Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 348 Winchester Bullet Test...6 bullets at high and low speed.

Ok Today I went out early and shot 6 different 348 bullets into wet newsprint at velocities to simulate 50 yards and 200-300 yards. It was an interesting and surprising test.



A bullet I like is the 200 Flextip. It shoots well in my Win 71 (2MOA) keeps 1700fps out to 300 yards and has the best trajectory of the bullets I have used by 2-3 " or so at again 300 yards. I worried it might be overly explosive but thought the long shank would help. Turns out that it does and the bullet actually has pretty controlled expansion.



The 200 Flextip penetrated 9 inches when driven at 2350 ft/sec( 6 of wet news print then 3" into dry catalogues and phone-books). It retained nearly 90 grains of weight and hung onto some core. At 1800fps it hung onto 158.6 grains and started expanding but the core is actually a bit hard and this bullet has less violent expansion than I thought it would.

The 200 Hornady FN. I have been taking for granted. Actually it did fairly well. It hung onto 97.4grains at high speed, and 183.3 at low. It penetrated better that the A-Frame and actually expanded better than the Flex-Tip at 1800ft/sec. Wound channels were not that impressive how-ever but it actually seems like a good all round choice.




The 200 silvertip I haven't taken a picture of but it comes apart at high speed and barely expands at low. It is seen in my video. The 200 A-Frame is remarkable. It expands nearly the same at 2350 and 1800fps,(Alert..damn..I accidently mixed up a round on this one and the low speed H4895 was accidently substituted with a full power H414 load which would have been going about 2500fps... sorry will retest) Penetration is good, but the wide expansion at all speeds limits it to a bit less penetration than the 200 Hornady. I am sure though that it would be better on tough bone. Very well built bullet, relaible +++++



Of course I was wrong about the A-Frame. I mixed up a 2500ft/sec round that I was testing for accuracy with the 1800fps one. Went out tonight and tested the 1800fps (estimated) round. It expanded much less, but still made a fairly good wound channel. Penetration increased and the bullet ran nice and straight with no tumbling. Average penetration is almost as good as the Woodleigh with adding this bullet.



The 220 Barnes Original penetrates about the same as the 200 A-Frame. It will core separate once the jacket has expanded past the cannelure but this is always after pretty good penetration. The soft core and jacket really open up nicely and this was the best expander of the test. Great wound channels.



The 250 woodleigh was the best penetrator. Interestingly one at low speed began to tumble and wrecked itself (though still weighing 197.2 grains. This is due in part because I load the bullet down to simulate long range and lose some rotational speed and stability. Good bullet for Bison... I think though I'll go 200 A-Frame or 220 Barnes for moose.


Video here if you want to see more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OaJcGjEBfo

Here is the 250 Woodleigh..forgot to post it above

Hell of a nice test North, I appreciate it greatly, I bought an old '71 deluxe from BSA here at the 'fire, my Gunsmith had 4 boxes of the old Barnes 250 gr bullets, i bought them because they were there and he sold them at the very fair price of 20 bucks a box out the door.

I developed my load with them using RL-17 powder for a vel of 2350 fps, they shoot good through the factory bolt peep, I've only shot one deer with this combo, IIRC the wt deer was around 55 yards, hit it in the shoulder, it dropped with a complete bullet pass through, so I didn't get to recover one for examination and weighing.

When I get these shot up, I'll more than likely develop a new load using the 250 gr Woodleighs.

The Woodleigh is a good bullet. Going to retest the A-Frame tonight. I accidently substituted my full power load at 2500fps for the light load at 1800fps. Wondered why the slower round had such a good wound channel and bulged the bullet back of the A-Frame when compared to the 2350fps load tested! Sorry about that. My you-tube video is going to be harder to set right.

I'll watch the youtube video when i have time to take a few notes, at the same time I'll be wishing that Swift would make a 250 gr A-Frame, talk about a ball peen hammer headed bone punch!

The A-Frame has a nice thin jacket at the opening to promote expansion but it tapers nicely to support a big mushroom... hard to imagine better construction.

North,
Nice job on the tests!
Thank goodness I am through trying different types 0f bullets in my .405 rifles! I know what works and am sticking with it.
I am just now about to drop charges of N133 into 20 cases before seating 400 grain .411 Woodies. Then off to the range to see if my .405 double likes any of the loads ( 1800, 1900, and 2000 fps).
If so, I will post the results. if not, it will be back to the drawing board.

A 405 double would be quite the rig for North America. How does it regulate?

The double is regulated with 300 grain Hornady spire point bullets at 2100 fps and does this at 100 yards:
with peep sight -


With scope sight-


In my 1895 .405, the 400 grain bullets shoot about 4 inches lower than the 300 grain bullets at 100 yards, so rather than the six o'clock hold used for the 300 grains, I just put the bead on what I want to hit and it works great(especially for big critters). If this holds true for the double, I will be quite pleased!

You guys got it going on with all things 348W North, I need to get busy and swat a timber elk with mine, I'd feel completely comfortable doing so with the old heavy jacketed Barnes 250 grainer out to 200 yards or so.

[/quote]You guys got it going on with all things 348W North, I need to get busy and swat a timber elk with mine, I'd feel completely comfortable doing so with the old heavy jacketed Barnes 250 grainer out to 200 yards or so.[/quote]

Based on the performance of the 220 Barnes I bet the 250 would be a great low speed expander!

thanks for all the work and for posting the pics here.

Charlie

You are welcome...I am surprised at the number of projectiles available for the 348. Things are looking much better than when Ken Waters did his Pet Loads article. Too bad Winchester didn't make brass on a more regular basis. Finally found some privately and it was priced according to it's scarcity.

I have a few hundred Win brass. But, Jamison is good brass, too, and available all the time. Note that Jamison has a tad less volume, so watch your powder load.

I find I have to cut loads down quite a bit in the Jamieson brass. Just got 163 rounds of mostly new 348 Brass from Winchester in the mail. Ought to keep me shooting a while.

Must be fairly old as it's loaded in the 20 round cardboard boxes originally labelled at 12.95 a box.

Great test, the hornadys and FTX both did better than I would have expected. The silvertip did as expected, stopped using it years ago. I narrowed my bullet choice to the Woodleigh and Swift A-frame, but in my rifle the Woodleigh was by far the most accurate. Have recoved 250 Woodleighs from 2 moose and they have performed perfectly. Thanks for posting! When Wincester made a run of 200gr Power points a couple years ago, bought a good supply for when hunting in area's without brown bears, so far haven't used any. Curious what anyones experience with the Power points has been?

I will add my voice to the chorus...thank you for your time and effort doing these tests. Not many of us still shooting a .348 so your tests are very much appreciated!

It was fun to do this test and a pleasure to talk to find people interested in this. Believe me when I say my friends and family are completely uninterested. I can actually hear crickets chirping when I bring it up!

The Hornady's are thin jacketed enough that the jacket can split releasing the core. Thy usually do fairly well though. The Woodleigh can also suffer a jacket split but the core still stays attached so weight retention is guaranteed. The A-Frame seems absolutely reliable but doesn't shoot as well as the Woodleigh, which is the most accurate bullet in my rifle as well.

I have found by throttling down the speed on the Hornady 200 FN's to 2400fps I have them shooting about 2 inches higher than the Woodleighs. I think I'll use these two loads and practice and caribou hunt with the cheaper Hornady FN's and use the 250's at 2250 for Moose and Bison.

My turn to say thank you for your tests. I just bought my first 71, 1937 long tang with the bolt peep. I think that you just saved me a ton of work!

My pleasure but shooting these 71's is so much fun that I don't deprive you of your own experimentation.

To complete this photo-essay here is the 348 Silvertip 200 grain. They create a nice wound channel in the first 70% of travel but generally lose the core after that and this limits penetration. They also don't expand very well at slow speeds. The 200 Hornady FN is a better bullet. These would still no doubt kill deer very well though...even big deer.

Thanks for this post, very good. Here are pictures of a 200 grain Silvertip that went thru both shoulders of a Wisconsin whitetail buck at about 50 yards and lodged in the hide. Expansion is .74 at widest and .51 and narrowest.

That worked pretty well! Bet you he didn't go far!

About 3 feet straight down! It is the only 200 grain Silvertip that I ever recovered from a whitetail. All the rest passed through so I have no clue how those bullets performed. I really enjoyed your tests as I have always wanted to try different bullets in the 348.

North61, just enjoyed your youtube vids, good stuff.

How would you rate the recoil between the .405 & the .348?

41

The 405 has more recoil for sure but it's still pretty easy to handle if you have a decent recoil pad. The old style crescent steel butt plates are quite horrible and probably the reason the 405's had such a bad reputation for kick. A 300 grain bullet propelled at 22-2400fps isn't too bad in a modern context.

That little 300 gr Woodleigh would be the shizzle loafing along at a comfortable 2150 from a 405.

Nice work Milwroad.

I would like to see how the 250 gr Alaska Bullet Works performs.

Is it a bonded bullet Ed?

Found it, yes they're bonded, that bullet looks damn good Ed, and cheaper than the 250 Woodies.

I appreciate the information North61. That must have been fun. I bought up a bunch of Winchester Silver Tip 348 when I got my first 348. It is a Franz Sodia double and shoots that load great. Still working on creating empty brass and not reloading yet. My 71 deluxe loves that load too. All shots on game have been complete pass through. No recovered projectiles to this point. Our deer are not huge.

It was lots of fun...a fine couple of forum members are going to get me some 250 Win Silvertips and the old 180 Speers. I also have a small supply of Winchester Super-speed Luballoy bullets in 200 grains. I will retest in the summer with all the bullets I can get together. I think I can do a more complete job.

I discovered them when I bought a Bowen 500 Linebaugh package from a guy in Alaska years ago. Part of the package was their 450 gr FP's. They proved to be darn accurate (guessing Bowen played in that ) though I have yet to kill something with them. Go kill a buffalo....

Excellent practical research, thanks for your efforts.

I have used Hawk Bullets-(Glenrock, WY-now HawksBridge,NJ)
They perform like Woodleighs but have a variety of weights.
Handloader Magazine thinks highly of them. Another source
for bonded 250 gr bullets is Alaska Bullet Works in Juneau.

I have two(2) early Model 71 rifles in 348 Ackley Improved.
It actually delivers close to 200 FPS more than the parent
348 WCF. J. Kronfeld did an article on this cartridge for Handloader.

Its very similar to a 35 Whelen in a lever action M-71. Recoil is
not that objectionable- in Alaska. Used a 270 gr Hawk bullet to
stop a large interior moose at 90 yards. Nice to have in bear country.LtCol RM

The Alaska Bullet Works 250 grain bullet is bonded core
and works very well in the 348 WCF or the 348 Ackley.
The Ackley chambering was popular in Alaska because it
gave the 348 the ballistics of a .35 Whelen. It does require
careful reloading and good bullets. Barnes 250 gr
bullets were used in the Canadian -Alaskan bush country
with great success. Combining a 270 gr Hawk bullet into
the 348 Ackley case allows hunters in the frozen
north to hunt moose while being pretty well armed
for a chance bear encounter. Dave Scovill of Handloader
fame uses Hawk bullets in many calibers with success
from bear to plains buffalo in the west. Bullet
tests for accuracy and performance are a good idea
for hunting with the .348 WCF cartridges.

Yes, 500lbs of Bison in the freezer is a very good thing.

North61, thanks for posting this. Interesting info, for sure!

This is great information North61 and I really appreciate you taking time to share it with us.

Hey, North61, do you know this guy??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmNG2npnBrM

Yes I have heard tell of him. A bit long winded isn't he?

Thanks to a couple of American Friends I have some more bullets to test.. the great 250 grain Silvertip and the Old 180 SpeerFN's
I'll also retest my old stash with three shots eat at high and low to give myself a bit more statistical reliability. Going to have to collect a bunch of newspaper!

Video of new bullets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xho8xz7xB_Y&t=3s

405 is quite a bit more. Neither is ferocious by today's standards but the 405 can get your attention. The 348 has both less momentum and better stock design.

Just to let you know that I've certainly enjoyed and appreciated your youtube videos. Beautiful family you have!

Ahwww....thanks Mate!

That's some really good stuff there, Mr North 61.

Not sure what you do for a living, but you may have missed your calling!

Oh well, you may not get paid for this, but you're good at it!

I hope to turn a Woodleigh or Hawk loose on a Moose one day, from either my 45-70 or my 450-400 NE.




Tim

Good follow-up work, North.

Have you seen or been exposed to North Fork 230 gr bonded bullets? They are made in Oregon, and are
a unique design. The 230 gr weight is almost perfect for the 348 WCF chambering.
These and Alaska Bullet works offer good premium bullets at fair prices-for what you get.


Keep up the good work. Fuller.

Thanks Mate. I make coffee money on my youtube channel. Soon to retire from the public service so I can canoe, hunt and look for gold full time! Going to love that!

Living the dream North61!

This is a later response to your excellent research and detailed scientific approach. Many thanks.

I have use 200 gr Silvertips,Barnes 250s, Hornady 200FPs, Alaska Bullet Works 250 Bonded Core, and custom weights in the Hawk Bullet from 190-to 300 gr.
Yes-Andy Hill at Hawk made up a 4-box run of 225 GR bullets and others up to 300 gr-the 300gr for .348 Ackley Improved.
I sometimes think the ideal bullet weight for all-around use may be around 220-230 grs. It has enough mass and can be pushed to around 2375-2400 FPS in most
originally chambered 348WCF rifles. The bullet construction, that being said-is probably more important than bullet weight once
weight goes above a nominal 200 grains.

I have some boxes of original 250 gr bullets in "Standing Bear" boxes but I am reluctant to use those because of rarity and value. John Kronfeld and
Harold Johnson tested them- and Johnson found their performance on large bears as poor to unacceptable.
I am intrigued by the good luck you had with the Hornady FP 200 gr bullet. I tend to think it out performs the 200 gr Silvertip and Remington older 200
gr corelokt bullet.

The only bullet that I want to try out-is the 230 gr North Fork bullet, which the founder of North Fork wanted unchanged due to its performance as a bonded core 230 gr. The Woodleighs and the Alaska Bullet Works bullets are both 250 gr bonded core bullets-with close to identical performance.

When spring comes to northwest Wyoming, I'll test the Winchester 200 power point into gallon milk jugs. I can add something in front of the jugs if you'd like. The Hornady 200 grain flat did go through six jugs and stayed in the seventh. Nicely expanded and I don't recall the weight. Still have the fluff in the loading room

This is a later response to your excellent research and detailed scientific approach. Many thanks.

I have use 200 gr Silvertips,Barnes 250s, Hornady 200FPs, Alaska Bullet Works 250 Bonded Core, and custom weights in the Hawk Bullet from 190-to 300 gr.
Yes-Andy Hill at Hawk made up a 4-box run of 225 GR bullets and others up to 300 gr-the 300gr for .348 Ackley Improved.
I sometimes think the ideal bullet weight for all-around use may be around 220-230 grs. It has enough mass and can be pushed to around 2375-2400 FPS in most
originally chambered 348WCF rifles. The bullet construction, that being said-is probably more important than bullet weight once
weight goes above a nominal 200 grains.

I have some boxes of original 250 gr bullets in "Standing Bear" boxes but I am reluctant to use those because of rarity and value. John Kronfeld and
Harold Johnson tested them- and Johnson found their performance on large bears as poor to unacceptable.
I am intrigued by the good luck you had with the Hornady FP 200 gr bullet. I tend to think it out performs the 200 gr Silvertip and Remington older 200
gr corelokt bullet.

The only bullet that I want to try out-is the 230 gr North Fork bullet, which the founder of North Fork wanted unchanged due to its performance as a bonded core 230 gr. The Woodleighs and the Alaska Bullet Works bullets are both 250 gr bonded core bullets-with close to identical performance.

I like the look of that North Fork. I also like an intermediate bullet weight. I find that different bullet weights print to a very different point of impact. I like the performance of 200 Flex-Tips for caribou and I don't want to re-sight all the time. The 220 grain Barnes Original FP doesnt shoot that far out of synch with the 200 grainers. It does however core separate way too easily. Maybe the 230 grain bullet would be worth giving a try. Until then the 200 Swift is my heavy game bullet, the 200 Hornady FP a good mid size and range choice and the 200 Flextip for caribou. Pretty versatile unit.

Man, I might need to give some of the Northforks a shot. They are expanding SOBs!

Guys, given the expected range one would use the 348 (under 200 yards?) would it not make sense to use the 250 Woodleighs over the 200gr offerings on Moose or bison? North, I know you dropped a moose with the 200 Hornadys, but just wondering. My 71 shoots them ALL well. I'm also a North Fork user in various other calibers, so when you guys come up with a load, please share!

just because

su Thanks for bringing this back to light,,, I'm a new 348 owner and enjoy the heck out of it!!

I have a Mirkoru made Winchester Mod. 71 Deluxe Ackley Improved and a bunch of 250 grain bonded Kodiak Bullets from Alaska Bullet Works. It is the prettiest rifle I own with good wood and checkering and dark blue finish. I do wish the lever was a tad bigger, always something.

I like sitting in the big chair with it and watching hunting and Western shootem up's. I may be old, but I refuse to grow up! Hoping to shoot something with it someday.

Starline brass and H4350 powder and WLR primers and fear no beast!

Long time Alaskan bear guide Phil Shoemaker thinks highly of the Kodiak bullets, that's about as good a recommendation as a bullet can get.

Years ago I picked up some of the old 200 Barnes X FN. They expand into 6 petals and shoot well out of rifle. I should've picked up some of the 220s as well. I had shot them with the 200 Hornady's into some jugs, not much of a test I know, but I'm sure the Barnes will penetrate quite well:

So Alaska Bullet Works is closed permanently?

Woodleigh bullet factory had a fire. Tough to find bullets for someone new to the 348.

Anyone tried the Hammer Bullets 157grain? Seems awful light for

Cool thread. I wish my eye sight was better in my left eye. I would go and buy the beautiful all original long tang deluxe, with bolt peep, I saw the other day. Those Hornady bullets look like they work great. I know where a bunch of those are too.


They were $37/box and at a different store..

Very nice! I need to warm up my 348 a little. Been awhile.

Hey 163 dm

The owner and founder of Alaska Bullet Works went to his reward a couple of years ago and his widow sold the equipment to a guy from Sitka and I have not heard of him offering bullets yet. Fortunately for me, I was able to stock up on the heavy jacketed 250 grain bonded bullets for my .348 Ackley Improved. It is a very useful and versatile round for a peep sighted lever gun in Alaska, where most shots are taken under 150 yards

If I could get my hands on a couple hundred of the 220 grain Barnes X .348 bullets I would grab them. I have been running Barnes X bullets of some flavor in my three bolt guns and have since the late 80's.

I'm reading mixed reviews on Hammer bullets. I loaded up some of the 203 grain Shock Hammers for our Mod. 94 Big Bore .356 Win. Hoped to poke a moose with one but did not happen yet. They are very long for their weight and the 223 grain version way to long for the little 94 action.

I'm still surprised Hornady stopped making them...I got all I need but at that price, I'd grab them....never know when a nice 348 may come across your way!




Same here, haven't' shot mine in a while and I want to run some RL17 in it.

That's what I use in mine. I have kinda stuck with the 200 Hornady's or 250 Woodys.. No idea what I'll use to replace the Woodys once my stash is gone. 17 is good though.

Beretz: I use Varget for the 200 Hornadys and H-4350 for the Woodleighs (thanks to Mule Deer) I was impressed with your results and RL-17 but my 71 did not like it. I'm going to try the loads on my jap 71s and see what happens.

Hard to beat any of the combo's you listed as well. I think when I started loading for the 348 I had a ton of 17, and everyone said H4350 worked, so on a hunch I figured I'd try 17.

I can't remember if I tried Varget with the 200s or not, I'll have to check my notes. Mines the Browning and it shoots well so hopefully it likes RL17.

Unless I'm missing something, looks like Huntington's still has some Woodleigh's:

https://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=19954

Current .348 available/ currently made bullets in 2022: Hawk, Swift, Hammers and what you can find on dealer shelves. Best to stock up on
what you might find. May be dry for awhile

North Forks web site lists a 230 grain bonded .348 bullet that looks good to me. Also, a friend texted me a pic of a prototype 250 grain .348 bullet from Fury Custom Bullets. Said it has a .025 jacket, all I know and can't find it on their web site yet. Maybe if they hear from enough .348 users they will become available.

For Alaska and peep sight use I am mainly wanting a heavy jacketed bonded 250 grain bullet for my .348 Ackley Improved. That and 50 years of moose hunting has given me and average of 150 yards for the first shot at a moose.

Before he passed I had several conversations over the years with Karl Mielke, the owner of Alaska Bullet Works. He said he was only offering heavy jacketed versions of his bullets because it's what most Alaskan's, especially guides wanted. He said his bonded bullets started at .025 at the nose and tapered to .050 at the base. That ensured expansion as velocity dropped off and if bones were not hit. He also said the thick tapering jacket kept the bullet together up close on heavy bones and big animals. Think brown bear and moose.

I heard good things about the Woodleigh bullets, like Swift they are spendy and I just never needed them since I had Kodiak bullets and Partitions and Barnes X of some flavor. Since the Woodleigh factory burnt down the few remaining bullets ain't getting any cheaper.

It always comes down to the right bullet being put into the right place at sufficient impact velocity.

I'd like to try the 200 grain Swifts. I'd bet those at 2500 would be a sure thing.

After using some flavor of a Barnes X bullet on Alaskan game since the late 80's and having splendid results, I would love to have a big supply of 220 grain Barnes X bullets for the .348 Win. One of those out of my .348 Ackley Improved should give 2,600 fps mv or more. Plenty of good straight line penetration with a exit hole.

If I was living state side I would want a 200 grain bullet and the Hornady would deliver. But, I also would not pack the big and heavy Mod. 71 Winchester, instead I would use our .356 Winchester Big Bore and my modified 225 grain Nosler Partitions or the 203 grain Fury bullets. Instead of 9 lbs. loaded I would be under 7 lbs. even if I opted for the little Leupy 1.5-5 with the German #4 reticle.

So many guns and bullets and so little time on earth, woe is me!

I wish I'd have bought some 220 X bullets when I bought the 200s. I bet they penetrate as well as lead core 250s.

Why not use the Hammers M1? I mean I don’t see anything Barnes whooping a Hammer and they are available.

Never mind, they don’t make a 200+ grain option, yet.

I have a bunch of the 200 X, which shoots pretty well so I think I'm set there. I'd like to see Hammer make a heavier in the 215-230 range. I like how they do samplers too.

Might be worth asking for. No harm in that. I’d be in to try them myself if they made a 200+

True, maybe I'll email then and see what they say.