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Phil, really glad you were able to work all the wrinkles out in your most recent endeavor. There really isn't anything like experience in tough spots.
I don't view spray, pistols, or long guns as mutually exclusive. Each has a use. My experience using spray is that It gets on you every time you use it. I can deal with that, although I don't like it. Spray has been very effective for me on grizzly bears, black bears, moose, and dogs. I like it. I don't view it as spray vs guns. Here in the lower 48 States I really don't think effectiveness boils down to young or old bear, habituated or not. The failures I am familiar with regarding spray mostly involve environmental conditions. Although how you define a failure is important to me. Each tool has a use. Certain tools are useless in certain situations. I don't ever go looking for a fight with a bear simply armed with a pistol.
I feel D Smith's evaluation of spray vs guns is unfair in the situations it compares. Wounded bears vs a bear some jogger runs into for example. Not really apples to apples. But i do like spray, for me it's easy to use, light, and cheap. But it doesn't fit every situation. While it has always worked in the situations I chose to use it, there are certain situations I would not even attempt using it.
I've killed a few grizzlies at spitting distance. I know they aren't monster brown bears but bear with me... Some went well, others did not. The outcome in these situations hinged entirely on the initial shots. In my experience the first or second shot were all that mattered. Maybe with a smaller more controlable round it would have been different??
I really like a good horse and good dog in bear country. They are way more aware and effective than I. But your brain isn't a bad tool to use in bear country either.
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Campfire Tracker
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wwy, I admire your experience and agree with you about bear spray. I still carry a can on most trips. I prefer it's non-lethal, educational effect and have used it a few times, mostly to educate young bears or deter "teenage" boars testing how far they can push humans.
Spray, and the Kimber "PepperBlaster", can be carried and used, even in campgrounds and other public areas, by people incompetent with firearms, without the fear of someone getting shot. they are also perfect around town and rural areas with agressive dogs too. And from my limited use, they are effective.
But no one tool is perfect and if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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wwy, I admire your experience and agree with you about bear spray. I still carry a can on most trips. I prefer it's non-lethal, educational effect and have used it a few times, mostly to educate young bears or deter "teenage" boars testing how far they can push humans.
Spray, and the Kimber "PepperBlaster", can be carried and used, even in campgrounds and other public areas, by people incompetent with firearms, without the fear of someone getting shot. they are also perfect around town and rural areas with agressive dogs too. And from my limited use, they are effective.
But no one tool is perfect and if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. Absolutely agree, especially the concern over armed incompetents in crowded areas. Kodiak has far more than its share on the road system.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Tracker
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It's not just Kodiak, all of Alaska has more than it's share !
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Brad,
We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night. I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.
LC I spoke with a Game warden a few years ago about grizzlies here. He said officially there are none here, but the department was investigating claims of a guide, who had a ton of experience guiding in Alaska, that he had seen a Grizzly in the northern part of the state.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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OK where in Anchorage can you buy BB 9MM 147 Gr cast bullet loads? Shipping not an option. Checked and called all the shops I know, Grace does not show it as an option?
When you ask for it be prepared for what are u thinking ?
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As I said, this only happened a few days ago and the clients have left and I still have to turn the hide, skull and paperwork over to F&G in King Salmon this week. Like any shooting incident, it will take a little time for all involved to process and is not something to seek notoriety for. But it can be used as a learning experience and I have yet to decided how much and where I want to share it. It is a coincidence that this forum topic, , my recent testing of 9mm and 357 Buffalo Bore ammo and then this incident came about at the same time.
The quick takeaway is to use common sense, listen to advice gained by experience, and take time to become comfortable and confident with your weapon of choice.
Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore ammo, designed ammo for the "lessor" handgun calibers specifically for people who didn't want to expend the money and time to gain profeciency with large caliber handguns but still wanted something that gave them a resonable chance of surviving highly unlikely encounters like this with a handgun that they already own and are familiar with.
I had originally offered my article of my testing with the ammo to Lee Hoots, the editor at Wolfe Publishing, but he says he is not interested as there is not sufficient interest in the subject. I will eventually explore the possibility of working with AK F&G or somewhere where the topic is relevent.
Oh, and as much as I appreciated the light weight of the little 9mm, it's larger magazine capacity and ability to rapidly make multiple hits, I am not yet ready to give up either my S&W M-65 357 or my S&W 44 Mtn Gun ! And the jury is still out on whether a pistol like my son's Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh would have been an asset or a detriment as complete pass throughs could have endangered others. Plus I was able to achieve 3 hits with the 9mm, each eliciting a response from the bear, by the time it would have taken me to recover and shoot a second shot from the SA Linebaugh. I shot a grizzly on the Kelly River in 1988 with a 475 Linebaugh that came in on me while cleaning a moose. I was shooting a LBT 390 grain LFN that I cast out of wheel weights and water quenched. My friend hit the bear first with a 250 partition out of a 338 win. The bear went down and imediatley got up up as if spring loaded. From my angle I hit the bear in the back of the rib cage angling toward the off shoulder. At the shot the bear went straight down with a four legs straight out and never got up again. This was the first bear and moose ever shot with the 475 Linebaugh. I was impressed with the performance of these big bore revolvers then and now when loaded and shot properly. u Great job under pressure ,Phil! The right shaped hard cast bullet with proper meplat even at moderate velocities is indeed a stellar killer, good shooting to you both JWP and Phil!
Trump Won!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Pepper spray might work in many situations.
I'll save the pepper for my food. These two statements sum it up for me. I've never had to shoot a bear but have been in a couple of weird situations at close range. A gun feels much mo' better than a can of spray. A person really needs to be within 20 feet of a 500+ plus bear to grasp how insecure a guy can feel - especially when there's no where to go. Same here, if I had but a 9mm in my hand when a grizzly appeared at 6' I'd probably start shooting myself with the damn thing, there is NO replacement for experience! That's the truth. I sent the story to a guy I know that has seen bears on TV and hunted deer once when he was about 14yrs old. He called and started with how he would have had blah blah, I said stop right there because you would have done the same thing I would have, chit your pants and blowed your damn feet off trying to drag whatever you have out of your holster. Those people were lucky to have 458Win with them. Had it been someone like me the only thing that wasn't injured by gun fire would have been the bear. LMAO , you GD right Bearcat, I watched a Wyo mountain grizzly from the next draw over[125 yards] for a couple hundred yards, and knew then and there I was in the presence of a killing machine, the feeling of impending and instant death was mind numbing, I could feel and hear my heart beat! Anyone that can't respect that is one dorky bastidge that needs to go back home and get back on the couch. I can't imagine the level of cool resolve and experience one would have to posses dealing with one like 458 did at 6 damn feet, and yes, those clients couldn't have won a better guide in a damn lottery!
Trump Won!
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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OK where in Anchorage can you buy BB 9MM 147 Gr cast bullet loads? Shipping not an option. Checked and called all the shops I know, Grace does not show it as an option?
When you ask for it be prepared for what are u thinking ?
3 Bears Kenai carries it but is out. Might have it in a week or so. They have the 124 gr. as does Gator Guns. FYI if you get down this way. I can drop off at artsy's if I make a trip to the big city.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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Campfire Regular
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Brad,
We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night. I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.
LC I spoke with a Game warden a few years ago about grizzlies here. He said officially there are none here, but the department was investigating claims of a guide, who had a ton of experience guiding in Alaska, that he had seen a Grizzly in the northern part of the state. 1979 a man named Wiseman was mauled by the grizzly he killed somewhere east of Pagosa Springs, Colorado almost into New Mexico. I remember thinking that it was possible that bear traveled through the 55 mile territory of railroad I was working at the time. Everyone said there wasn't any grizzly around but looking at the area I couldn't savvy why not. Sometimes on the news it is mentioned that our troop casualty rate might be say, 1%. I have long concluded that if you are the one involved it is 100% to you. My thinking on bears is along the same bent and has been ever since that guy was mauled by the bear that wasn't there.
Last edited by Captain; 07/30/16.
NRA Benefactor Member
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizenry still gets to vote!"
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Campfire Outfitter
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The Bear season in Oregon starts August first. I have been climbing a ridge to a vantage point on a private cattle ranch to look for bears in the wild fruit trees, and the black berries. I am up there until is it's too dark to see and then hike the 45 minutes back the the ATV for the several mile ride to the ranch gate. On my way down Saturday, I was using the trail the cowboys use for the horses, they keep it limbed and open enough to walk at a good pace with a headlamp. Down the trail I go, when I hear a loud Woof and the unmistakable sound of a bear clicking it's teeth. I carry a .44 mag S&W mountain gun with crimson trace grips. As I looked around toward the sound I could see this bear,... head down ears back,... and ready to rock and roll. I'm at 15 yards, Maybe..... maybe 12? I froze to see her next move, removing the revolver and putting the red dot on the brain. ( one reason you must always have the holster on the outside of your jacket or coat, no time to fumble with zippers and buttons. It's not as easy to hold steady as you might imagine. She keeps clicking her teeth, and now I am hearing the sounds of bark scraping on the tree behind her. Certainly cubs climbing up. I cannot turn to walk away and take my eyes off of her. I'm in a bit of a bind in the dark having to wait on her to turn and leave. It was not a comfortable situation to turn my back on her for me to walk away. I reached for my iPhone to use the flash on her. This was the resulting picture. It did nothing by the way, she was just locked on me, in the starting blocks waiting for my next move. Thankfully the cowboys trail was rather nice, except for the sticks and rocks, it was not a bad path. I was able to slowly walk backwards hoping I did not trip and fall. I made it around a bend in the trail and then hauled my butt up the ridge to the ATV. I'm not sure how the rest of the season will go with her and her cubs in this place. If you are serious about the use of a handgun for bear protection, regardless of what you choose, the crimson trace grips are a priceless addition to the design. It would have been extremely difficult to use open sights in this situation, and I have trijicon night sights on this gun too. However with a head lamp on those night sights are not usable it's too bright without being properly aligned for the sights to be functionally visible in the dark. Things you should figure out before you are in this situation!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The Bear season in Oregon starts August first. I have been climbing a ridge to a vantage point on a private cattle ranch to look for bears in the wild fruit trees, and the black berries. I am up there until is it's too dark to see and then hike the 45 minutes back the the ATV for the several mile ride to the ranch gate. On my way down Saturday, I was using the trail the cowboys use for the horses, they keep it limbed and open enough to walk at a good pace with a headlamp. Down the trail I go, when I hear a loud Woof and the unmistakable sound of a bear clicking it's teeth. I carry a .44 mag S&W mountain gun with crimson trace grips. As I looked around toward the sound I could see this bear,... head down ears back,... and ready to rock and roll. I'm at 15 yards, Maybe..... maybe 12? I froze to see her next move, removing the revolver and putting the red dot on the brain. ( one reason you must always have the holster on the outside of your jacket or coat, no time to fumble with zippers and buttons. It's not as easy to hold steady as you might imagine. She keeps clicking her teeth, and now I am hearing the sounds of bark scraping on the tree behind her. Certainly cubs climbing up. I cannot turn to walk away and take my eyes off of her. I'm in a bit of a bind in the dark having to wait on her to turn and leave. It was not a comfortable situation to turn my back on her for me to walk away. I reached for my iPhone to use the flash on her. This was the resulting picture. It did nothing by the way, she was just locked on me, in the starting blocks waiting for my next move. Thankfully the cowboys trail was rather nice, except for the sticks and rocks, it was not a bad path. I was able to slowly walk backwards hoping I did not trip and fall. I made it around a bend in the trail and then hauled my butt up the ridge to the ATV. I'm not sure how the rest of the season will go with her and her cubs in this place. If you are serious about the use of a handgun for bear protection, regardless of what you choose, the crimson trace grips are a priceless addition to the design. It would have been extremely difficult to use open sights in this situation, and I have trijicon night sights on this gun too. However with a head lamp on those night sights are not usable it's too bright without being properly aligned for the sights to be functionally visible in the dark. Things you should figure out before you are in this situation! While I have CT crips on several hand guns and really like them they are illegal for hunting in AK which makes them only practical in dedicated bear ad bad people defense guns. It is not legal to shoot grouse with one, for example.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Outfitter
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In this case it works for me, I'm a bow hunter and only carry this S&W for this exact purpose.
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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In this case it works for me, I'm a bow hunter and only carry this S&W for this exact purpose. I understand completely and agree it is the way to go, just pointing out how it relates to AK bear protection. And obviously I am not suggesting bear defense and hunting are the same thing.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've carried that revolver for all my recreational bow hunting. AS well as my job in Alaska and in South Africa, and in Wa. State as the wildlife manager for Weyco.
It has been carried about 1000 miles for every time I had to pull it from the holster for a "situation". In cases like the one above, Ive no complaints with the weight or the burden of packing it. That little revolver has killed hundreds of bears in it's life with me. Somethings just fit with a guy. Anyone that finds that "fit" will have greater success then just depending upon the stamp on the barrel, or the brand of ammo.
As for Pepper spray, It only took one time to have the wind blow it into my face and be blinded while in a bad situation to never EVER want to have that happen again!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As for Pepper spray, It only took one time to have the wind blow it into my face and be blinded while in a bad situation to never EVER want to have that happen again!
Exactly!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Tracker
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Police carry pepper spray for the same reason that hikers, backpackers and outdoorsmen carry it. It is often the best solution to diffuse a situation without having to kill the threat and the lethal means is in no way compromised.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Police carry pepper spray for the same reason that hikers, backpackers and outdoorsmen carry it. It is often the best solution to diffuse a situation without having to kill the threat and the lethal means is in no way compromised. Exactly!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Ranger
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And for those who wanted to know about penetration here is a photo showing both the entrance and exit with the bullet still in place. this shot was not well placed as it was too far back and too high, but he was highly agitated and twisting and biting each time I hit him.
Phil... I have no doubts about a hard cast 9mm bullet's ability to penetrate, so I'm not surprised at the entry-exit wounds. What I would like to know is what internal structures did the bullet transect internally? Clearly some vascular structure(s) was/were hit, but with that rapid incapacitation I wonder if you might have hit the thoracic spine?
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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