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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Originally Posted by CraigC
Much of what Linebaugh wrote comparing the .45Colt to the .44Mag no longer holds water.

A 6" model 29 is 2oz heavier than a 4 5/8" Ruger Bisley .44Mag.

You guys obviously haven't spent much time with SA's to think they carry awkwardly or are slow to manipulate.


How's the leather business?

How is that any of your business and what does it have to do with the .45Colt discussion???

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If one wants a double action in 454 colt the Ruger RedHawk and Super Rehawks are hard to beat for top end loads.

I have acctual shot a grizzled that came in on a moose kill in 1988. I used a Ruger Bisley in 475 Linebaugh and the moose and grizzly were the first ever shot with that cartridge.

Personally I like the single actions the best for in field use.

Last edited by jwp475; 06/16/16.


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Originally Posted by CraigC
You guys obviously haven't spent much time with SA's to think they carry awkwardly or are slow to manipulate.


That's a mighty bold statement, mister.

I could retort by remarking that your post shows that you haven't spent much time reading John Linebaugh's work, but I have no way of knowing that so I won't disparage your apparent ignorance.

But feel free to comment on what I do or don't know based on zero real knowledge on your part. It's entertaining.


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John, there's no doubt the Super Redhawk is a wonderful heavy-duty DA revolver. I had a chance to buy a Bowen Alaskan(Hamilton Bowen's "lightweight" version of the Redhawk) a few years ago, and failed to close the deal. I won't make that mistake again if the opportunity arises! eI'm contemplating trying again this winter. The .50 AE chambering is particularly attractive, to my mind.


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I have a RedHawk with a Dan Wesson barrel system that is a switch caliber. I am not found of the looks of the Super Rehawk, but they do have a superior trigger system.

My switch caliber I can change between 44 mag/spec and 45 colt/454 Casull and soon475/480 as well. I really like this revolver it is very accurate and fun to shoot



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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by CraigC
You guys obviously haven't spent much time with SA's to think they carry awkwardly or are slow to manipulate.


That's a mighty bold statement, mister.

I could retort by remarking that your post shows that you haven't spent much time reading John Linebaugh's work, but I have no way of knowing that so I won't disparage your apparent ignorance.

But feel free to comment on what I do or don't know based on zero real knowledge on your part. It's entertaining.

Jesus, everyone here is so quick to get their panties in a bunch. How could I refute John's writing without having read it??? crazy

Fact is, I read it long ago and took it as gospel for years. That is, until Hodgdon released their heavy bullet .44Mag data.
If you compare heavy loads in both cartridges with comparable guns you will see comparable results. Linebaugh writes as if there is a palpable difference between the two. Maybe there was 30yrs ago when he wrote "Dissolving the Myth..." but it does not hold true today. The .45 holds no advantage, except that it is sometimes bigger. Its size advantage is not even present in every example. One must compare individual bullets to find what .45's are actually bigger than what .44's. Commercial LFN's are a virtual wash. In WFN's, it depends on what mold it came from. The .44 is almost universally a better penetrator.

All of which conflicts with Linebaugh's writings, which are somewhat outdated.

As far as DA vs. SA, if you've spent enough time with both you should be able to manipulate an SA fast enough to negate any advantage a DA might have. I'm talking about guns with significant recoil. You should also recognize that the only advantage a DA has in reloading is with speedloaders. This discussion usually only takes place with DA shooters who never spent enough time with SA's to become proficient with them.

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Here is a nice single action .45 for packing. It has a 3 3/4 inch barrel and a Bisley hammer conversion for great one handed cocking...


[Linked Image]


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Oooh! That is nice!


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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Originally Posted by CraigC
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by CraigC
You guys obviously haven't spent much time with SA's to think they carry awkwardly or are slow to manipulate.


That's a mighty bold statement, mister.

I could retort by remarking that your post shows that you haven't spent much time reading John Linebaugh's work, but I have no way of knowing that so I won't disparage your apparent ignorance.

But feel free to comment on what I do or don't know based on zero real knowledge on your part. It's entertaining.

Jesus, everyone here is so quick to get their panties in a bunch. How could I refute John's writing without having read it??? crazy

Fact is, I read it long ago and took it as gospel for years. That is, until Hodgdon released their heavy bullet .44Mag data.
If you compare heavy loads in both cartridges with comparable guns you will see comparable results. Linebaugh writes as if there is a palpable difference between the two. Maybe there was 30yrs ago when he wrote "Dissolving the Myth..." but it does not hold true today. The .45 holds no advantage, except that it is sometimes bigger. Its size advantage is not even present in every example. One must compare individual bullets to find what .45's are actually bigger than what .44's. Commercial LFN's are a virtual wash. In WFN's, it depends on what mold it came from. The .44 is almost universally a better penetrator.

All of which conflicts with Linebaugh's writings, which are somewhat outdated.

As far as DA vs. SA, if you've spent enough time with both you should be able to manipulate an SA fast enough to negate any advantage a DA might have. I'm talking about guns with significant recoil. You should also recognize that the only advantage a DA has in reloading is with speedloaders. This discussion usually only takes place with DA shooters who never spent enough time with SA's to become proficient with them.


I am not a velocity worshipper, but the fact of the matter is that the .45 Colt simply produces a bigger hole than the .44 -- period (assuming equally sized meplats -- and this is the only way to compare them). It is a bigger hammer -- period. That said, why are we discussing .44 Mag versus .45 Colt?

Back to the topic at hand....


Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Originally Posted by Whitworth1
It is a bigger hammer -- period.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, period. It's not universal. There is a lot of overlap and like I said, you have to look at individual bullets.

For example:
355gr .44 at 1130fps - TKO - 24.6, meplat .340"
360gr .45 at 1060fps - TKO - 24.6, meplat .355"

Same TKO score. The .45's meplat is only 0.015" larger but the .44 penetrated deeper in our tests. IMHO, these differences add up to angels dancing on a pinhead.

Another example:
310gr .44 at 1314fps - TKO - 25.0, meplat .370"
335gr .45 at 1225fps - TKO - 26.5, meplat .345"

Sectional density is comparable. The .45 penetrated an inch deeper but the .44 has a significantly larger meplat. In that comparison, despite a lower TKO score, the .44 is effectively "bigger".

In 300-330gr LFN's, the meplats are all the same. Yet the .44 penetrated deeper.

So I have to say, I don't see how anyone can honestly say that the .45 is "a bigger hammer - period". The two are neck and neck no matter how you look at it.

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Originally Posted by shrapnel
Here is a nice single action .45 for packing. It has a 3 3/4 inch barrel and a Bisley hammer conversion for great one handed cocking...

I find the standard hammer to be faster to manipulate. Further to reach but a more positive purchase.

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my 45 Colt wheel gun......

[Linked Image]


T R U M P W O N !

U L T R A M A G A !

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Originally Posted by CraigC
Originally Posted by shrapnel
Here is a nice single action .45 for packing. It has a 3 3/4 inch barrel and a Bisley hammer conversion for great one handed cocking...

I find the standard hammer to be faster to manipulate. Further to reach but a more positive purchase.


Have you ever found anything someone else does that you can't do better?


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Are the N frames 29 and 25 the same? Heat treated the same? Same steel and strength? Where is the weak link, the cylinder? Why?

Who has shot an N frame "loose" and what did you do about it?

Thanks.



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Originally Posted by CraigC
Originally Posted by Whitworth1
It is a bigger hammer -- period.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, period. It's not universal. There is a lot of overlap and like I said, you have to look at individual bullets.

For example:
355gr .44 at 1130fps - TKO - 24.6, meplat .340"
360gr .45 at 1060fps - TKO - 24.6, meplat .355"
.

So I have to say, I don't see how anyone can honestly say that the .45 is "a bigger hammer - period". The two are neck and neck no matter how you look at it.



The 44 is .429 and the 45 is .452 no matter larger the meplat on the 44 bullet the 45 can always have a larger meplat. A 90% meplat is larger in 45 caliber always has been always will be.



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Originally Posted by jwp475
The 44 is .429 and the 45 is .452 no matter larger the meplat on the 44 bullet the 45 can always have a larger meplat. A 90% meplat is larger in 45 caliber always has been always will be.

It always 'can' but sometimes it doesn't. Theory is fine and dandy but I'm looking at what bullets are actually available. I tested what bullets are actually available and the results were not so cut & dried. The .44 in general was the better penetrator and the .45 is 'sometimes' bigger. IMHO, the net difference between the two is negligible. Until we start talking about the guns.


Originally Posted by shrapnel
Have you ever found anything someone else does that you can't do better?

I didn't say I could do anything better than anyone. A lot of people prefer the Bisley or Super Blackhawk hammers on their single actions. I'm not one of them. I find the standard hammer quicker & easier to manipulate. FOR ME!

Still testy because I ruined your fantasy that the SAA was designed in 1871??? whistle

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It is not theory it is simple math .452 is larger than .429. Stop cherry picking. Compare apples to apples as Whitworth posted when all is equall, meaning to same percent meplat. 80% meplat of both is a larger diameter in 452 than in 429.

.452 is .023 larger than .429, .476 is . 024 larger than .452, .500 is .024 larger than .476. By your logic the 44 is the same as 45, thus the 45 is the same as 475 and 475 is the same as 500, thus making the 44 equal to the 475 and 500, they are not equal.

Most if not all agree that 338 is larger than a 300 there is even less difference is size between the 2 than than the difference between .452 and . 429.



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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Are the N frames 29 and 25 the same? Heat treated the same? Same steel and strength? Where is the weak link, the cylinder? Why?

Who has shot an N frame "loose" and what did you do about it?

Thanks.



Here is a M-29 compared to a RedHawk the difference is strength is obvious.

[Linked Image]


The top strap on the S&W is not as beefy as the Ruger, the Smith also has a side plate the further weakens the frame, just to show and name a few of the differences that affect strength of the two designs.

Last edited by jwp475; 06/16/16.


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Asked about N frame 29 vs. N frame 25. I know about the Rugers.

Edit: thanks for all the info regarding the difference between a .44 mag and .45 C. I really just wanted to discuss N frame smiths and pressure.

Last edited by Sakoluvr; 06/16/16.

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I doubt you'll get much expert advice on N-frames on this forum. Try the S&W Forum if you want some in-depth expertise. There's a couple of S&W gunsmiths I'll go to for advice and/or gunsmithing, and they're both on that forum.


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