Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Bowhunting 5x5 Charging Bull

Thought you all might like to see this and perhaps give some feedback on my channel. Thanks everyone.

Wow. Not a shot I'd have taken at all, if you wanted comments. LOL.

Great video clip though.

I"ve seen a few come flying in like that, all young small bulls. But it was very rare the years we bowhunted, to see that. I never shot one, as I never got what I wanted for a shot, but my buddy did a few times.

Did you see the part where he said he was off to the right of the camera?

Yes. I also saw a really hard raking shot that seemed to get about only half the arrow in there.

Obviously I may owe him an apology, but it sure didn't look like good penetration at all to me.

But then I pretty much shoot arrows heavy enough to expect the arrow to go away and through when I shoot.

But maybe it hit the off side shoulder.

Its the one thing I never liked about archery elk, you often had minor time to make a major decision and shoot if they were coming to a call.

great video.

Hey thanks guys. It was a tough choice to make in the moment when you see this nice 5x5 bull coming in to your calls. You saw the stand-off in the video. I was draw back about 30 seconds total.

It's 20 seconds from when he jumps back a little to when I shoot. Those 20 seconds were filled with a lot of thoughts and emotions. I waited and waited, hoping he would move into a little better position. Then my buddy says "shoot Mark" and I think that must have put me over the top to let it fly. I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I just thought it was a video that many would like to see.

Should have kept my monologue at the beginning to about 60 seconds. Oops. Less almost always seems to be more. Anyway, thanks for watching.

Mark

Recon - the video is good. Never a bad thing to see a bull fired up and coming in.

Most of us hate to make arm-chair QB calls on these, it's too easy to slam down on a situation that we can't see but a micro- piece of.

Two things pop out to me:

First, your camera man appears to be fighting the camera set up, the frame keeps drifting right and he's continuously fighting to keep it on the animal. It looks like the movement is what caused the bull to alert, stop, and spin.

Second, If the animal was 20 yards away, and you are 10 or less yards to the right, you shot angle was in the nieghborhood of 30 degrees or less into ribs. Looks like the bull was pretty much butt on to the camera. A 30 degree shot on a large animal rib cage is tough shot for any archer.

I'm guessing this was your potential first bow kill of a big game animal, and that's working against you as well in having to make a snap decision. I've made bad shots as a new archer that I wish I could have back. But, you learn from each encounter, build your experience, and learn the tactical patience will will get you a clean shot to a quick kill.

I think your broad head choice is fine, draw poundage is good. I shoot a Slick Trick is a similar design and size, my buddy shoots Montec G-5s with no issues. You don't mention the weight of your arrows, most will argue that heavier is better.

Sorry you lost the animal, that's a sick feeling no matter what. But, good on you for the courage for posting and seeking feedback.

You sound very experienced, have you arrowed a lot of elk?

Did you recover the bull??

If so, pics man, pics!!

I'd of taken the shot.

Learn from it and hunt on.

]
Can't read very well today?

I can read fine. Arrowed a lot of elk then?

Then you know the answer. I can tell that this won't go well for whatever reason.

Never mind knowledge of archery and a few archery kills under my belt.

At least we have yet again another lottery winner today.

Why would you say that, it's going fine. The OP asked for feedback and got it. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and he asked for them.

Personally, I couldn't see enough in the video to comment on the shot choice. Not being there and all. So if I was the OP and read your post questioning the shot choice I'd want to know your level of experience with the subject at hand.

If it's substantial I'd want to know that.

If it's zero, I'd want to know that too.

smokepole,



Since you're not the OP why did you ask, then?

Since you're not the OP, why do you care?

I asked because the OP is new here, seems like a straight-up guy, and deserves to know the level of experience of someone who questions his judgment.

A couple things:

I don't know the angle you shot from, but it does look too shallow from the rear, but if the angle was better than the video shows, I would have expected a better outcome.

I wouldn't show that video to the public for the reasons you mention. No one wants to witness a lost bull elk, it does happen, but critics are always above doing that...

smokepole,



He signed up and posted without your help. Do you think he is incompetent to do a followup if he wanted?

No, I think he's a new guy I chose to help out by bringing to light the fact that the guy who questioned his judgement has never shot an elk.

Does that offend or otherwise concern you?

If I answer you will not shut up.

Ringman, you do understand that my question was rhetorical, and I'm not asking for an answer?

I'm not interested in whether you're offended. The point being, if you're offended that's 100% your problem.

And by the way, I noticed that this thread is one of only two that you've posted on in the bowhunting forum in the last ten years. The other one was not about bowhunting, just an announcement by JJHack that he'd be at the Sportsman show in Portland.

So you obviously have no interest in bowhunting.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say your real interest is with me. I'm very flattered by the way. Or maybe you're the new forum cop?

Anyway, back to the OP. Personally, hunting videos don't hold a lot of appeal for me, but I understand that they do for a lot of people. As far as whether the shot was a good one that I would've taken, it's very hard to know just by watching the video, without having been there. So I'd tend to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and not go there. Maybe someone who's arrowed a lot of elk would have a better basis to be critical. Someone who's arrowed none, not so much.

And like Shrapnel said, it's probably not a good one for public consumption

Great video.
Only bowhunted whitetail here so fwiw.
Freezing the shot it looks high and back to me.
Looks like the arrow penetrated straight and didn't slide along the ribs.
Also the bull's rear is higher than his front and the arrow going higher as penetration progresses.
Thinking it hit ribs where they are curving back towards the spine and very thick and rigid. IMO, they halted penetration.

My thoughts are I don't care for the length to width ratio of that Broadhead were I wanting deep penetration and bone breaking ability.
The angle don't look bad to me but the placement does. I'd of aimed lower and more forward.
I would also want a arrow with with decent weight, a good percentage of it forward, and a Broadhead known for penetration were angling shots on elk at 63 lbs. be on my to do list.
Thanks for the vid

Wonder what total arrow weight was, FOC and what # his bow.
I don't even like 100gr heads on little ol Whitetails.

Also wonder if papertune showed his system to be maximized (quality of arrow flight).

Penetration looked bad. If he nicked one little branch that might have made the diff between video only vs video and full freezer.

I might go elk next yr.
60# recurve if I do.
proly a minimum of 21% FOC and 540gr.
Cut on contact head (2 blade).

Been thinkin' hard about a new Blackwidow.
Maybe a new PCH with 56" 50# and 58# limbsets.
Not cheap. But I'm worth it.

Good video. I would have shot, I don't get many chances like that. Twenty years ago before my first elk hunt I shot 3 different heads into 1/2 inch plywood, a Bear Razor, a NAP expanding, and a Thunderhead, only the 125 Thunderhead went through. I went with the Thunderhead. I use a different setup now. Your video prompted me to shoot plywood again today. 401 grain total, carbon with a 100 Thunderhead and 555 grain total, aluminum with the 125 Thunderhead. 60lb. draw compound at 15 yards. Twenty years ago an 82lb.compound. Today I used 2 sheets of 3/8 plywood about 8 inches apart. Both arrows went through the first sheet and stopped in the second, the 125 blades just started in the second sheet, the 100 just the tip. I am going to use the carbons this fall with the 100's. I did shoot two bulls with my previous bow, shot at a cow about 45 yards, missed she jumped the string. My brother had two elk jump the string, when they are alert they are surprisingly quick. Thanks for posting the video, and getting me fired up. That is one of the most exciting things a hunter can do, I have seen guys come unglued in that situation, I shot one at 3 yards and can't remember getting it done, other than drawing when his eye was hidden by a clump of needles in the tree between us.

Looking for stuff I came across this.....

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Webpage.aspx?WebpageId=78

They say 650 gr or more.

hookeye,



The last time I went hunting with a bow the compound wasn't invented. I used a 63# recurve. I think it had "Magnum" in its name. The arrow hit a twig and caused a miss. For many years after that it was rifle or handgun all the way. Now I used only a rifle.

Jumping the string is telling you something. But most have to learn it the hard way and don't care if they wound in the process at first...

I don't have to kill. I'd like to though. But I'll pass iffy shot after iffy shot, waiting to make sure when I do shoot its 200 percent sure dead kill... no miss, no wound, no jumping the string....

I just tossed it out for what its worth. And accuracy on long shots has never been an issue with me....but I won't shoot long on game... with a bow...

It's been fun to read all the replies here. I didn't expect this, but it's been informative and fun to read. I'm out of town right now, but several people wondered about the arrow weight. If I remember correctly, the total was about 370 grains.

Regarding the shot placement, I agree that the shot was a little high. I hit him a little far back b/c I had read that if you took a quartering away shot like that, it needed to be a little further back than usual as to hit the vitals well. It appears also that the shot was further back than I'd have liked it to be.

I'm super excited for this upcoming season and will be hoping to capture a better outcome on film and learn from this hard lesson of my rookie season. I've since switched to a different broad head. It's muzzy with a slightly wider blade and a trocar tip that I think will be better for me.

Wider blade makes a bigger hole.

Also tends to slow down and inhibit penetration.

Personally I'd never hunt anything big without a COC head with plenty of weight and plenty of arrow weight.

Well screw it, I'm gonna email the guy with the Blackwidow HS60 60#.

If he's got it, I'm buying it.

If I go elk hunting, I'll be ready. Lightest arrow I'll run is 500 gr. Might try some GT 75/95 with 300 up front (over 650 total) and see what that does.

I always wanted a black widow, but once I had a brackenbury from a grand old deceased friend and sent it in for new limbs, that thing shoots so freaking good that my desire for a black widow went away....

I've shot quite a few different bows.
Blackwidow with higher mass weight feels better to me, lus the way they draw. Some folks don't like either of those aspect. Some of us love em.

Had an MA2 built in '87. SA2 in '01 and '04. Cool grip on the old metal HS........but a little too cool in winter.

My HF is the skeleton riser. Grip different than HS, but still feels good.

Proly the next best feeling bow I shot was a buddy's Chastain. Bighorns, Brackenberry, and a bunch of other customs and factory rigs.........feel pretty good, but not as good to me.

I wish I could love a cheaper bow:)

Eh, I bought my '72 like new for $300. Will have about that in the HS. If I go PCH.........well there's a K+ for a new one.

If I shot 3D more often Id drop the coin for a new rig.

I shot my HF for the first time in a while......it zipped 'em pretty good and felt great, even if I wasn't toned up. My old muscles recognized that draw, and with the grip being a non issue........all my focus is at the target.

If a guy likes his bow and can hit with it..........that's all that matters. Seen lots of shooters with $$$ rigs that try to blow smoke up peoples butta, and those folks in turn try to blow smoke up other people's butts about how bad a custom was.

Blackwidow shooters catch a lot of flack. On one forum I asked a guy if he ever shot a tuned Widow......

He shot one, it was loud and shocky. Obviously out of tune. Like a Ferrari with a bad sparkplug.......condemns the car.

What I learned long ago is just shoot, let your scores do the talking.

When you shoot a $$$ bow you are expected to shoot well, to silence your critics. Just tale your little blue ribbon and smile. Drives them freakin' crazy

Never realized a brack could be considered cheap.

And I don't doubt that a widow could be even better, but teh way the brack draws, smooth as whatever your reference should be, and shoots well, no shock or kick to it, getting the job done, at that point I rarely look further forward.

Especially since I'll likely never be able to shoot traditional again with an injury.

Its life.

But I've never heard a widow shooter catch flack ever? Have not heard a bad thing about htem. A friend has one, but he can't shoot to start with and just likes to brag anyway...

I missed Cloverdale, dunno who all was there. But comparing bows side by side is a real treat, and a great way to spend a day.

Maybe next year.

I still might pick up an old Appalachian. Can't remember the bowyer's name. Nothing fancy. But the guy was so cool....I'd like one of his recurves just for that.

Last one I saw had longbow grip, and I can't shoot those.
Can, but they are funky for me, so I quit trying.

Timberhawks are nice, buddy has one. Owner blew me some crap at a trade show when I was working another vendor (gun and bow shop). His helper I knew from 3D (great guy) so he asked me to try some on the 10 yd practice range.

I said cool and got my quiver and tab from the truck, proceeded to try 2 or 3 bows and crash my nocks over and over.

Owner gave me the sh*ttiest look and scowl. I just advertised his bows for free in front of a bunch of people and he was being a d*ck. No words, but still a d*ck. Of course his bows have Biblical verse written on them.

Yeah, I'll never buy one of his bows. A hole.

If you wanna see some crazy stuff though, look up Blacktail..........museum type stuff. Some for 8500.

Jaw dropping art.

http://www.blacktailbows.com/legacy-series.html

I only do business with cool people. Period.

Ken Beck was a superb gentleman and the new guys at BW are cut from the same cloth. Good product (may be better, dunno) and good people.........good enough for me.

Oh, Widows are "plywood" and often bought by folks with thick wallets and thicker heads, so not all are the best of trad ambassadors.

I've shot BW for almost 30 yrs. Been to lots of shoots, most local, but some 2 or so hrs away (one way). Used to hear the BS, even read it on trad forums. Has died way down in the last 5 yrs I reckon.

But then the trad sites in question, have gotten really crappy.

Shoot what ya like, just shoot it well. And if some d*ckhead doesn't like your bow.......win the shoot.

Drives em bonkers.

My ld clunker HF1225 is 60" (hate that) and the grip isn't as nice as the HS. And it's heavy and not FF rated.

But it's an old skeleton bow and as a kid I always wanted one.

And it aint a bad rig. So I'm happy.

In fact, I'm gonna shoot some in a few
I aint worth a darn right now, but in a month I'll be solid to 30 yards, easily good enough to hunt. By season, barring any injury........the deer inside of 25 don't have a chance (farthest I'll shoot on deer due to time of flight risk).

You go 10 yards more than I trust movement but that works for you and mine works for me.

As you have said, and I think its right regardless the circumstance, person, vehicle, weapon etc... if it works for you and makes you happy, who cares?

25 is my max with trad, even though i can shoot well past that. I also won't shoot at an alarmed deer.

I had a 145" bust me, or so I thought and he gave me a wide open 35 yarder broadside (was looking at a 7pt).

Shooting 3D all summer (and doing well) I coulda put it on a dime.

But would he just stand there and take it?

I thought not, so never even drew my bow. 2 steps about two minutes before and I'd have smoked him at 10 yds.

Passed on him in gun season, wanted him w bow. Never seen again.

Oh well.

My max w wheels is 50.
Can shoot well past that too.
Farthest deer was only 45 yards (injured, had to go back to wheels for a while).
Man that arrow got there FAST!
Yardage was dead on, shot execution perfect........and that deer tried to duck it.
Arrow got there quick enough it smoked her.

Pretty d*mn impressive after having shot trad for 5 yrs and having the "release string, grab an apple, take a bite, light a cigar and watch the arrow impact" deal.

But recurves are functional art.
I just always have liked 'em.
Mom and dad both shot in the local GM factory's league when I was 4.
Remember the big Saunders "circus target" on the garage.
Not many memories past that...........proly blocked out by time and those bright colored rings!

Pops had a Herters (so he says), mom had a Tamerlane.
Had it for yrs after they split, was saving it for me, but somewhere down the road she dumped it.

So...........I got a compound when in elementary school.
Got back into recurves around '85.

here, deer just flat move at the shot, relaxed even.

So we found that about 17 on out you have no clue if they will be right when the arrow arrives or gut shot or missed etc....

So learning that the hard way we just stickto 15 and in or no shot.

I hunt private ground mostly.
Deer mellow there. Once gun season starts, foliage drops.........max trad goes to 20 yds.
25 before boom time.

Have found that some bows need more than 1 set of whiskers. Got a rig from a guy that's hunted quite a bit, and his tune/setup was pretty shocking.

New string, higher brace and still that hum (metal riser recurve). 2nd set of puffs did the trick.

Noisy bows suck. But a lot of people seem to like 'em.
Two guys I know claimed their rigs good enough (deer ducked 'em). Went shooting together and when I shot my bow they were like WTF?

Yeah, fast and quiet.

Had a custom bow guy with his fanboys indoors, loud and sloppy the gang was (bows). Let one guy shoot my Widow and he was flabberghasted.

Speed and quiet. Plus he said he couldn't watch the arrow fly.

Well duh. They didn't come out sideways like his did.

Current bow has some low freq noise, not a problem. Kinda cool actually. I suspect if I get a single bolt down limbed rig, I might have to go dual whispers.

The HS I had was unusable with 1 set (single limb bolt), even after a bit of experimentation. You'll see foam and other used........and nothing helped.

4 wooly whispers made it deadly quiet.

Divide string into 4 equal lengths and put one at first inside mark from each end. If that doesn't work, split the diff for the next set (toward tip).

Cost is another 5 bucks and has solved a few bow noise issues.

Some it's not the string but the limb itself (couple of old Bear Grizzlies had limb resonance). Sims dampener or PSE Vibrackeck bands solved those.

I used to go to shoots and hear other people's bows........like lumber falling out of the bed of a pickup! I just don't get it.

Maybe low brace and no whispers, for max speed in 3D.........but these were hunting setups and they sounded horrible!

I shoot my bow for noise issues with somone behind a large tree, so they can hear downrange... thats all that matters to me.

its the way we found out how stupidly loud feathers are in flight... among other things.

And playing around figured out multiple string silencers, string slap issues, arrow slap issues and so on....

Yeah, we had folks shoot 50 yards and were behind a decent clumb of trees (totally sheilded) at 30. Blind, we had arrows shot past us to the other target.

Like you said......pretty amazing.

Doesn't take much fletch damage to make them really loud.