Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Newer type of defense bullet

Hype or not?

..the price however is insane

http://www.lehighdefense.com/pages/xtreme-defense

I've seen some independent tests on youtube that show some pretty impressive penetration. I figure it's got to be better than ball ammo as it has a meplat and I don't know if the grooves are there for terminal performance or marketing.

I asked on another thread, the 9/147 grain bear killing one. If Phill had tested these bullets against the 147 grain hard cast. No answer yet.

This guy carries them.

One of these days I'm going to do a comparative penetration test of various weight and nose style of cast bullets in the 38 sp, 9mm, 357 mag, 45 acp, 45 colt and 480 Ruger. I may include some mono metal bullets as well. Trouble is my reloading bench is buried in the garage and I'm way behind on finishing the basement and need to put my boat in the garage this winter for some repairs and upgrades.

Cool thanks, oh could you throw in a 10 and or 40 cal. Thanks again.

I currently only own and cast for those calibers. I have been thinking of adding a 10 to the stable and will include it if I do.

Looks like these would go through most people and into people behind them especially in more powerful calibers

The defender round penetrates less and creates more disruption in gel but I wonder how this transfers to real tissue?

Probably be a good ammo for pistol hunting

Why aren't you worried more about your misses?

Hype.

There's a lot of rounds marketed to police that are all hype. They also continue to shoot hollow points, when there is no assurances at all that the bullet will expand.

I've got all my handguns loaded with the Lehigh rounds. They shoot well out of my Glocks and my Para Ordnance Executive Carry.

I believe one test was published on the penetrating rounds. I don't remember the caliber. It penetrated wet newspaper (I don't know how much), 4 gallon jugs filled with water and knocked a chunk out of a concrete wall that finally stopped it.

if you just put this in the location part of your profile, we'd already know you're in Conundrum Alaska

it's the exact same spot we're all in

This is what I am carrying in my Glock 40...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2LKZy5-y64


In the .38 Super I am alternating rounds of the Underwood 90 grain and CorBon PowR'Ball which is 100 grains...both are doing in the 1530 fps area...

Bob

Yep, I'm carrying the 140 grain X-Treme Penetrators in my Glock 40 and my Glock 20 and the 200 grain .45 X-Treme Penetrators in my Para Ordnance Executive Carry (3.2" barrel).

Why do you need that much penetration? Aren't you concerned about passing through without much velocity loss? If you're in grizzly country, and all you have is a .40 or .45, I guess I could see it, but not in an ordinary self-defense carry situation.

My guess is this is mostly the case TLee, I carry 140 gr Barnes hp's at 1250 fps and 200 gr nosler hp's at 1025 fps in my 40 cal, call me crazy, or believe or or not, the 200 gr Nosler hp's out penetrated the 140 Barnes copper hollow points in my testing here at the house.

The old Nosler is nothing special, but, it shoots more accurately and tames the snap of the forty cal recoil, it now shoots [feels] like a 45 ACP upon firing.

In a caliber where it's typically penetration OR expansion like a 380 or less, maybe these would be interesting to try, problem is I can buy 50 gold dots for 24$ and 20 of these cost 30$....👎
I have no doubt they would dig deeper vs. the GD but I'm not even sure the design on these things would inflict more damage in anything other than ballistic gelatin

It would cost quite a bit just to make sure they feed reliably

I was thinking the same thing. You want to shoot at least a hundred rounds of something, just to make sure it feeds reliably, before you carry it.

I still carry 180 Hydra-Shoks in my Commander. Ball& Cor-Bon Power-Ball on the .380.

Do you know this from experience, or just guessing?

I thought "hype" at first too, but bought some to find out. They are legit, not hype. I don't like that they use "Extreme" to describe all their products, but otherwise they do live up to expectations.

In my case, it's the 90gr Defender in a 9mm +P+ load at 1525 fps from a G19; they really do work. Penetration through both soft and hard stuff is equal or better than any JHP I've tested (most of them) over the years, and they do plenty of damage.

The damage, in test media at least, does not seem as large as the initial wound channel with conventional hollow points in my experience, but is carried a lot deeper. They also retain their effectiveness when fired through sheet metal and aluminum plate. This round penetrates 1/4" 6061 aluminum plate easily, while 9mm FMJ and a number of commercial defense loads do not.

BTW the Ruger/Polycase ARX is another option of similar concept as the Lehigh E-D series, but it definitely does not live up to the hype.

I tested the 9mm and 45 flavors back to back with the Lehigh, and was pretty dissapointed in the ARX. Velocity from my Glocks (19 and 21) matched the box advertised numbers, but penetration and damage were underwhelming. Neither round penetrated 1/4" aluminum plate, and they didn't penetrate or damage soft test media as much as the Lehigh or my favorite +P 124gr Gold Dot load.

I give them credit for trying something new, and the copper/polymer composite bullet material holds together well, but these need further R&D, IMO.

All this bullet talk got me to playin' around yesterday with milk jugs filled with water... I know water isnt the best predictor of terminal performance.

I used a glock 19 with a 124 grain HST +P and a Glock 42 with 90 grain Gold dot

both penetrated 2 full gallon jugs and both were caught in the third... I have no doubt the Lehigh ammo wouldve gone further

here are the jugs after the 9mm, the the first jug almost split in two (hydrostatic shock?)... THE HST impact was dramatic as it sent water everywhere. the 380 was not as profound...



I have no pics of the 380 carnage, the jugs were not damaged near as severe.

the HST:





comparison of the two:




THE Gold dot expanded almost as wide. Obviously, this is in water so its not worth much. The HST had some sharp petals, the gold dot is bonded and was more of a smooth mushroom. It starts out weighing 34 grains less, so I felt like it performed great.

That HST reminds me of the Black Talon.

Those will definitely work Mr. Lee, the little phillips screwdriver tipped Lehigh bullet in the only one I'd be interested in if I carried a 380, that little popper needs to penetrate.

my thoughts as well, but I don't want to takeout a loan to see how reliably they feed

LOL, I'd have to try a few boxes just for fun, or if the FMJ ball ammo T Lee speaks of at least comes in a flat point fmj design, I have found fmj flat point bullets penetrate straight in all caliber I've tested them in.

Have seen some fmj round nose ball ammo wander on their path through test mediums.

Leigh Extreme Penetrator VS Extreme Defender

The defenDer looks interesting, maybe one day they won't cost 1.50 each

I'm betting you'd have a hard time catching one of these in something that bleeds.



https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-100-grain-flat-nose/

At least in tests, the HST's are the most consistent performing bullets I've ever seen.

MM

no doubt they are, in bare gel, or through any type of clothing, they just always open and don't get plugged up

The disappointment of thr HST lineup is the 380 though...
https://youtu.be/lhByLwyvGpA

Lehigh 380 extreme penetration
https://youtu.be/LczfeWK9lHw

no doubt they would dig deep
the lehigh video above actually compared the lehigh to the flat nose FMJ, FMJ penetrated much deeper as expected. The wound channel wasnt as good though

I'm glad to hear they make at least a flat nosed fmj for the little 380, I've never looked to see.

You are right about water jugs not being the best predictor of terminal performance, but they are handy for comparing bullets, as you know.

For comparison, in the same test (water filled milk jugs), a 124gr Gold Dot +P+ 9mm (1300 fps) penetrated pretty much the same as your HST; caught in the 3rd jug.

The 90gr Lehigh at 1525 fps penetrated 5 jugs, caught in the board behind the 5th. It didn't mess up the first jug as bad as the Gold Dot, but burst the 2nd and 3rd considerably more than the Gold Dot.

I've also been playing with a 100gr flat point cast bullet in the 9mm; the Lee 95-RF, basically a 100gr WFN design. At 1500 fps (hard cast) it also penetrated 5 jugs, but only destroyed the first one. The rest just had caliber size holes punched through. Good penetration but much less effect than the 90gr Lehigh.

It's not a FMJ, though it will act as one.

Someone on this board posted a video of them shooting through two panes of "bulletproof" glass with a Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator. I don't remember the caliber. He shot a couple of other bullets that one would expect to have excessive penetration; the glass stopped those rounds. Then he loaded up a Lehigh round and punched a hole through the glass. I've got way too many Lehigh Penetrators loaded up in mags. For a self-defense gun Lehigh makes a bullet that is very light-for-caliber. The penetration of the Xtreme Defenders is 12" to 18". I'm afraid the Penetrators would go through three people if I fired it in a crowd at a mass-murderer taking shots at the crowd with some version of an AR.

10mm extreme penetrator vs bulletproof glass. Impressive!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk

Wonder why the Underwoods have a higher velocity over the Lehigh Defense?

More powder??

If you have a 40 S&W and want to test some, I can send you some of my new 200 gr Nosler loads in the 40, I was astounded at the penetration, and think you would be too, it's a book load of Longshot powder in new WW brass.

thanks Gunner, just a 9mm and 380

10-4 buddy.

Still trying to come to terms with why a 200 gr hp at 1040 fps out penetrated my 140 gr buzzsaw Barnes at 1250, gotta be a momentum deal at work here.

Momentum and expanded sectional density (sectional density before impact is irrelevant here, if they both expand). That Barnes bullet throws out a big parachute on impact; it probably does more damage in the first 6" but slows down faster compared to your Nosler, right?

That 140gr Barnes has no relation to what the 140gr Lehigh will do though, not even close.

I couldn't tell the difference in the unscientific wet newsprint test medium, what blew me away was the 200 gr Nosler HP went 7 to 8"s deeper than the Barnes, TWICE!

The 230 XTP will also out penetrate the 185 XPD in wet news print, in my experience.

10-4 JWP, the 40's kinda got me thinking about packing it with the 200 grainers when I'm bowhunting on the ground in feral hog country.

Forgot to mention the Noslers held their jackets too JWP, another surprise, thought sure they'd shuck em.

I'm liking that bullet in my 40.

Run one of those Lehigh XTreme Penetrators in 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm or 45 ACP through boxes filled with wet newspaper. I was reading a report on the Lehigh Penetrators, but I can't remember the caliber or the amount of wet news print it penetrated. What I DO remember is the Penetrator went completely through their wet newspaper, then through 4 gallon milk jugs filled with water and impacted a concrete wall behind the media, knocking a chunk from the wall. The round was not deformed much at all.

I think these XTreme Penetrator rounds give the little .380 some teeth finally. I won't load them for carry in my Glock 20. It would probably penetrate 3 people. Lehigh makes two carry alternatives: XTreme Defender. In my 10mm the XTreme Defender has the same Philips head screw driver look, weighs 115 grains and the MV is 1700 fps. The other load is the Fragmenter. It is a 140 grain hollow point with a MV of 1500 fps. It is supposed to expand immediately once it enters the body, rather than the petals staying with the core and plowing on out the other side. The petals and core are supposed to fragment inside the body. This is some baddass ammo. It shoots very accurately out of both of the my Glocks and my Para Ordinance Executive carry. When my girls get through their CC classes, I'm going to load them up with the 9mm XTreme Defenders. My daughter has a Glock 17 and my lovely bride has a Glock 19.

MD, yes, they are plows for sure and certain, Not implying my surprised finding that the 200 gr Nosler from my 40 would compete on penetration, no way it will, just very pleased that it out penetrated my 140 buzzsaw Barnes load, and HELD it's jacket.

If I carried, or all I had was a 380 that's the only bullet I'd shoot in it, sounds like a little trained paperwork and you'll have the ladies set too.

Gunner,

I got all my in-service training records from when I was a Deputy in Texas. I attended a 2-week training course in firearms instruction that was taught by The Texas Department of Public Safety. I took the course in 1991. I served as one of the departmental firearms instructors until 2000.

Plus, I have my Retired Peace Officer Concealed Carry Permit. I've submitted them to the Illinois State Police. I imagine things will slow to a crawl now, but eventually I'l get my CC Instructor License. They'll be in the first class I teach. That'll save us $75 each on their permits. Still have to pay for the background check, but every little bit helps.