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Kenetrek Hardscrabbles

I've logged well over 200 miles in these boots but most of those miles were on mild terrain with a light pack. In the past few months I've been training for a backpack coues hunt. The training consists of a 55 lb pack and as much elevation as I can find in south Alabama (which isn't much). With duration of any significance, sweat, and hills, combined with the pack weight, I am getting hot spots despite a callused heal. Liners don't help. Leukatape helps but I don't want to get on the coues mountain and learn it doesn't help enough.

Looks like I better pull the trigger on another pair of boots fast and start logging the miles. I'm thinking the Lowa Tibet GTX will get the first shot.

This is a callus, not a blister. You'd think it would offer enough protection. But then again, the fact that there is such a callus is reason for concern.

I love my Lowa Tibet boots! They are very comfy and well built.

Have you tried a sock liner?

Based on his statement that liners don't help, I can only assume he has...

Try a pair of Hanwags!

Smartwool liners could help possibly if you haven't tried them.

CT--Moleskin works pretty well for me when I have those issues with my boots. So far, I have left it on for as long as it holds up and only change it when it gets loose or wears out. Always carry extra supply when hiking/backpacking.
Usually if the boots are close for a proper fit, that will work.
Good luck.
Joe

My Hardscrabbles were great everywhere except steep uphills. There, despite two years use and a LOT of miles, they kept turning my heels to hamburger.

They have been relegated to everyday hikers, and my backpacking boots are now HanWags.

I had similar hotspots for years until I tried Schnee's Beartooth.

No blisters or hotspots for 5 years now.

Something out there will fit you right.

Thanks for the responses. Liners havent done much good. Leukatape seems to work but I have been resisting relying on it.

Rick, a burn on steep sections is exactly my issue too.

There are multiple ways to lace that might help. The problem is that your heel is slipping up and down in the boot. Google it and see some of the options, seeing it is probably better than trying to read what I'm thinking.
Ways to fit boots. Lace them up, kick your foot forward and hit it on the ground with the entire sole. If your toes touch the end, they're too small, or potentially way too big.

Then put one foot behind the other at a 90 degree angle if you don't have a steep hill. Hold the sole of the boot down with one foot and try to lift heel out of the heel pocket. If you can, they're too big or just don't fit. You can also try this on a steep hill, leave your back foot down and see if you can raise your heel leaving the boot on the ground.

I've fit a lot of boots and had great luck with those two initial tests. After passing those, wear them for 30 minutes and see if they're comfortable.
Try them on at the end of the day as your feet swell towards the end. Then try them in the morning.

Good luck

Jon, I appreciate the tips. The boots pass all the fit tests and feel perfect. I am confident they are sized correctly. They are very comfortable with my favorite toe box of any I've ever tried. Everything goes great until you get in the steep stuff.

Tape seems to work. Maybe I'll get through this year with it and reassess after hunting season.

I just bought two pairs of Crispi's about a month ago and am loving them.

I have very wide feet so fit is sometimes problematic but the Crispi's have been great.

Kenetrek's absolutely killed my feet.

Kenetrek chewed up my feet too. I also have very wide feet. I wear a size 13 and boots are usually too narrow. Never thought of Crispi's being a good choice for me, but Ill have to try some.

I know there are mixed opinion's on the Meindl's but I added a 2nd pair of Perfekt's to my rotation last year. I simply don't get blister with them. I change socks at lunch when I'm on the hunt and I only wear wool. these boots have been good to my tender feet (and I don't have callouses )

Crispi's have been great for me. I've used Kenetrek, Lowa, Hanwag, Scarpa, Meindl and several others. Crispi fits me best and I have no heel slippage with them. I have a wide forefoot/toebox but a very narrow heel and they are the only ones I've found that work for that type foot. I use the Nevadas and the Hunters.

Ebby, it seems like me and you are alike in fit; most boots cramp my toes and are big in the heel. I like the leather Nevadas but does the insulation prevent summer use? I assume so. My hunting of recent years is limited to the warm southwest and I've no need for insulation. My preference, because extreme cold is not part of the equation, is one boot and one sock system for everything; summer, fall, winter, spring. Training now, in 90+ degree temps would be tough with insulation.

Salomon Quest 4D GTX work great for me.

prm, I've been thinking about the Salomon Quest 4D and will probably try some due to really good pricing right now ($149 on Amazon) but the below quote has me hesitate for my current purpose. I will be hunting exactly the same terrain this November. I've been there recently (January of this year), a little below coues elevation, and it can be very very tough on boots and body. Me and the Kenetreks held up great, a lesser boot would concern me, but on one very steep climb I got hotspots (no tape) which is when the worry started to build. I will be doing those steep climbs multiple times per day with more weight on the next go.

Meanwhile, the border crossers are proficient on those mountains wearing tennis shoes. LOL

The Nevada's haven't been too hot for me. I use them in 70-80's without any problem. They are not really well insulated and below 35-40, you will notice it unless you are moving. I've found the fit of Crispi to be pretty similar across their line. I had a pair on Laponia's which were a lighter weight and un-insulated option. They fit the same. They have some un-insulated boots if you want to try them out. I think you will find the fit to be good if you have the same foot type as me. Black Ovis carries most of their line in the US.

Asolo Fugitive GTX.

What works for one person may not for another. My solution has been to switch 100% to low tops. For me, lace up high tops resist bending at the ankle which turns the upper part of the shoe into a fulcrum forcing my heel back into the back of the shoe with too much force. Low tops allow my ankle to flex so my foot contacts the ground full length and the force of walking remains up on the ball of my foot rather than being transferred to the back of my heel. I haven't worn a shoe that covered my ankle bone or higher in about 4 years. Even in snow, I find that waterproof low tops, good socks, and properly fit gaiters keep me just as dry and more warm than boots.

Something to think about. YMMV of course.

How much time 'til your hunt? Do you have time to experiment?

Tom

Not surprised, this is a common issue with Kenetreks. I had the same problem and moved on to Lowa Tibet Pros.

Crispi Nevadas came in today. I'm very fortunate, the fit could not be any better.

The difference that I noticed immediately between the Hardscrable and the Nevada is that the Nevada has more of a natural bend in the toe area. I have a feeling this alone will greatly reduce heel slippage.

Pard, if you are going after Coues anywhere I've ever hunted them, steep will be your daily bread.

These if they fit.

I'm new to the steep stuff. The Nevadas seem up to the task. Am I wrong?

Also, what are the negatives of less forefoot midsole stiffness, as in the Nevadas?

Unless you wear crampons, I think stiffness is vastly over=rated. I don't like stiff boots.

I hunt coues many days a year. I have Hardscrabbles or Hardscrabble lites (can't remember which) Once broken in, I have no hot spots with them. The first two pairs didn't last more than an outing or two but this pair is a good boot. I don't like boots higher than about 7-8". I had good service from Meindl Alaskas but they wear out too quickly. The Perfekts are flimsy compared to the others.

Arizona coues country is very hard on boots. It is, however, typically dry.

They heavier the load, rougher and steeper the terrain, the more important a stiff sole is to me. Everyone's feet are different I suppose, but that's what has worked for me and kept my feet going on long hunts.

I'll be packing in 55 pounds or so wearing stiff soled Asolos come Nov. 3rd for my 7 day Coues hunting adventure, best of luck on yours.

If I knew that I could survive 7 days blisterless with stiff soles, they'd be a slam dunk, but I'm not sure of that. As it stands I'm leaning towards a less stiff sole without the risk of blisters. The Nevada's have more ankle support than the Hardscrables, so good there.

Clint, how flexible are the Nevada boots. What would you compare them to. Do they just flex at the ball. I am wanting some with some flex and it sounds like those might fit my feet, normal to wide on the fronts with narrow heels.

There's a lot of disagreement about "ankle support." Many believe not allowing the ankles free range of motion ultimately makes it more prone to injury by not allowing movement (and thereby strengthening). I also think "stiffness" belongs in the same discussion, as overly stiff boots also limit the ankles free or natural range of motion.

I'm 55 and have had ankle support preached at me my whole life. Recently however I started to rethink it. This summer I decided to use lightweight low hikers on a week long backpack here in Montana's Beartooths. Eureka. I doubt I'll ever use boots on a summer backpack again. Talk about more comfortable, and less fatigue.

A lot of what I did on the trip was close to the hardest backcountry hunting I do, including sidestepping on super steep, off trail climbs, including steep scree slopes and rock fields.

Stiff boots are made for crampons. I'm just not a believer they're necessary, or even desirable, for non-technical climbing. And most mountain hunting falls into the latter category.

I'll still be using mid or tall boots for my hunting, primarily because of insulation/foot protection (a hard surface surrounding the foot). But given the right warm conditions I believe I'd have no issues using low hikers with a good sole.

This is an ongoing discovery for me, and the end of the book is not yet written. I just know I'm no different than anyone else and am just as subject to "group-think" as the next guy if I don't make an effort to think a new thought/try something different.

A few rambling thoughts this Sunday morning...

Where stiff boots shine, at least for me, are protection for past ankle & foot injuries.

Really stout boots like the Lowa Tibet Hi and the Hanwag get me into the high country--both are Godsends...for me.

Used the Lowa uninsulated this August for the first time. A little stouter than the Hanwag, I believe

Prefer a lower boot and also employ an Asolo for flatter climes--but the high tops do a better job of stabilizing in rough steep country

It seems like the stiff sole boots aggravate my PF more than flexible soles. I also am fighting bursitis in my heel which I find no cure for. I am leaning towards support with cushioning.

these helped me cushion-wise...bit pricey

lathrop footbeds

I prefer some sole protection and other than that the most flexible shoe / boot available. I only really want a boot when I am trying to keep my feet dry. If someone made a grippy, lightly soled, full grain upper (longevity) , I'd order them tomorrow. Otherwise, its just grippy hiking shoes, for most mountain environments and replace them every 6 months. I do prefer boots in the cactus, but that is the only place in dry conditions I will seek them out.

These type threads always interest me, as like a lot of us I too seem to always be in search of the elusive "perfect boot".

One thing that resonates in these threads is the fact that we all have very different needs in a boot. I have a wide foot up front with a normal heel. I have old ankle injuries that require a certain amount of support.

My newest boot is the Lowa Camino GTX. I have taken the time to pursue the best size and have taken advantage of the Wide offering from the company. I have worked out with a pack some while wearing them and it's looking good so far.

I would love to try the Salomon Quest 4D but unfortunately they don't offer wide boots.

Yes, they only flex at the ball of your foot. Its hard for me to compare because I've only ran kenetrek hardscrables for the last 10 years. Based on what you are saying, I definitely suggest giving them a try.

I can't figure out how the minimalist shoe types deal with loaded packs on steep boulders and talus, where pinning your foot between two shifted large-ish rocks isn't just expected, it happens over and over again.

Like someone else said, everyone has different needs. I'm 59 and my ankles have always been weak. One has some pretty severe arthritis from injuries dating back to HS and college. So I do a number of ankle-strengthening exercises in the gym. That's where I build/maintain strength, along with regular walks off-trail. And then when I'm in the mountains, I use a relatively stiff boot. I'm not looking to build strength then.

Boots have to be purchased according to what each individuals needs are. My Alaskan sheep/goat hunts taught me a lesson for stiff supportive boots and at least one collapsible hiking stick. As the days wear on, supportive boots can greatly assist in side hilling and negotiating scree - both up and down. Some even go to plastic boots for their support.
Also a 10" boot gives you a little better margin for creek crossings.
Don't let someone else sell you a brand, you must decide on your own.

To each his own. I like a toe rand in Talus. I do wear boots on occasion, however, I'm fine on the steeps without a boot. I've hauled out two bone in elk quarters down a steep slope, with rock changing to timber at 1 am with minimalist Inov8 shoes. I use more smear techniques often for grip , and prefer lower profile , more flexible footwear that offers protection from rocks / cactus whatever the hazards. I prefer contact vs force for grip / stability on steep stuff, not a lot different than how a lot of grippy mountain bike tires work.

Two thoughts:

1. Have you tried covering the callous/hot spot with duct tape? It offers the skin protection and a bit of glide for the boot.

2. With the lack of elevation in your AO, I'd be looking for stadium steps as part of the training.

1. Used duct tape, didn't like it. Leukatape worked so much better, and actually prevents hot spots during training. I just don't trust it to hold up over multiple days. Maybe it will, but don't want to risk it.

2. There is 120' gain over 275 yards on my property. It works pretty good, trails zigzag up and down.

I've about 6 miles with 55 lb pack and 1500' gain on the Nevada's with medium cushion Smartwool sock and liner. They feel much more plush on the foot than the Hardscrable; I've very little concern of blisters. Very supportive of the ankles. Liking the less stiff midsole. Slightly warmer than the Hardscrable but not much. This morning I put three miles on them in 72 degree temps. They were warm but not bad. Wouldn't be my first choice in 80+ thats for sure, but will work fine from 75 down.

There is one caveat. Currently on the right foot only, the peroneal tendon (outside of foot, opposite of arch) is aching/cramping. This morning it started right away then eased off about half way into the hike. Now, several hours later, there is a dull ache and tingling. Any theories? Apparently the less stiff sole is putting more pressure on this tendon, maybe from tight calves?

I’d give them a try anyway if you can go to an REI ect and try a pair on. I have wide feet, narrow heal and am incredibly blister prone. The 4D fit me great with NO heal slippage. I have had a pair for a week and have been wearing them around to break them in. The only complaint I have is that one of the eyelets irritate my inside ankle bone if tied too tight (there is ALWAYS something).

Two recent observations of my own.

1) Along the lines of Brad’s thought….I’m not convinced a high top is needed or even adds considerable insurance against ankle rolling. It seems to me that ankle stability is much influenced by how stable a base the bottom of the boot/shoe provides. Hard to describe, but in a good ‘solid’ pair of boots my ankle/foot feels supported even when not laced up.

2) I have come to appreciate some ‘cushion’ in the toe area. The outside of my big toe gets very sore when the food bed doesn’t have a little give to it. I think I am done with the Superfeet footbeds for that reason, and I have come to prefer to use the spongy cheap footbeds and then use the Dr. Sholls supports for extra arch/heal support. Yes the $40 supports that you get in the pharmacy after stepping on the machine to measure your feet. I started using them a few years in all my daily shoes to help with falling arches. They really help me.

just returned from a week in Wyoming backpacking the high country...... Steep, and also a lot of side hill/steep... Have had my Kennetreks for about 7 or 8 years... with green super feet insoles.

This year is the most heel trouble I've had... possibly due to my gain of about 15-20 lbs in weight....

Mole skin on the heel works, but I had to secure it with athletic tape to keep it from sliding up and down off my heel. I always wear liners. Feet held up pretty good when taped up.

Also, I would tie my boots up multiple times a day (pitb) making sure to get the center section tight so my heel stayed down... tight to the point where it was a little uncomfortable when I first tied them, but they loosen up after a short bit.

Doing this, I lasted a solid 10 days or so hiking some steep terrain... maybe 5-6 mile hunts per day.

Have loved my kennetreks, but this year will spark me to at least take a look at other boots.

I have an almost new pair of Hanwag Alaska gtx's.... but I ordered them slightly too big and that has always got in my head.... Only wore them on two hikes. if anyone is interested - a size 12 would probably be a perfect fit. I can double check size... I'm 11.5 (us).

Not quite giving up on my kennetreks, they've been awesome for the most part, but time to also see what else is out there.

You don't need heavy, stiff boots to backpack... in fact, you're diminishing your enjoyment. At the very least, look at a pair of Salomon 4D's. If you can open your mind further, look at shoes.

I wouldn't wear boots to run a marathon, or to do trail runs, and the only two reasons I wear them hiking now is to keep my feet dry and to gain some ankle support. I don't want it so stiff it transfers any twisting to my knees, but just additional support. These really stiff and heavy boots make no sense to me.

R 30's

I suppose we should define "stiff and heavy boots." I've heard Hanwags referred to that way but my Mountain Lights are some of the most comfortable boots I've owned, right out of the box and they're not heavy. They also provided enough support for a walk-in Alaskan sheep hunt.

Two more hikes on the Nevadas and all the anxiety of 6 days on the mountain with blisters is behind me. Loving these boot. The peroneal tendon aching/cramping issue seems to be gone.

Now to see how they hold up to the abuse of the southwest nasty stuff.

Another item of note - DARN TOUGH socks rock. After all the recommendations I tried a pair. WOW! I'm the kind that can't sleep if there is differnt socks in my drawer. The Smartwools are out. LOL The DT's are the 1403 Hike-Trek with cushion bottom and non cushion top.

Agreed... the Asolos I mention in my earlier post are their Sasslong model, and while they have a stiff sole/footbed, they are pretty light at about 3.3 pounds for the pair.

That's fairly heavy, given 1lb on your feet equals 5lbs on you back.

It's light compared to the tall Redwings I wore for years... I guess everything is relative.

Brad could you do me a favor and weigh your Salomon 4ds? I was checking them out online for purchase and am seeing substantially different weights listed. Backcountry shows them at 1 pound 7 oz each for an 8.5 while Cabelas shows a lighter weight, but no size listed.

Solomons are shown. These are 8.5s, have super feet insoles and different laces



Another pair (the newer version) with original insoles and laces.

Danner Mountain Light II's? I've always been satisfied with them in rough country

I have hanwags. Well made and comfortable. The only problem is the sole is very hard.So hard that they are slick on hard frozen ground. A little softer sole would grip frozen ground better.

The book is closed on this chapter. The Nevadas are working perfect for me and I've confidence in them for the backpack hunt. No hot spots, rubs, or pressure points, none. Very comfortable with good ankle support. The midsole seems to be the perfect balance. We'll know more after the hunt.

How was the hunt? Any comments on the boots?

POST HUNT UPDATE.

There's at least another chapter in this book.

After several days the hunt took a turn from the high very rocky backcountry to the rolling front country so I was able to get an idea of how the Nevada's performed in both situations.


NEVADA PRO'S:

In both terrains; plush, no blisters, hot spots, etc., nor was there ever a concern.

Very comfortable, never once did I get the urge to pull the boots off to rest my feet, even at night with a pair of Crocs in tow.

Perfect boot for the less rocky rolling front country, or steep, less rocky terrain.

NEVADA CON:

In the rocky backcountry I wanted more midsole. The Nevada's did not instill nearly the same rock pounding confidence that the old Kenetrek's offered last year in the same terrain. This might actually be a blessing in disguise. With the Hardscrabbles I was much more bullish. In the Nevadas I had to be much more ginger and calculated. Also, after a day of pounding rocks, the balls of my feet were a little sore.

HARDSCRABBLE UPDATE:

A stop by Sportman's in Tuscon alerted me to the fact that Hardscrabbles have been updated and I have the old version. I don't know how many years ago this occured. I understand the heel box was the major change. I tried on the new Hardscrabbles. WOW! Right out of the box there is less slippage than my old pair with 100's of miles on them, and the new pair I tried on was actually a half size larger than my old pair. Hardscrabbles are exponentially more stiff all the way around. I did not notice the difference until going back to them after many miles in the Nevada, or the new Hardscrabbles are more stiff than the old (which reminds me that I need to strap on the old pair this afternoon). I immediately felt like pounding rocks. LOL. That said, they did not feel near as plush as the Nevadas. Unlike the Nevada, you can bet I'd be ripping them off after a long day's hunt.

I have taken advantage of the post thankgiving sales and ordered Hardscrabbles at 25% off. Cant wait to see if the heel works out better on the updated design. Initial indications are that they will definitley be better than the old.

Edited:

I just spent a little time in the old Hardscrabbles. They are not nearly as stiff as the new ones I tried on. I know break-in has a lot to do with it but the difference is so vast I suspect the new version is more stiff? Also, right off the bat this afternoon, I noticed the old ones digging into my heel.

Clint, are you using aftermarket insoles in the Crispi's? Sounds like they are a good fit and you like them.

Insoles are Copper Superfeet (low profile/arch, high volume).

Correct, good fit and I like them. The one tweek made is that the toe box is super roomy. The width was perfect but there is slop on the top of the foot in the area where a slip on boot would be ultra tight before break in. A tight pull of the laces and a surgeons knot three eyes up solved it.

This. Two seasons back I shelved the heavy-duty boots and started wearing Keen Targhee II ankle-height hikers. Haven't had a blister since. My hunting partners who still wear the stiff & heavy boots have constant problems, though. I'll never go back.