Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Just picked up another broken Savage

With all the normal B.S., another broken gun thanks to the shipping gorillas is nothing to get bent about. It's only money right? #7 for me. Not even going to fight with them on it, I've been amply trained thank you.

Anybody want a clean 300 EG minus a buttstock for $400? If I keep the forearm I'll go $350. I'll throw in a Weaver scope in a Stith for another three hondo.

One more drink and it'll be mo betta. Just one more. I'm sure tired of the world and it's spinnings right now.

Number seven? Broken guns or drinks? Sorry to hear of this, Roy. I wish I needed an EG project gun or I would take you up on your offer.

I've received guns packaged in everything from cardboard boxes with zero packing materials(!) to my last one from an esteemed member here that had a wooden liner built around the gun, inside a cardboard box- the whole thing outweighing the gun by double. (That last one came all the way from California with no issues.)

If you want good advice on packaging, ask Joe Martin who worked for UPS since before WWI. One thing he said was that if you want to guarantee trouble free shipping, create your package so substantially that you can stand on it. I like that.

Another sound approach is to employ a cheap plastic gun case, contained within its cardboard shipping box. It adds plus/minus $30 to the cost of shipping but is well worth it.

Bottom line: make doubly-damned sure the shipper understands that you expect secure packaging. If he blows you off in that regard, take your business elsewhere.

Another sound approach is to employ a cheap plastic gun case, contained within its cardboard shipping box. It adds plus/minus $30 to the cost of shipping but is well worth it.


Last one I received was packed as above, still UPS managed to poke a hole through the outer cardboard box and compress the plastic case hard enough to snap off a scope right at the front mounts. Sako Finnwolf and mounts were not damaged. Took six weeks but they paid for the cheap scope. Don't underestimate these shippers as they could destroy an anvil. GW

Now that I'm retired, and no longer bound by oaths of secrecy, and you would like to know how the tire tracks got on your package, I can tell you, Joe.

So, you're the guy UPS hired to mangle the gun shipments in this country?

I'm the buyer not the shipper, so I didn't have any say in how it came. Anymore I expect the worst. Just about everywhere actually.

The first mistake is accepting the shipment if there is visible damage. Return to sender and let them fight it out. The shipper is the carrier's customer - not you.

I've always used FedEx ground which is far from perfect but I got paid for the 3 claims I had to make.

Lately, I've found a simple frame of 1X4s inside the cardboard box is cheap insurance.

I feel for you I have had 2 rifle stocks broken by UPS over the last year. I believe it is intentional. I have started all current gun deals by asking if they will ship via USPS or FEDEX - and so far so good. I currently have a rifle in the pipeline and is due to be delivered to my FFL today from California. Fingers crossed it arrives safe and sound.

Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder if, in some instances, it's intentional. Fear and loathing of guns in general is at an all time high- remember we gun loonies are in a minuscule minority. What speaks louder than "I'm a nasty gun in here" than a 1ft. x 4ft. 15 pound cardboard box?

Mike, I didn't accept a broken $1400 Sako once and it nearly cost me the entire $1400. If you don't accept it you can't get photos and somebody inevitably throws away the box or some stupid sheit. If you leave it at the FFL's he doesn't want to deal with it.

All joking aside, no one at UPS breaks packages on purpose. They don't have time. The poor kids that load the trailers get paid about 10 bucks an hour and have to load 1200 to 1500 pieces an hour, for a 3.5 hour shift. This isn't 1200 envelopes. It's dorm fridges, window A/C units, computers. If you can't put one end of the package on one chair and the other end on another chair, then stand in the middle, it's not packed well enough. The boxes come down a belt, the loader builds a wall, and keeps moving back, as they go. The walls are ten feet high. If the wall is three feet high when your rifle comes down the belt, it gets laid across several packages. If the boxes at the muzzle and butt stock are very stiff and strong, and the ones in the middle are soft and floppy, you have a week spot in the middle. Then you have seven more feet of packages that get stacked on top of your rifle. We have a 70 pound weight limit that goes into the general load. If ten 70 pound boxes come down the belt they get stacked on that wall, fast. You don't get extra credit, or time, to load a heavy box. Then our overall weight limit is 150 pounds. Those boxes get stacked at the end of the trailer and get loaded last. So, if you were unlucky, and your box was in the last wall, you might get a 150 pound box on it. Me being a gun guy, the only boxes I knew were guns were Remington, because they still used green boxes with big Remington script, and H&K MP5's going to the FBI. The H&K's were marked MP5, 5 units per box. Always plan on your box being in the middle of the load with week, soft boxes under it. Only a couple percent are loaded flat on the bottom, and a couple percent on top, so your's is in the middle.Don't bother with "Top Load Only", the loaders check the zip to make sure the package is on the right trailer and that's it. No time to read notes, look at pictures on the box. We get loads in from Purina with 69 pound boxes of dog food. When that trailer hits the door, you just groan. It all gets resorted to other trailers. If you get 200 of those boxes coming down your belt the very last thing you think about is, "wow, I wonder if this skinny floppy box has a gun in it". When Gateway Computers came out with their black and white cow boxes, they had a commercial on TV, with a box dropping from above the commentator. He said something like, "we don't drop our boxes, but we could". If you can't drop it from shoulder high, or sit on it resting on two chairs, it's not packed well enough. You can say that's stupid, but that's the way it is, and it's not going to change. If you want to ship it in a light weight carton, ship it Next Day Air, they don't go in trailers. They get shipped in Igloos that fit in the planes, so not very much stacked on top. If you don't want to pay for NDA, build a 2X4 frame for it. Unfortunately this only works for the shipper. When your the receiver, you are at the whim of a cheap skate shipper, Joe.

See if this video loads. It's fairly realistic. I'd say our guys worked at a much faster pace. This looks more like a training film. If your package can't take this level of handling, you need to hand carry it. It shows the general methods, a guy breaking jams, pretty much how it works. Scan half way through. I didn't look at all the start up stuff, Joe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnBM2ev9bk0

Well, you can call it what you want Joe, and I agree them fellas are working hard, but 7 broken guns is shipping failure in my book.

If a guy were to break 7 guns (or drills, or axes, or chainsaws, or anything) most people would consider him damn careless or a serial abuser.

When you're on the receiving end you are up the creek. Nothing I have ever shipped has ever broken. Might have something to do with the way I pack it. If I send you a gun, it will be in a 2X4 frame with 1/2 inch plywood top and bottom, probably in a heavy black trash bag pressed into spray foam, it won't be broken. Not many people want to go through that much trouble. Yes it cost twice as much to ship. 7 broken rifles is beyond words. But the words that do come to mind, pack it better. Were all 7 from different shippers? The other thing is, with part time loaders, we have about a 90% turn over rate, so it's not one guy. Now, if by chance your driver is some sicko, that's another issue. Do the packages look mangled? If they look OK on the outside and are broken on the inside, that's just plain improper packing. All I can say is if I want to ship something without it getting broken, I can, so others could too. Plus, we have a policy, if you find something damaged, pull it from the system. We return it to the shipper. We would rather have just the shipper mad at us than the shipper and receiver. So it's in the hourly's best interest to get it out of the system. What ever it is causing the damage, it's not Gorillas, it's my kids, your kids, the neighbors kids. Just out of curiosity, I'm going to ask my LGS how many rifles are damaged from the factory. If the number is near nill, I'll take that as the factory knows and cares how to ship firearms, and most other people don't. Maybe I'm lucky, I've never had one damaged, Joe.

Joe - I can tell you the last one had a foot print across the box right at the break in the wrist of the gun, you could clearly see someone stomped on it. It looked like someone propped up both ends and stomped in the middle.
As these was some noticeable marks on both ends of the box on the opposite side of the box from the foot print. The gun was packed well in a sturdy box wrapped in foam wrap and bubble wrap. If the box wasn't propped up on the ends and someone stepped on it nothing would have happened. So I am sorry to disagree with you but in this case I believe it was intentional.

You should report this to UPS. There are bound to be bad apples in a large group of people.

I worked along time with a large Airlines, there are workers that load and unload the planes that Just dont care! they will throw a gun case Just because they Know its a gun. Iv got face to face with more than one person! Most people are good and careing BUT not all! I used to tell people to get the best gun case the could afford! Selling and shiping are diffrent, but im sure it still happands and the Airlines fly alot of mail!

JoeMartin,
Would you consider a plastic gun case like the ones sold at big box stores to be sufficient packaging for shipping a rifle?

I'm not Joe (but I played him in a Mel Brooks movie), and I daresay nothing is foolproof, but a hardcase inside a cardboard box is a whole lot better than the way a lot of guys ship guns.

How does one suppose new firearms reach the dealers' racks unmolested?

This is NEVER acceptable packaging.

I have a cardboard box that looks like that. It was flexed on the barrel end so didn't break the stocks but it retained the angle in the cardboard.

I have an air line certified plastic hard case. No shipping company can say it wasn't packed properly. I'm not sure about the box store cases. The case pictured above looks good, am I missing something? I don't think any cardboard box is good. As I said above, if you can't put the muzzle on one chair, and the butt on another chair, and stand in the middle, it's not good enough. We are not supposed to step on boxes, but it happens. If there is a footprint right where the break was, did someone jump on it, I don't know, I hope not. But, if you jump on the middle of a box I packed, it won't break. If you wrap a rifle in bubble wrap and then put it in a cardboard box, there is O support end to end. Bubble wrap does a good job on glass, but does nothing to support end to end. Helps with scratches and dents, but, you need something stiff end to end.

Somehow I'm not making the point. We are not supposed to stand on packages, but it happens. It should not matter. If someone stands right in the middle of your box, it should not dent or bend. If it's long , wrapped in foam or bubble wrap, it has no support end to end. This is the third time I said, in this thread, "you should be able to put the rifle between two chairs and stand on it". If you can't do that it is not packed well enough. Most rifles are not packed anywhere near that well and make it fine, that does not mean they are packed correct. It just means they are treated with respect. If the last wall of the trailer is three feet high, and I ship an engine block that weighs 130 pounds, two loaders heft it up on top of the middle of your package, is it going to survive? If I tell you that a 100 plus pound box might get plopped on top of your box, are you going to think, this nice new card board box looks good to me, I'll use it. Wrap it in a blanket and slide it in, looks good. NO, IT'S NOT GOOD". I would never ship a rifle in a cardboard box. 99% are shipped in a cardboard box. But, I bet a Holland&Holland won't go out the door in cardboard. I bet a Turnbull custom doesn't go out in cardboard. If I keep telling you what you need to do to Gorilla proof your box, and you say, nope I'm gonna use cardboard and bubble wrap, what more can I say. Gnoahhh just got a rifle in the mail, and it wasn't damaged, ask him how it was packed, Joe.

New guns are much more likely to be marked as guns and they make it. They are shipped in form fitted styrofoam, inside new boxes. They have support end to end. They are probably packed by machines that don't care. That should be a warning that soft flexible packaging won't work.

Used guns are packed by people, not machines, designed to packaged with collapse specifications. Most people use whatever box is there, wrap in bubbled pack or foam. They don't buy a 4 foot long block of styrofoam, split it in half, carve out the exact shape of the contents, and snugly fit it to the foam.

If a new gun goes in the same trailer, with the same Gorillas, and doesn't get a scratch. Then the same gun is shipped out used and gets snapped in half, I think it's time to quit blaming the Gorillas, and blame the shippers. If your gun got snapped in half, I'm not blaming you. You didn't misspack it. Tell me how many guns that you have shipped that got damaged? I'm getting off subject of Gregintenns question. But, if you have had a rifle arrive snapped in half and it was in a card board box, and I have said over and over that cardboard is not good enough for something of value, why do you keep defending shipping your valuable rifles in cardboard. Now I have a headache, Joe.

Roy, you are correct. It is shipping failure, not by the handelers, but the shipper. I'll make a deal with you. I'll ship 7, 4 foot florescent light bulbs to you. If one is broken, I'll give you my DL in 308. If they all make it safe, you give me your 270 Titus, Joe.

While we are blaming the Gorillas for bustin up our stuff. I do believe it is still a rather severe crime to destroy interstate commerce. So, I really don't think some knuckle head is going to risk going to jail. Geeze, I don't know why I missed the obvious. All the belts and trailers have cameras in them. Theft is a much bigger issue than vandalism, so every thing is watched by big brother, if some stupid "Hub Rat" was busting stuff up he would be out of there in a minute, Joe.

A rifle isn't exactly what I'd call a delicate item. To have one broken during shipping seems like poor business practice to me. One shouldn't have to build a friggin' crate to ship a rifle.

I agree. The manufacturers don't build 2x4 crates to send rifles. And even if they have styrofoam end to end they still go out in cardboard boxes. You can't tell me styrofoam has any structural support for the scenario Joe describes "standing on it between two chairs".

Alot of manufacturers just have two or three styrofoam inserts to support the rifle inside a cardboard box. And the rifles arrive fine. How? What's the difference? When was the last time anyone bought a new rifle and when they got the box from the back room it was bent or demolished? I've never seen one, but I don't buy new rifles anymore so maybe it happens. It sure as hell happens with used guns by the boatload, every day. There's a difference in the shipping somehow to explain this, but I don't know what it is.

I think we should be able to have a reasonable expectation that our package, no matter what it is, does not end up under an engine block. That's just ridiculous to think the weight of a package doesn't play into where it goes in the load.

I'm going to go back to the start and say I believe the gorillas have the responsibility to handle packages with reasonable care. If I'm hired to do a job my job is to, DO THAT JOB. And I don't get paid if I don't do it right!!!

Clearly money and time are the #1 priorities to the shippers and collateral damage is secondary. That being said, it is what it is and it isn't going to change, so I guess we adapt or die.

One can ship a box of chocolates without the expectation of them arriving stomped flat. I know which one I believe is easier to break.

Have you pissed off someone at your local UPS hub?

I agree, Roy. At the same time I hear what Joe is saying. I too feel that the common carrier's first priority is the almighty dollar, not the safety of our goods. With the obscene profits they make, and the high wages paid to their workers, I posit that they could shave those margins and hire more people and expand their facilities to allow for a more intelligent approach to package handling. I'll bet if an upstart shipper offered guaranteed care in shipping they could beat UPS and the USPS at their own game- and break those monopolies.

Yep. UPS drivers make an insanely high amount of money. I know of one who started driving a truck in her 30s and retired in her 50s with a six digit income. This might be okay but she seems to feel entitled. A little humility in life never hurts. With that amount of money invested in drivers UPS should be delivering your packages along with a steak and lobster dinner, or at the least give you no misery when they damage your property.

I don't think the problem is with drivers, by then the package is not under any stress. I think it has to happen in the trailers. The driver does have the responsibility to pull any damaged package and return it to their center clerk. As I said before, it's in no ones interest to piss off two people.

As far as wages. Drivers make $34.79 an hour, that's a national pay scale. If you were allowed to work the legal limit of 20 hours OT per week, that would be $126,000 per year. Our drivers are restricted to 9.5 hours total per day, except the 4 weeks before Christmas. I was an overtime hound and the last ten years I worked I made about 70K for five years, 80K for 3 years, 90K my last full year, my last year I retired November 1st, so I missed 2 months.

40 percent of UPS full time employees pension is through UPS. They get basically $100 per month per year of service. That's $3,000 per month for 30 years of service, or $36,000 per year. OK pension, but a long way from 6 figures. The other 60 percent of full time employees get their pension through their local union. My local, Teamsters Local 639, has the highest UPS pension in the country. We have had really good trustees for many years. If you retire under age 60, or with less than 30 years, you pay a 5% penalty for each year under age 60. You also have to pay a penalty on your health care for being under 60. My pension with no penalties is about $5500 per month, or 66000 per year. I still have to pay state taxes.

Very good wages, very good pension and health care.

That still doesn't explain how a driver can deliver guns to a gun shop and have virtually no damage, and deliver guns shipped by regular people and have damages. Of course you don't have to ship your guns in a crate. There are probably me and 3 other people in the country that do that. But, the 4 of us never have a damage.

You also keep mixing facts up. The drivers make $34.79 an hour and they are the least likely person to damage a package, because they have the most to loose.

A hub worker makes about $10 an hour and has much less to loose. He's probably only going to work there a couple months before he quits anyway. If your package goes from one Coast to the other, it may be loaded and unloaded 6 or 8 times. The trailer that gets loaded in Corvallis, OR, does not come all the way to Laurel MD, where I worked. It will go to a big hub, get off loaded, consolidated into a more direct load, reloaded then go to another big hub, repeat, till it gets to MD. When it gets to the first hub an unloader puts it on a belt. Then it goes through scanners and to a sorter. The sorter puts it on another belt going to the trailer to continue. Then another sorter takes it off that belt and puts it on a slide into the trailer. So, from coast to coast your package can be handled by 25 to 30 different people.

You should be able to expect your packages to be handled with respect. You are right and they are. One of our managers used to say "Treat every parcel as if it were an honored guest in your home."

Our building processes 60-70 thousand pieces for delivery every day. They process another 100 thousand pieces for shipment to other hubs every night.

The easy answer is to ship it Next Day Air, it will only be handled 5 or six times and not as many belts and slides. Second Day Air is much cheaper than NDA and still reduces handling.

And, that's all I can say about that, Joe.

As far as broken guns go. You wonder why I drive any where I can to avoid shipping a gun. I'll be driving over 600 miles in January to pick up a couple to avoid shipping. BTW, the seller will be driving 100-150 miles to meet me. In the end, we'll both have full bellies and know the guns are safe. If you're going to ship, ask the seller to ship the same way Diamondjim ships. He sent me the solid frame K (which letters as such) in a custom made hard case that is so rugged I'm certain it would support being driven over by a P/U truck

Thank you, thank you, thank you. No, you "shouldn't" have to do that. No, you "don't have" to do that. But, after one broken gun, why "wouldn't" you do that from now on. I sold an antique tobacco tin for $2100, I bought a steel box to ship it in. It didn't get dented, Joe.

If I received 7 broken guns I'd take up knitting instead buying guns.

Not all of us are inclined thataway, but knock yourself out.

The more timid elements run for cover when the shipping starts.

With your track record you might want the wood shipped separate on future buys.

I can request it but it's up to the seller whether he wants to take apart the rifle or not. Only one has so far.

An other little thing, after you have had a couple claims, you become a suspect in the eyes of the company. With 7 claims we wouldn't make deliveries to your address. We would make you come into the delivery center and verify the condition of the contents. Roy, did all of your damages come UPS, or are you clumping all of the Gorillas in one box?

To say a rifle is not a delicate item? Try the Gateway Computer test and drop it from shoulder high.

Sorry I thought I heard Gary pull up, so I hung up fast.

This is what I don't get. I tell you the rifle rides thousands of miles in the back of a tractor, bouncing around in the middle of a pile, with hundreds of pounds on top.

It gets handled 25 30 times.

You still say it's one guy breaking them.

I tell you it can't be because we have cameras on all belts and and trailers.

And you just fight to stick up for the shipper. No one offered to take me up on sending them 7, 4 foot light bulbs in seven boxes. If one breaks I'll give you choice pick of all my 99's. If they all make it you give me choice pick of your, Joe.

Out of 60 or so that I've had shipped or have shipped out, I've had 3 damaged. Two cracks in the tang, one with a small chunk of wood missing from the tang. A few that survived horrible packing, a few that survived boxes that showed up looked like somebody tried to bend then in half. FedEx is the worst for me.

All I ever bought and had shipped ended up at my local gun dealer packed in a cardboard box, and the rifle and box unscathed. Maybe I'm lucky.

[quote=JoeMartin

You still say it's one guy breaking them.

I did?

And you just fight to stick up for the shipper.

I don't know what that means.

No one offered to take me up on sending them 7, 4 foot light bulbs in seven boxes. If one breaks I'll give you choice pick of all my 99's. If they all make it you give me choice pick of your, Joe.

I could pack something in a bank vault too but I doubt that would resemble the packaging of any guns I buy so I'm not sure what that proves. Joe, since you worked for UPS you're taking this kinda personal. You shouldn't.

[/quote]

If a guy were to break 7 guns (or drills, or axes, or chainsaws, or anything) most people would consider him damn careless or a serial abuser.

Roy, I do feel your pain, and yes I do take it personal. If you saw the crap wrapping people use and we still get it through in one piece, it's unbelievable. If you really thought it was the driver, I'd make a formal complaint. If all of your damaged rifles were UPS, I'd still make a formal complaint. The most likely place for a damage is on the belts. Not the people. We process close to a Quarter million packages in a 3.5 to 4 hour shift, in just one building. If a long package is caught in a turn and it gets wedged in place, it gets a lot of pressure on it. Yes, I go way, way over kill on any package I ship because I've seen the mechanization these pieces go through. But, you don't have to go that far. I'm just telling every one that soft foam and bubble wrap is not enough. A rigid box is needed.

People in this thread that have said, "You make a lot of money, you should take better care of our stuff", are way, way, off base. We do make good money, and destroying a package is a "Cardinal Sin" when it comes to termination. There are camera's every where, there are supervisors every where. Loss Prevention offers a $5,000 reward for ratting out theft and dishonest acts. The vast, vast number of damages are due to poor packing. I've had several people here tell me they received packages with the contents just slid in a box with no packing. You have to tell the people you deal with to do it right. My daughter wants the computer, I have to go, Joe.

I understand the handlers are overworked. They handle too many packages in too short a time, and the belt keeps moving even when you need to scratch your ass. I understand that the weight of a package isn't the #1 criteria used for determining where it's placed in the load, so heavy objects necessarily end up on top of more fragile objects. I hear ya Joe.

BUUUUUUTTTTT, that's not our problem. We pay for handlers to move an item from point A to B, and we expect it to arrived unmangled, which is completely reasonable. The USPS put a forklift thru a Sako for me, then denied the claim. I guess that's my fault?

It's also reasonable for you to be frustrated with the lack of padding and support packages are sent with, but ultimately, those are the conditions of the deal, and UPS has to deal with them, as the contractor hired to perform the job. I am a contractor and I deal with real conditions, as they are, to produce the finished product my customers need. I have problems in my processes if I can't somehow produce the desired results. Anything else is just excuses. I'm hired to solve a problem, not create one.

Making excuses about why it's ok to damage packages or how it happens, "because the handler in the hub only makes $10 an hour and will be gone in two months anyway", is not a healthy outlook. It reveals that someone somewhere has lost sight of the customer.

In a way, it reminds me of my wife's situation. Way too few people performing way too much work. Stress breakdowns, injuries, meltdowns, turnover. This is the Fed. gov BTW. Are the working conditions the clients fault, so we should yell at them when they need help?

Or are working conditions managements fault? (In this case Congress controls the purse strings, so it's a little different than "management", but you get the idea)

I just believe ultimately, that management must find better solutions to prevent this kind of damage, or they need to put the customers first and pay the claims when they occur.

In my experience, neither is happening at the expense to their customers, and they're ok with it.

I'm not.

Just for the record, I stopped by my local gun shop. Gary knows them too. I asked how many rifles he has received from the maker that have been damaged. He laughed and asked why, thought it was a joke. I told him about this thread and that I was serious. Never, not one. He's been in business since the early 70's, and never, not one.He also said he has gotten many that were just placed in a box to rattle around, no packing, and they made it OK. The only rifle he ever shipped that got broken was one going on a hunt, in a good hard case, and was broken by an Airline.

Roy, for the rest of this statement, if I use the term "you", I am not referring to you. I'm referring to every one here in this thread that thinks UPS'ers are jumping on their boxes, slamming them around, breaking them just to hear the glass tinkle. It is a collective you, just as the Gorilla is a collective Gorilla.


Now, you know I'm retired, I no longer work for UPS. BUUUUUT, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Because there is no way in this world UPS or any other shipper is going to check every box to see if some Bozo packed it correct, and if not, repack it for them for free

Now, you also know I'm not calling you names, because you are not the one doing the shipping. You are receiving.

As a shipping company, we expect people to pack shipments in a proper way. If they don't, and they get broken, the claim is not going to be paid. Many items are put in drop boxes and can't be inspected before they get in the system. They may be the soft squishy ones that undermine the middle of your long box.

Now, if you are shipping rifles out in old boxes that have been used several times, with the Sunday funnies wrapped around them, and they are getting damaged, that's a different story. That would make you the problem. Again, that is a collective you, not Roy.

Roy, you need to listen to yourself. Yes I understand that a lot of packages get pushed through a Hub in a few hours to make time commitments. Yes I understand they get handled by many people. Yes I understand they ride in bumpy tractor trailers. Yes I understand they ride up and down chutes, slides, and belts. No, I'm not going to change my shipping standards to meet the conditions I understand. No, it's someone else's job to check my box to see if I did it correct. No, if I didn't do it right, it's someone else's job to redo it for me free.

It is the driver that picks up a package's job to visually inspect the box, and refuse it if it looks suspect. If the driver refuses your box, are you going to tell them it's there job to see to it that it gets delivered any way. I feel like I'm beating my head on a wooden crate. But, if we used wooden crates, we wouldn't be having this discussion, Joe.

Roy, if I had 7 boxes of any kind damaged, I'd be livid. If we put a fork lift, which we don't use on or near packages, through a box, we would pay the claim. With that kind of damage you would never see it. You would be tracking the box, wondering why we didn't deliver it.

Stop grouping all shippers as the "Gorilla's". I can't respond to the others. Our customers are our only asset. We want them to be happy and successful. Our customer service will come out and show the collective "you", business, how to pack any item safely. Or take it to a customer counter, and have them check it. If the collective "you" does it wrong, don't keep doing it wrong.

Please show me where I said I expect someone else to repack my packages for me!

And for the record, I'm not having trouble with guns I shipped.

I just had a reply for all of your questions and I went back a page to make a quote, and it erased everything I printed.

1. I said I was using the term "you" collectively since so may were following this thread, and others are posting reply's.

2. If you are not having problems, then it looks like you're packing you guns well.

3. You are getting busted boxes, so it's the Gorilla's fault, not the shipper. That's why I said you are defending the shipper.

4. The USPS put a fork lift through one. That's one safe UPS Gorilla.

5. My local gun shop said he has received thousands and thousands of guns since he opened shop in the 70's and has never had one single gun from the manufacturer damaged.

6. You've bought at least 6 busted up guns that the Gorilla's went crazy on, because heaven forbid, the shipper didn't do a good job boxing it. Had to be the Gorilla's. Still protecting the shipper.

7. Now You, Roy, said you should be able to expect your goods to make it with out getting mangled, even though you understand the trials and tribulations of the shipping industry. I agree. But, what if you, Roy, hand the driver a piece of crap wrapped package. Because the driver didn't refuse it, does that mean the shipper is stuck with it and has to fix your piece of crap wrapped box or eat the claim?

8. Now, I know you, Roy, would not give the shipper a piece of crap wrapped box. I've seen the work you have done. I know the level of integrity you function at. But, many of the other "you's" out there will wrap a gun in the Sunday Funnies and call it good. I, me, Joe, believe that at least some of the guns you have received damaged were not packed correct, maybe all of them.

9. I have seen boxes fall off belts and bust open, other boxes get caught in jams and crushed, but you as the customer would never see them. They go straight to Overgoods, checked for damage and missing contents. If anything is wrong they get returned to the shipper. If all is good they get rewrapped and forwarded with a note that they had been through our Overgoods and rewrapped.

I know a lot of this is your frustration and venting. It's also become a bit of a game blaming the Gorillas. I'd be frustrated too. But, Me, Joe, would be flipping out on any shipper that did not have some kind of support on both sides of the box, not the arbitrary and fictional Gorilla. If I wanted to ship you a box there are dozens of dumpsters in front of new houses with pieces of plywood or particle board in them for the dumpster diver. We are not talking about new guns from the manufacturer, so that's off topic.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to convince me that you have received 7 perfectly boxed guns that were damaged. I don't believe it. You can get a rifle from Holland and Holland, or Rigby, and I bet they won't show up broken. I will also bet they don't show up in a box with peanuts or bubble wrap. Weather it's an H&H or a Stevens Favorite, if the shipper doesn't have the knowledge or pride to pack it right, all bets are off. The end, I'm done, Joe.

Joe old buddy, you're the best, no hard feelings ever from me.

Thank you Roy, Joe.