|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
What causes barrels to bulge? Thanks John
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,842
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,842 |
Sometimes its a space between the slug and powder.
1Minute
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,490
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,490 |
Or the mud and the powder.
Writing here is Prohibited by the authorities.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,423
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,423 |
Sounds like you got lucky 🍀
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
did u load a viagra inside by mistake?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
I was shooting 460 grain no excuses. Using triple 7 fffg. There was a " stickiness in the barrel" Had to really work em down the tube. Then they got easier to pass. They were grouping awfully. Switched to a power belt 395 grain. Shot two they grouped a little under 2.5 inches at 100 yards. Started to load number 3 and noticed the bulge...about 7 inches from the muzzel?
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,423
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,423 |
It has to be a bad spot in the steal I would not shoot it. What brand is the gun
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Thompson Center NW explorer.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,102
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,102 |
Such things usually occur when one shoots a bullet seated short with only a bullet starter and no follow thru with a ram rod to fully seat it. The cure is a new barrel.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Such things usually occur when one shoots a bullet seated short with only a bullet starter and no follow thru with a ram rod to fully seat it. The cure is a new barrel. Yes, did you start it and not fully seat it? Either way, that barrel is all done......which sucks, but it could have been worse....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 7,848
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 7,848 |
I'd talk to Thompson Center and see what they say. They might know what the deal is and if your lucky, they might give you a new barrel, but probably not. They'll probably claim operator error. 
Last edited by StoneCutter; 10/15/16.
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."
Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 |
Sounds like a classic case of overstimulation. You need to turn on parental controls on the cable box nearest your gun safe. It's shocking the stuff these black powder guns get into while we are away.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
I was shooting 460 grain no excuses. Using triple 7 fffg. If you were using stout charges meant for ffg, fffg is smaller-grained and will have more powder by weight than the same volume of ffg. fffg give more pressure and velocity than the same volume of ffg in other words.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Thompson center offers a lifetime guarantee I believe. I think the barrel developed a crud ring at the bulge. I was at my cabin and did not bring my full cleaning kit and against my better judgement kept shooting. Then the bullets began to load EASY. But the groups were horrible. I switched to the powerbelts, those two grouped and I was preparing to load a third to confirm final sight adjustment and noticed the bulge. It must be karma from my years of slandering powerbelts that got me. But I would guess the injury to the barrel happened the shot prior to it getting easy to load.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/15/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Whatever it was that caused the bulge, it wasn't the bullets. Especially powerbelts.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Power belts are $hit......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Right. And they make barrels bulge too.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Agreed. Totally my fault! It is the old haste makes waste that spanked me. My fault.The powerbelts instructions actually discuss the need to monitor crud rings when shooting triple 7. They recommend wet patching bore between shots which I failed to follow. The incredible deal is the accuracy the powerbelts exhibited even out of a barrel that was so severely damaged.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/15/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 7,848
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 7,848 |
I've been shooting Power Belts for about 15 years and have never seen a screwed up barrel. I use three 777 50-50 pellets. I can typically shoot 7 to 10 rounds before I need to swab it out.
.....and I shoot an Encore.
Last edited by StoneCutter; 10/15/16.
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."
Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Agreed. Totally my fault! It is the old haste makes waste that spanked me. My fault.The powerbelts instructions actually discuss the need to monitor crud rings when shooting triple 7. They recommend wet patching bore between shots which I failed to follow. The incredible deal is the accuracy the powerbelts exhibited even out of a barrel that was so severely damaged. Two things about "crud rings." First, they normally form down near the breech so you wouldn't expect them to cause a bulge near the muzzle in a good barrel. Second, they make loading hard but they are just powder residue so they shouldn't cause a barrel bulge either.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Right. And they make barrels bulge too. Never said they made the barrel bulge. Just that they are a piss poor choice of a muzzleloader bullet.......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
That is why I pressed on shooting. I am only speculating on why what occured. I really do not know. Other than my poor T/C barrel looks pregnant!
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Right. And they make barrels bulge too. Never said they made the barrel bulge. Just that they are a piss poor choice of a muzzleloader bullet....... Never failed me. I've heard some have trouble with them though.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,054
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,054 |
I'd be interested to hear what TC believes to be the cause. Got a picture of the barrel? That's a lot of bullet, what are you hunting?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
7" from the muzzle? Sure doesnt sound like a crud ring to me.
Did you have any misfires during the shoot where only the primer went off?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 7,848
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 7,848 |
7" from the muzzle? Sure doesnt sound like a crud ring to me.
Did you have any misfires during the shoot where only the primer went off and you loaded another one on top of it? Fixed it. Haa, I'm not sure if he'd still be here if he did.
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."
Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
How much T7 were you using with the 460s?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Lucky it wasn't a Spanish made POS or they would still be picking parts of it out of your face....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084 |
When you say they were loading "loose", how loose? It's not beyond the realm of imagination that a loose projectile could slide back up the barrel away from the powder charge? (If the barrel were tilted down.) Such a scenario will cause a bulge. Pretty far fetched, but still...
Last edited by gnoahhh; 10/15/16.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Not so far-fetched, I could see that happening with a less-than-bore-sized bullet.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Cow elk. I don't post photos (not on principle, just incompetence) but if you want me to text you a photo I will. P.M. me. Thanks.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Nope. The first shot felt weird though, hardly any recoil. At that time at 100 yards I was missing the back stop.. I believe I am using 70 or 80 grains.( I haven't changed my measure for three or four years) It was a new can of T7 fffg although. I always pack the conical in tight and check the ram rod level. But like I say the gun got really tight at the place where the bulge appeared. Then whoop! She started loaded easy until, of course the lower crud ring level. I was on the back stop then and was walking in the leupold m8 scope. But my last two 460 gainers had over 30 inch spread. I did not use a starter on my first 5 shots or so. But about an inch past the starter the conical was really getting tight for a few inches. That is where the bulge appeeared.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/15/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 145
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 145 |
No Excuse 460s are generally slip-fit in T/C barrels. Most everyone says they go down the pipe too loose.
The choice of powder and the lack of swabbing did-you-in.
The only Powerbelt models I avoid are the all lead and ballistic tip copper-clads. Also avoid any weight below 295 grains. The rest of the lineup is good, especially the Platinums, which are very good in performance.... but too expensive.
I buy all my Powerbelts on year-end closeout sales at Walmart. Really good deals in mid-December there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
In Idaho all that is legal is the pure lead beasts. No other than lead allowed in a projectile. Is there a better choice of granular powder? It has to go off using the #11;primers as that is all that is legal. Thanks. By the way I have similar opinions of the projectles. Thanks again for posting.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/16/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
The 348 405 and 444 lead powerbelts get the job done. I especially like the flat point version. I never understood the need for a hollow point pure lead conical.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Thanks, I will look for the flat points. I have only seen the hollow points. Especially the triple 4.....one of my favorite calibers. Just think a T4 powered by T7?
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/16/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
Just remembered that I had these pictures from years ago. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w581/FrontierMuzzleloading/Traditional/DSC_2421.jpg) The culprit? ![[Linked Image]](http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w581/FrontierMuzzleloading/Traditional/DSC_2662.jpg) This Hawken the owner thinks he loaded up, got side tracked, loaded again and the second ball, due to the air not being able to escape through the nipple, pushed itself off the first load and became an obstruction. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w581/FrontierMuzzleloading/Traditional/DSCN1166.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
A Powerbelt is nothing but a pure lead conical. It is plated to make it load easier, and has a belt and tip added that in effect do nothing. But I imagine they look real advanced to those ignorant of the facts. I love it when they call them the most advanced muzzleloader bullet on the market. Nice marketing. There is a sucker born every minute they say,
Why would you want a bore sized projectile in a muzzleloader? So you can have less BC and less SD? The Powerbelt is the most over rated, over priced bullet out there. Marketed at the clueless, of course. Because they make no sense on any level to anyone who knows their a$$ from a hole in the ground. Nor should they.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
the copper plating is to reduce leading in the bore. It doesnt even touch the rifling until its fired off. The skirt which ranges from .503 to the now larger, .508 range on the platinum/aerolite is what holds in the bore. The bullets .499" diameter is what makes it load easy,no engraving of the lead unlike say a maxi ball or great plains conical.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
A Powerbelt is nothing but a pure lead conical. It is plated to make it load easier, and has a belt and tip added that in effect do nothing. But I imagine they look real advanced to those ignorant of the facts. I love it when they call them the most advanced muzzleloader bullet on the market. Nice marketing. There is a sucker born every minute they say,
Why would you want a bore sized projectile in a muzzleloader? So you can have less BC and less SD? The Powerbelt is the most over rated, over priced bullet out there. Marketed at the clueless, of course. Because they make no sense on any level to anyone who knows their a$$ from a hole in the ground. Nor should they..... That's funny right there. Why would someone want a bore-sized conical you ask? That's a tough one. Let me think on it. Oh yeah, state law. Plated to make it load easier you say? Good one! As bigblock pointed out, they're less than bore-sized. I'm just guessing here, but I'm thinking that's what makes them load easier. The skirt has no function you say? Again, just guessing but since the bullet is less than bore-sized, I'm thinking the skirt is what holds it in place down on the powder charge. The reason I use 'em is, they're the most accurate bullet in my rifle. I think I've killed 10-12 elk with 'em, never failed me. I know three guys who post here who used 'em on elk this year, all one shot kills. Although some do have problems with 'em. Yep, there's definitely some cluelessness going around.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
That may be how they market it. And yes, the jacketing does help reduce fouling, but that isn't all.
Have you loaded a PB and unloaded it? The ones I have seen had rifling marks. Others, as you guys say, seemed to just fall down the bore.
Have you ever shot a PB without the base on it? They shoot the same. Not hard to figure out why.
They are nothing but plated lead conicals. Exhibiting lower sectional densities and ballistic coefficients than saboted bullets. They do not form as good of a gas seal either.
They are FAR from the most advanced as they like to claim. or hardest hitting. The lighter bullets are horrible. Which simple physics dictates. Some of the heavier offerings are not bad, given what they are I guess......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
price is always what brings up their main issue folks have with them and i agree that they are grossly overpriced, but then again, if they work and you can afford one package per year for the hunt. Its nothing to complain about.
The aerolites if you are a dealer are super cheap, By the time they hit store shelves they are charging 3x the cost due to the market. If folks are willing to pay that much and and success, let them. No one gets hurt and it keeps Americans at work.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
They are nothing but a lead conical in fancy clothes and perform as any other lead conical. Which means there are better bullets to be had. They have the BC of a workboot.
And yes, they are obviously over priced....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
all lead conicals have poor bc. The aerolites are pretty decent but then again, its a muzzle loader. If you want flat shooting, 3000 fps, they make centerfires for just that. Im shooting round balls, so i cant complain about poor bc 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
all lead conicals have poor bc. The aerolites are pretty decent but then again, its a muzzle loader. If you want flat shooting, 3000 fps, they make centerfires for just that. Im shooting round balls, so i cant complain about poor bc That is what I am saying. Already poor BC, being bore sized only makes it worse. Especially with anything but the very heavy bullets, for obvious reasons. A 300 gr. .452 in a sabot is gonna have a far better SD and BC than any bore sized bullet. And the sabot also forms a better seal and reduces fouling better. Plus, as we all know, a lead conical surely needs no tip to expand. It is either there for looks or to maybe try to increase a horrible BC. Either way, PB bullets do nothing as well as saboted bullets, and perform no differently than lead conicals, because that is exactly what they are....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
state laws. Sabots are not legal everywhere.
Used them in NM this year with my brother in laws deer hunt but next year, all round balls unless something new to play with comes out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Did not know that. WTF is the "reasoning" behind that?
So many stupid gun laws made by those who know nothing of guns....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
its to keep it a little more traditional. In Colorado for example, no scopes "unless you have a permit due to poor vision" no pellets, no sabots, no smokeless powder.
Only open sights * fiber optics ok* loose powder,conical bullets or patched balls. Plus theres also caliber and bullet weight limits.
Muzzleloader season is a primitive hunt. I'd actually like Colorado to add a special LATE season muzzle loader hunt thats sidelock or flint only with patched ball or lead conical only, loose powder, open sights. I think that would be nice and then for our current Ml season, keep it the same month of september but allow scopes and all that other junk.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
So a bullet in a plastic jacket is not traditional. But a bullet with a plastic tip and base is. I rest my case 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
its to keep it a little more traditional. It's also because we have a special early season before the centerfire rifle season and can hunt elk during the rut. Having a "long-range capable" muzzleloader would negate the rationale behind the special early season and probably mean too many bulls hitting the ground early.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
So a bullet in a plastic jacket is not traditional. But a bullet with a plastic tip and base is. I rest my case You're ignoring what you said yourself. A small diameter, aerodynamic saboted bullet is a big advantage if you want to shoot farther. A plastic skirt is not.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
So a bullet in a plastic jacket is not traditional. But a bullet with a plastic tip and base is. I rest my case You're ignoring what you said yourself. A small diameter, aerodynamic saboted bullet is a big advantage if you want to shoot farther. A plastic skirt is not. I believe you misunderstood. That was in regards to a saboted bullet vs. a PB and what is considered traditional and what is not...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
So a bullet in a plastic jacket is not traditional. But a bullet with a plastic tip and base is. I rest my case You're ignoring what you said yourself. A small diameter, aerodynamic saboted bullet is a big advantage if you want to shoot farther. A plastic skirt is not. I believe you misunderstood. That was in regards to a saboted bullet vs. a PB and what is considered traditional and what is not... No, I didn't misunderstand, look at my previous post. Bigblock is only partially right about the reason for the restrictions. The main reason is to keep the practical range of the rifles limited, since we can hunt bull elk during the rut and centerfire hunters can't. If they wanted to keep the season traditional, they wouldn't allow in-lines.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 |
"Traditional" should include a flint and powder pan. That's my official PA bias.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
So you are saying they allow the use of bore sized bullets and not sabots due to the former being poorer long range performers.
I would be very surprised if they actually looked into with that much detail, or even knew that much about it, but it is possible I guess.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245 |
I was shooting 460 grain no excuses. Using triple 7 fffg. There was a " stickiness in the barrel" Had to really work em down the tube. Then they got easier to pass. They were grouping awfully. Switched to a power belt 395 grain. Shot two they grouped a little under 2.5 inches at 100 yards. Started to load number 3 and noticed the bulge...about 7 inches from the muzzel? You didn't just short start it then fire did ya? If that's the case, I'd go buy some powerball tickets  , glad you're okay.
Trump Won!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084 |
In Idaho all that is legal is the pure lead beasts. No other than lead allowed in a projectile. Is there a better choice of granular powder? It has to go off using the #11;primers as that is all that is legal. Thanks. By the way I have similar opinions of the projectles. Thanks again for posting. John, I know it's anathema to the in-line crowd around here and other "technology trumps time-proven" worshipers, but have you tried good old black powder? Your #11 caps will light it off just fine. Being a patched round ball kind of guy, and a sometime devotee of Civil War era rifled muskets, I can't picture these projectiles of whence y'all speak. But from the sound of it aren't they merely a re-hash of the old Minie ball? What's new under the sun about that? Additionally, dig up some illustrations of the plethora of different projectiles used in rifles and carbines in the Civil War. You'll have your eyes opened at the number of weird designs tried out back then. I have said for years that those designers of "modern" ML projectiles got their ideas from the battlefields of 155 years ago.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,776
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,776 |
You had two close together, try shooting some groups with the P-belts. It might not be ruined, we killed a bunch of deer with powerbelts, before the smart people figured out that they are junk. A barrel that looks f'd up ain't necessarily so.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
So you are saying they allow the use of bore sized bullets and not sabots due to the former being poorer long range performers.
I would be very surprised if they actually looked into with that much detail, or even knew that much about it, but it is possible I guess..... Not sure why you think that way, but you're wrong. I've spoken to the people in (what was then) the DOW who were in on development of the regs. They're not stupid, and it's not rocket science. One of them is an avid muzzleloader, most hunt. They do this stuff for a living.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Muzzleloaders do not exactly produce sizzling velocities to begin with. Forcing hunters to use bullets of lower SD that penetrate even less, wound more, and contribute to a greater amount of lost game hardly seems like the responsible thing to do from the so-called experts in the DOW.
The lighter PB bullets are absolute crap because of their low SDs and are known for poor penetration.
Maybe they should choose a different profession.......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
I did not mean to start a power belt fight! But what I have is a barrel I damaged. With the 460 grain no excuses the rifle so a 40 inch group of two. With the power belts less than 2.5 inches. the target was not erect but in a angle laying on the birm,therefore the group is most likely much tighter.This was at 100 yards, off a pick up hood with a 10 mph wind. I think that tells the story. Before the rifle was damaged the rifle would shoot the 460 grain no excuses at an 2 inch group routinely. I can send a photo! I think that speaks loads about them power belts for accuracy. And I thought I should share this.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/16/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Muzzleloaders do not exactly produce sizzling velocities to begin with. Forcing hunters to use bullets of lower SD that penetrate even less hardly seems like the responsible thing to do from the so-called experts in the DOW.
The lighter PB bullets are absolute crap because of their low SDs and are known for poor penetration.
Maybe they should choose a different profession....... Yeah, they should probably ban archery hunting too, especially traditional bows since they have a much more limited range than an open-sighted muzzleloader. It's just not responsible for them to allow that, seeing as how it forces the hunter to get up close and all. It does crack me up to hear a self-appointed authority focus on BCs, SDs, and so forth when we're talking about a rifle that shoots a slow-moving big hunk of lead. And who's talking about lighter powerbelts besides you?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
I did not mean to start a power belt fight! No worries, some just have an axe to grind.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
I will try some black powder gnnoah! Thanks.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Nobody is forcing anyone to use a traditional bow. The way some idiot in the DOW is forcing someone to use an inferior bullet. See the difference?
And why? Because they would rather someone wound an animal than take one a little further ways out with a more reliable bullet? Sounds like some really well thought out logic by the people "who are not stupid and do it for a living".
LMAO.
Sorry Angus. I am done talking about PB bullets now. Nor do I have an axe to grind. I can understand Smokepole and whomever using them if some idiotic regulation forces them to. But I'd not use them by choice otherwise......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
One thing to remember with those No excuse bullets is how loose they fit into some bores. My friends cva wolf, they wouldnt even fit because they were so loose and could move off the charge. No way you can hunt with a bullet like that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
To be honest, I thought we figured out the problem and the cure on page 1......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
One thing to remember with those No excuse bullets is how loose they fit into some bores. My friends cva wolf, they wouldnt even fit because they were so loose and could move off the charge. No way you can hunt with a bullet like that. Yeah, that would be really not good. Wow. That is flat out dangerous. How does something like that even make it to market? Did you mic the bullet or the bore?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
perhaps but u ever know. When a gun blows up, its an even harder story to solve because its blown up. A bulged barrel 7" from the muzzle is even harder, because its 7". Not many short starters go that far in.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Short seated bullet or plugged bore are first things that come to mind. Never heard of bullets rolling around in barrels before. I listened to a guy brag about his new Browning shotgun for a 150 mile ride. Then watched him blow it up on the first shot. Snow will do that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Nobody is forcing anyone to use a traditional bow. The way some idiot in the DOW is forcing someone to use an inferior bullet. See the difference? You're as FOS as a Christmas turkey. People have been killing stuff with bore-sized conicals since there were bore-sized conicals and there are plenty of good bullets to choose from. Anybody who says bore-sized conicals are no good for killing stuff is a flipping idiot. And no one is forcing anyone to use a bore-sized bullet anyway Einstein. You could fill volumes with what you don't know about hunting in Colorado. If anyone wants to hunt in Colorado with a saboted bullet, smokeless powder, and/or a Hubble scope on a muzzleloader, he can. He just can't do it in the special early season during the rut. If you want to hunt the early season, you make the choice to accept the limitations and get closer. That's what early seasons with primitive weapons are all about. See the difference? Of course some will whine about the regs, even those who've never hunted here and never plan to. Some people just need something to whine about.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,730
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,730 |
Angus, I've got no idea what caused the bulge so close to the muzzle.
Everybody knows of the dangers when a bullet isn't seated snug on the powder but that doesn't sound like what your dealing with.
Send it back to TC and let them have a look so we all know!
2muchgun,
muzzleloader season out west is a special Primitive season and regulated as such. Idaho is different than Colorado is different than Michigan.
I won't address bows or shotguns, read more, post less, may help avoid confusion.
"Camping places fix themselves in your mind as if you had spent long periods of your life in them.
You will remember a curve of your wagon track in the grass of the plain like the features of a friend."
Isak Dinesen
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
its to keep it a little more traditional. In Colorado for example, no scopes "unless you have a permit due to poor vision" no pellets, no sabots, no smokeless powder.
Only open sights * fiber optics ok* loose powder,conical bullets or patched balls. Plus theres also caliber and bullet weight limits.
Muzzleloader season is a primitive hunt. I'd actually like Colorado to add a special LATE season muzzle loader hunt thats sidelock or flint only with patched ball or lead conical only, loose powder, open sights. I think that would be nice and then for our current Ml season, keep it the same month of september but allow scopes and all that other junk. Wow. It sure seems that this states no sabots in Colorado. I was going by what you guys said. Sorry if you don't know the hunting regs of your own state. Wow.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
2muchgun,
muzzleloader season out west is a special Primitive season and regulated as such. Idaho is different than Colorado is different than Michigan.. Yeah, I get that. And am not the one who started down that road, and truly couldn't give a $hit less about what the regs in Colorado are. One guy says sabots, the other guy no sabots. One guy says to keep things traditional, the other guy says to limit shooting range. Maybe they should argue their state regs between themselves, cuz I don't care about them......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
The bigger conicals rely on "inertia" or compression of itself to seal the bore. I have had good luck with them especially in colder weather where plastic may behave differently due to brittelness. With the big conical one needs a fouled bore. But too fouled can apparently cause bigger problems. I cleaned the rifle with the bulge and the rifling in the bore where the bulge is looks grossly stressed and deformed. I 5hink I will pass on shooting it anymore. Out west muzzeloaders are restricted to these rules concerning sights, ignition, and projectiles. I guess the bears gotta eat.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/16/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Wow. It sure seems that this states no sabots in Colorado.
I was going by what you guys said.
Sorry if you don't know the hunting regs of your own state.
Wow.....
He's talking about the special early season, and I'm sure he knows that you can use all that stuff during the general firearms season. Unlike you. See the difference? Like I said, what you don't know about hunting in Colorado could fill volumes, as you've already proven. If you want to continue to talk about Colorado regs, my advice is to learn at least a little about them. Maybe they should argue their state regs between themselves, cuz I don't care about them...... Too funny, you're the one arguing about them. I'm just giving you the facts. It's the only way you'll have any.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
I was arguing what the hunting regs in Colorado are? Really? Show me where.
The only "facts" are that you guys both from Colorado said 2 different things----twice....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
And you're not smart enough to figure it out, that much is clear.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
I said show me where.
Sorry you can't comprehend a simple thread where YOU and Jonathan both clearly stated that you guys use PB bullets because of state law.
I never said jack about regs in Colorado. Let alone argued what they were. Did you fantasize this?
Go back and read it. Maybe the second time around will the charm.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
All I see is one of you stating sabot use, loooong after the other stated no sabot use. And both of of you stating using PB use due to state law.
And one of you stating bore sized bullets to keep it traditional, but the other stating it is to limit range.
Again, sorry you guys don't know the rules of your back yard, or the "sound reasoning" behind such well thought out regulations.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Sorry you can't comprehend a simple thread where YOU and Jonathan stated that you guys use PB bullets because of state law..... Bullsh**. What I said was, we use bore-sized conicals because of state law. Here it is verbatim: That's funny right there. Why would someone want a bore-sized conical you ask?
That's a tough one. Let me think on it. Oh yeah, state law.
In plain English. You want me to draw a picture?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Sorry you can't comprehend a simple thread where YOU and Jonathan stated that you guys use PB bullets because of state law..... Bullsh**. What I said was, we use bore-sized conicals because of state law. Here it is verbatim: That's funny right there. Why would someone want a bore-sized conical you ask?
That's a tough one. Let me think on it. Oh yeah, state law.
In plain English. You want me to draw a picture? Holy fuuk. Can you read? I just said that.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
I think you better go night night.......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
And both of of you stating using PB use due to state law. Once again, nobody said state law requires the use of Powerbelt bullets.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Go to bed, you have lost it.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
I have only studied Oregon and Idaho regulations. I never seen a Colorado regulation book, or pamphlet.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
I also hunt the Minnesota December muzzelseason. The no excuses work wonders in the cold climate there.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Again, sorry you guys don't know the rules of your back yard, or the "sound reasoning" behind such well thought out regulations..... Too funny. If you want to understand the CO muzzleloader regs. and the rationale behind them, find a copy of the 2003 Hunting Guide published by the (then) DOW. There's an article in there that goes over all this stuff. I wrote it.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Go to bed, you have lost it..... No, you have. Or, show me where I said CO law requires use of Powerbelt bullets. That's twice you've claimed I said that. I didn't.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
But I don't want to though. You just won't shut up about them...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
That's funny right there. Why would someone want a bore-sized conical you ask?
That's a tough one. Let me think on it. Oh yeah, state law.
Plated to make it load easier you say? Good one! As bigblock pointed out, they're less than bore-sized. I'm just guessing here, but I'm thinking that's what makes them load easier.. Pretty sure you were talking about PB bullets here when you cited state law as to why you used them. Or were you talking about different bore sized plated conicals with skirts that are under sized? LMAO. You really have lost it.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
I didn't think so. FOS as a Christmas turkey was too kind.
"2muchgums"
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Pretty sure you were talking about PB bullets here when you cited state law as to why you used them. Or were you talking about different bore sized plated conicals with skirts that are under sized? Wrong. I was talking about bore-sized bullets, as the quote above shows in plain English. You can look it up.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
I was arguing what the hunting regs in Colorado are? Really? Show me where Still waiting. Where? It makes sense that you wrote it and don't know what it says. Just like you wrote stuff here in this thread and don't know what it says either I'm going to bed. I suggest you put the glue tube down. Later....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
Pretty sure you were talking about PB bullets here when you cited state law as to why you used them. Or were you talking about different bore sized plated conicals with skirts that are under sized? Wrong. I was talking about bore-sized bullets, as the quote above shows in plain English. You can look it up. Yeah in plain english it states undersized plated bullets with skirts. Not PB huh? Ok what then? You just can't make this $hit up. It is like someone hit the stupid button. Later....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
A Powerbelt is nothing but a pure lead conical. It is plated to make it load easier, and has a belt and tip added that in effect do nothing. But I imagine they look real advanced to those ignorant of the facts. I love it when they call them the most advanced muzzleloader bullet on the market. Nice marketing. There is a sucker born every minute they say,
Why would you want a bore sized projectile in a muzzleloader? So you can have less BC and less SD? The Powerbelt is the most over rated, over priced bullet out there. Marketed at the clueless, of course. Because they make no sense on any level to anyone who knows their a$$ from a hole in the ground. Nor should they..... Dipshcitt: My post, the one where you claim I said state law requires use of powerbelts, was a point-by-point rebuttal of the ignorant post of yours quoted above. You asked why anyone would want a bore-sized projectile. I answered, and told you it was because of state law. Nowhere did I say state law requires powerbelts. You also made a couple of ignorant claims about powerbelts. I answered, one by one. See how that works? I can still draw you a picture. Not sure it would help though.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
I was arguing what the hunting regs in Colorado are? Really? Show me where. Dipshitt: I never said you were arguing about what the regs are. It's apparent that you have no clue what the regs are. I said you were arguing about the regs, and you were. There are a couple of pages of you arguing about how stupid the regs are. You going to deny that 2muchgums?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
I never said you were arguing about what the regs are.
I said you were arguing about the regs, and you were.
I can read and comprehend what was written just fine. It is you that suffers an obvious handicap. Once again contradicting yourself. May I suggest entering a program? And if you wrote the regs and dont know what they are, well that would make perfect sense given the proof you have provided us here. And the regs are stupid by the way. Which also makes sense now. But at no point did I argue what they were, and you still haven't shown me where, because you can't. Nor do I care what they are, or of your obvious obsession with them. Or for your going way out of your way at our expense just so you could tell us that you wrote them. Bravo. Congratulations. They suck. You have a "special" day. Don't sniff any more glue.......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
I can read and comprehend what was written just fine. Are you sure about that? I don't think so. And if you wrote the regs and dont know what they are, well that would make perfect sense given the proof you have provided us here.
And the regs are stupid by the way. Which also makes sense now. But at no point did I argue what they were, and you still haven't shown me where, because you can't. Nor do I care what they are, or of your obvious obsession with them. Or for your going way out of your way at our expense just so you could tell us that you wrote them. Bravo. Congratulations. They suck.
You have a "special" day. Don't sniff any more glue.......
LOL, I never said I wrote the regs, dumbass. I said I wrote an article about them: If you want to understand the CO muzzleloader regs. and the rationale behind them, find a copy of the 2003 Hunting Guide published by the (then) DOW. There's an article in there that goes over all this stuff.
I wrote it. I also said I've spoken to the DOW people who were involved in the development of the regs, that should have been a clue for you. You can't read worth a schitt. When you're flapping your gums at Mach2, it's hard to absorb information, isn't it? One last thing. I didn't "go out of my way" to say anything about the state regs, you're the one who brought the subject up with your ignorant question about why anyone would choose to shoot a bore-sized bullet. All I did was tell you that state law required bore-sized bullets, whereupon you launched into a few pages of ignorant BS about how stupid the regs were. I told you I wrote the article so you'd know that I have more than a passing interest in the subject and actually put in the work to interview the people who developed the regs., plus the state muzzleloading association, plus the NMLRA to get their take. In other words, I'm informed on the subject, unlike you.
Last edited by smokepole; 10/17/16.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
And the regs are stupid by the way. Which also makes sense now. But at no point did I argue what they were....... Once again, I didn't say you argued what they were, I said you argued about how stupid they were: Did not know that. WTF is the "reasoning" behind that?
So many stupid gun laws made by those who know nothing of guns.... So a bullet in a plastic jacket is not traditional. But a bullet with a plastic tip and base is. I rest my case So you are saying they allow the use of bore sized bullets and not sabots due to the former being poorer long range performers.
I would be very surprised if they actually looked into with that much detail, or even knew that much about it, but it is possible I guess..... Muzzleloaders do not exactly produce sizzling velocities to begin with. Forcing hunters to use bullets of lower SD that penetrate even less, wound more, and contribute to a greater amount of lost game hardly seems like the responsible thing to do from the so-called experts in the DOW.
The lighter PB bullets are absolute crap because of their low SDs and are known for poor penetration.
Maybe they should choose a different profession....... Nobody is forcing anyone to use a traditional bow. The way some idiot in the DOW is forcing someone to use an inferior bullet. See the difference?
And why? Because they would rather someone wound an animal than take one a little further ways out with a more reliable bullet? Sounds like some really well thought out logic by the people "who are not stupid and do it for a living". You're as stupid as dog schitt.
Last edited by smokepole; 10/17/16.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Another question I have is. The power belt instructions advise a certain primer to reduce the crud from Triple seven? Is this primer efficacious? Is it a 209 or #11? Thanks.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/17/16.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
It's a 209 that's weaker than standard primers.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,955
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,955 |
It seems the hotter the primer, the more pronounced the crud ring is. Winchester came out with a lower powered 209 T7 primer to specifically address this. I've shot T7 powder with both #11 and 209 primers and the crud ring with the 209s is usually lower in the bore and more concentrated. With #11s there didn't seem to be as much of a "ring" of fouling, more like an area further up the bore. As to why and where you got the bulge with that load is a mystery to me.
Charter Member
Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes."
szihn
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
the other year i talked to CPW and basically we are limited due to the uneducated that write and enforce these hunting laws. The guy I talked to..... Oh no! We don't allow sabots because they don't produce enough energy to take down wildlife. Yet they allow a 10mm pistol for elk
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
You need to talk to the right people, not just "a guy from CPW."
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Thanks 4 the advice. I will let you guys know what Thompson Center says when I send in the rifle.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,404
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,404 |
"find a copy of the 2003 Hunting Guide published by the (then) DOW"
Smoke: A bit difficult to find a 13 year old Co wildlife publication. Since you are the author could you post it? Not trying to argue, I am just interested in the reasoning. Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
I'll see if I can find the original MS Word file. But the reasoning is just what I said-to limit the effective range during the time when bulls are vulnerable.
They allow inlines so tradition is not the reason.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,072
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,072 |
Not on subject,but every PB I have pulled has had rifling engraved upon it,295 gr and 348 gr. The few I have recovered in the animal have had engraved rifling on it.
The Aerotipped seems to expand more than a hollow point,but if your remove the tip,you will see the hollow point under it is the exact size as one without.
This year,I was some what perplexed.I killed an elk with the 348 and it was expanded a little more than I wanted. No bone was hit except ribs. A week later killed a small whitetail with 295 Aerotip and it flattened completely and no bones were hit except ribs.Both were charged with BH209, 90 and 100 gr respectively. Probably need to go to 80 gr.
Previously , using another rifle that cannot use BH209,I was using black powder. The last elk I killed with it,I was using the 295 gr Aerotipped and it slugged all the way thru the elk, stopping under the hide on the far side.Hardly any appreciable expansion.That was with 100 gr of black powder.
Prior to those two rifles,I hunted with a TC Hawkin using Pyrodex, 777 or BP.The BP performed the best and didn't degrade from one year to the next.The bullet was the 370 gr Maxiball. It killed elk consistently with the great expansion.I even hollow pointed some
With these heavy bullets, and you cut a 50 cal hole thru and animal,you do not need much expansion and for sure SD doesn't mean much when shooting 100 yards or less.
AS for the CO regs saying you can use a scope if you have poor eyesight is not true. You must have an eye disease or injury and must have a certification from an optometrist or opthamalogist. Old eyes with failing vision doesn't cut it. .
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
I whole heartedly disagree with sectional density not meaning anything. But to each his own
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Well, when you're using a 350-450 grain .50 caliber hunk of lead at 1500-1600 fps, what exactly does SD mean?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084 |
Well, when you're using a 350-450 grain .50 caliber hunk of lead at 1500-1600 fps, what exactly does SD mean? Amen to that.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
It means it is the proper sectional density. I understand that fast monolithic do not require the SD of a lead projectile. But SD is a measurement that will predict how lead will penetrate. If one chooses to shoot let's say a 180 grain round ball at a mature elk, one will be best trying to avoid impact with bone. I try to stay above .25 for lead based bullets on elk. But like I say I have killed with arrows, and I am sure a 22 mag would also work. So basically a 385 grain or greater 50 caliber I would personally consider as adequate elk " medicine". But 2 each his own.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
350 gains is 90% of 385 grains. So if you need to troll over 10% lead on.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,084 |
Well, sectional density for a ML projectile means more when talking long range "carry-ability" than it does for tissue damage - given relatively short range impact. Given a large enough round ball with its piss-poor SD, you'd be surprised at the damage it can do. Trouble is, it runs out of steam quickly as range increases (in terms of velocity loss with attendant lessened energy and increased drop) which is where higher SD projectiles come into their own. That said, if I wanted to shoot at big stubborn animals at 200 yards I would rather use a .30-06, and if limited by ML hunting regs, either pass up the shot or try to get closer.
I limit my shooting with .45 and .50 round balls to 100 yards or less. But then again I hunt in relatively thick woods with no chance of an across-the-field shot so I can get away with it nicely.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,569
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,569 |
Before you throw that barrel away cut it off right behind the bad spot. Its cery simple with a muzzleloader. I've been shortening 50 calber barrels to 20" or so for the last few years. With that twist it may not shoot well but its still worth a try.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Thanks. Good idea! But I think T C will replace it 4 free.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 145
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 145 |
Thanks. Good idea! But I think T C will replace it 4 free. I seriously doubt they will. They know when a bullet has been improperly loaded / short-started, or when the bullet/sabot combo is too loose for the bore. That bulge was most-likely caused by either short-starting (or) the bullet / sabot combo moved off the powder charge during transit, prior to firing it. OR, the shooter may have encountered a no fire prior to putting on the new primer and firing the ML that produced the bulge Sometimes when only the primer ignites and not the powder, the bullet will move/loosen in the barrel. Sounds like gun owner errors here..... not the fault of the manufacturer. I'm betting T/C will say the same thing.
Last edited by GoexBlackhorn; 10/21/16.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,569
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,569 |
Thanks. Good idea! But I think T C will replace it 4 free. if you decide to cut it. i cut them with a band saw ,file it as flat and square as you can. take a big countersink and crown the inside,touch up with the finest file you have to remove any burs. a q-tip work great for checking for small burs on the edge of the rifling. i usually take a buffing wheel on my dremel and smooth everything up before rebluing the muzzle. ever gun that i have cut actually shot better after it was shortened.rod holders are the only problem you could have depending on where the bulge is. you may have to drill and tap to get the rod holder to work.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947 |
TC hasnt made that rifle or any omega for a couple years or more. I doubt the NW version was very popular so you may end up with no choice but to cut the barrel down.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
I hope they put in a faster twist. Like the regular omega. But I will let you know how it goes.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
Has this thing ever been sent to TC or a warranty call even placed yet?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,454
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,454 |
Flintlock is very popular here in central PA, and guys really took advantage of Thompson Center. Thompson would replace almost anything in the past.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,202
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,202 |
Agreed. Totally my fault! It is the old haste makes waste that spanked me. My fault.The powerbelts instructions actually discuss the need to monitor crud rings when shooting triple 7. They recommend wet patching bore between shots which I failed to follow. The incredible deal is the accuracy the powerbelts exhibited even out of a barrel that was so severely damaged. Crud rings don't form 7" from the muzzle. They form much closer to the breech.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
Wish I'd thought to mention that.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,017
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 45,017 |
What causes barrels to bulge? Thanks John operator headspace and timing..................
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
Cut the barrel off and recrown
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
501 members (10gaugemag, 12344mag, 10gaugeman, 160user, 007FJ, 1beaver_shooter, 59 invisible),
2,807
guests, and
1,276
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,491
Posts18,471,967
Members73,936
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
