Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Are the new miniature red dot cut CCW pistols really game changers?

Absolutely!

Not a great picture and the deltapoint is shown with its protective cover, but it absolutely cowitnesses the suppressor sights. Same for my 9 Pro and Trijicon RMR.



I am decently fast with both but nowhere near as fast as the frame mounted cmore on my 38 super.

The frame mounts are immensely quicker but totally asinine for ccw. That said we are still out trying to fill the rest of our groups deer tags and the 38 super is on my belt owb with a Bladetech doh bracket to clear the pack straps. So far several coyotes hate it.

I'm guessing your splits are fast. But what about your presentation from concealment to first shot time?

I have considered putting a Fastfire sight on my carry pistol, but dismissed the idea. I have one on my MKIII, and yes, it compensates immensely for aging eyes while hunting small game at distance. But it isn't the quickest solution by a long shot. If the game is going to be up close, I am far quicker on the shot with the FO front sight ahead of the "ghost ring" rear blade. I've been using the gun with these two configurations for several years now, and although I am faster to the first shot with the dot than I was initially, the ghost ring is still faster on target up close.

For defensive purposes though, standard open sights with a big rear notch are what I still run with. KISS.

If an RMR or similar red dot milled into your slide is hanging something up on the draw, you seriously need to re-think your carry methods.

Then again, I'm guessing someone who's considering a cheap Fastfire for carry is probably not that serious about carrying anyway. Just a guess?

Why do so many people focus on being average, instead of being prepared to handle that more unlikely situation that requires a bit more skill? Can you really not imagine a scenario where you'd need to shoot farther than 15 yards? Stretch your abilities out a little guys, you might be surprised what you can do when you focus on being good instead of just average.

You shouldn't even need the sights to hit a chest at 15 yards. A red dot is good for more precise shots or longer distances; if someone has trouble hitting at bad breath distance they need more practice, not better gear.

I imagine most of these arguments also came up when dot sights first came to the market for rifles.

They're plenty reliable. Quality dots for pistols aren't going to wear out because the slide reciprocates. That's what they're made for. If you buy something like a Vortex, I'd expect it to be trash. You couldn't give me a Vortex red dot, for a pistol or a rifle.

The notion that they'll get hung up on "every piece of clothing" is crazy. They're not made out of velcro.

Slide mounted dots are here to stay. They seem to be incredibly polarizing, but they're not going away.

How often do you shoot at 15 yards without any sights on your gun?

And hitting a "chest" shouldn't be your goal, as most targets have "chests" that are nearly useless at depicting what you should be trying to hit. A "chest" and an 8" circle at 15 yards are two very different things, and hitting that 8" circle at 15 yards would be quite a trick.

Yep........

With Sig milling the 320 and selling it "packaged" with the new Romeo, it won't be long before we're seeing them on duty.

There are a few agencies around here allowing them on duty already.

That's why I asked. So, I assume your answer is that you have identified a dot sight that does not hang up. Thanks. But what about those times? (which include the time to align the sight) Are they the same or better than with iron sights?

As for the Fastfire, my "considering" ended where the difference in acquiring the dot compared to acquiring the ghost ring began. The RMR is faster than Fastfire?

Re: my seriousness - Ain't no operator here. Just a guy with a gun he's very familiar with.

Word.

Sightless shooting (not "point shooting") is high on my agenda. 8" circle at 15 yds is probably do-able with the right gun, but it would be much faster with the sights (for me).

You are right about all of that, but I was making a point about guys worrying about the best gear while having a mediocre mindset.

I'm aiming for a much smaller target at 15 yards if I'm trying to be precise, but I definitely can hit a chest size target every time at that distance without using sights, and your 8" circle most of the time. It's not really that hard with the right mindset and some practice.

The details weren't really my point though; I was trying to address the mindset that keeps so many ccw guys from getting better with their guns.

None of the red dot sights I've used have ever hung up on the draw, and that includes a lot of practice with dynamic movement and grappling/wrestling with an adversary. From what I've seen, the whole idea of the sights getting hung up is made-up internet legend from detractors of the red dot concept.

The one exception might be pocket carry, but the gun itself or your hand can hang up there too; hence my comment to re-think your carry method.

Regarding the discussion about times - one word: practice. It's a different system than plain iron sights; there is a learning curve. Do make sure you have co-witnessed sights, and use a quality red dot that's not going to crap out when you rack the slide against a bad guy's teeth.

I'm no "operator" either, but I'm serious enough about defending me and mine that I won't choose parts for my carry gun based on price. That is where my comment about the Fastfire comes from. Being "just a regular guy" doesn't mean cheap stuff is adequate for serious situations. Personally I'd rather have no red dot sight at all than a cheap one, when it comes to a carry gun.

I don't think red dot sights are as big a game changer as some claim, but at the same time, I think most of the claimed downsides come from people who haven't really tried them seriously. The one real downside I've found with them is that they obstruct the view down the slide for point shooting; that can be addressed with technique, and I hope will be improved on future generations of sights as new products are developed.

Not sure what the civilian situation would be that would justify shooting in self defense out beyond 15-20 yards? Nike defense would likely be a better choice

So, no actual time to first shot comparison then?

I'm with ya on the part I bolded in your quote. Personally, unless my eyesight is really failing, I don't see me going to a dot sight even if you buy it for me. My "regular guy" comment was in reference to the fact that I am about as likely to need such a device (for longer shots than I can do with irons, I assume) on my defense pistol as I am to win the lottery. And I don't play the lottery either. When it comes to having a usable dot sight or spending more on practice - I'm going with the latter......until my eyes really get bad.

But seriously - have you timed the difference?

After considering all of this including the idea that a G19 with an RMR and suppressor height sights is going to be more cumbersome to carry and again first rule "have a gun" I got to thinking more about just buying better sights. For instance the trijicon sight with the rounded U rear sight and the big orange ball front sight really is a big help. So while I remain intrigued with these more complex systems (but not anything vortex or for that matter Keltec) it is an added level of optical and electronic complexity on a fast mover, even the lasers don't reciprocate. Don't say anything about dinosaurs, wagon trains and flintlocks...

I have timed the difference, comparing a Glock 19 with a Leupold Deltapoint installed with an iron-sighted Glock 19. In the first week of practice the dot was slower; after a week the times were equal at 10 yards and the dot was faster beyond 10 for precise shots (dot-drill, not "point shooting for center mass").

A dot is slower the first time you try it and if you don't practice it willl never get faster. But if you put the time in, the dot has several advantages and most of the so called "disadvantages" are more apparent than real.

I have not compared them with a timer, but if I did it would be really close at shorter distances. Of my two Glock 19s (one stock, one RMR/irons), I'm pretty much equal with both out to 10-15 yards. The advantage of the red dot is in more precision past that distance, even though I have excellent vision and still shoot pretty well with irons.

LOL, posted at the same time, saying the same thing. Good explanation, probably clearer than I said it.

Are you using the original DP, or the Pro? I'm thinking of going with the DP Pro next time for the clearer glass compared to the RMR.