Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 223 Ackley in AR?

Any one have any knowledge or experience running an AR with the 223 AI round? Thinking of heading in that direction.

Sorry no. It looks like pretty minimal gain with less body taper (reliable in & out).

How about this, a 223 based on 6.8 round:

http://68forums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-38770.html

Ha, easy to say.

My cousin has chambered 223WSSM and 22DTI, trying to get an automatic 22-250 but found both of those either troublesome or not capable of his expectations.

He now has 4 or 5 223AI's with barrels from 20-24" and loves them. He's not quite at his 22-250 goal but the coyotes don't know it.

I had a Kimber Montana chambered to 223AI and love it. Those who say they don't feed well or they don't gain much haven't messed with one. I'm getting 3570 fps with a 55 grain NBT in my 22" barrel and it feeds fine.

Even if speed isn't your goal, no case trimming is worth the chambering alone. I have an extra upper and a few parts laying around and might wind up building me too if the bat cave gets back to work.

in a word NO there pretty much isn't a way to do a 223 AI in an Ar 15. The reason is when an ackley chamber is cut and if its done correctly they actually tighten the headspace .004" over a standard 223 round. this is called a crush fit, and its a resistance you should feel as you close the bolt on a piece of brass in an ackley chamber. granted many gunsmiths don't even know they are supposed to do it and the reasons why.

the problem with not shortening the headspace below that of the standard round when you go to fireform the brass the case initially expands sticking to the chamber walls instead of the brass just flowing forward it flows back stretching the case where you DO NOT want it stretched. this can lead to case head separations. I have a 280 ackley that I am just getting around to getting setup after a new barrel. apparently there is a difference between the headspace on hornady 280 brass and nosler. the hornady is shorter, I tried forming a case with creme of wheat and found I had a slight protruding primer. This told me right away I had too much headspace for that brass.

that is the long version, if you could somehow by brass that was preformed and the chamber cut just to it then you could run a 223 ai in an ar 15, but a crush fit on the brass aint going to work in an AR for obvious reason. if you are looking for more umph in an ar 15, I would recommnd the 22x6.8 or 6x6.8 black hole makes barrels already for them. I would do it myself but I lose too much brass and 6.8 brass isn't that cheap. one day I hope they standardize with plug and play parts a high compacity ar 15 cartridge. something along the lines of the 6.5 br case in compacity.

I looked a few years ago at a .223AI Upper a guy hap built for competition. IIRC it was a single loader. COAL and Pressure would not make the .223AI advantagous in an AR platform.

CC, again you don't have a clue.

The AR fire forms AI brass just fine and out of the thousands of rounds cuz has shot, he's never had a case separate. NEVER.

The 22DTI is a 22-6.8 and the AI beats it velocity wise if you want to load the brass again. Ask Mike and see what his max loads are.

Again those who say it don't work are the ones that have never tried it.

I second the 6X6.8

Hey TRW if your cousin was wanting a. 22-250 in an AR he should just go to a 204R in an AR the ballistics are in the same ballpark.

My apologies for not taking my question a but further. A local PRS style competition has adjusted it's monthly match to having every 3rd match based on the 223 case; standard or AI'd. I cannot use any other case chambering.

Thank you

Oh so I don't have a clue? I just explained something in detail that escapes many gunsmiths and why it needs to be that way. I don't care what others do. Go do your own home work, get ackleys book. This stuff is out there. Call around a good resource is Greg tannell one of the most knowledgeable gunsmiths I can think of who makes tools and equipment for other gunsmiths . You just made yourself look like an ass hat. I love ackley's but its not really feasible in an ar 15.

Twr I got you on this one we can keeep taking it further if you want if you want to go full azz hat

204 or 20 Practical.......

If CC's fingers are typing, he's likely to be wrong. But anyone who's been paying attention knows that.

TWR has seen it work. Multiple times. But CC figures it maybe probably won't.

So blue your ready to go full azz hat too? Why are you even commenting?it's clear you don't even have the beginnings of a clue about the ackley crush fit. Google it.

Twr notice how it's a cousin or friend this or that. How many ackley chambered guns have you owned? Why are you even in a thread where you haven't even messed with ackley cases, same with you bluedart. You just parrot misinformation you have "heard" from cousins and friends. This is the worst thing about the internet people commenting on [bleep] they don't even know first hand. Then when someone does come with useful information you azz hat pile on them.

I don't have time right now to prove my point, but I will if you want to go full on azz hat

Well first off, Cuz has had a 204 in an AR-15, also a 23WSSM, 22DTI, 17 REM, 223AI's, a 25WSSM and a few more I'm probably forgetting.

I lose a lot of brass so I haven't ventured beyond the standard case.

CC, please show me a post where I have never used or owned an Ackley round. Right now I've got a 223 AI in a Kimber Montana and a 22-250 AI in a Kimber Montana. I have had a 243 AI that I had 2 barrels done on.All by Dave at the bat cave. Cuz bought that one from me so it's still around. Cuz and I grew up as brothers and we've hunted together all our lives. Still do... We've leased land together for over 30 years and set up our 800 yard steel range on his place. It's not like he's a friend of a friend's cousins brother in laws sisters friend.

Here's one that will blow your mind, the first one done was done by Danny Cheatum at LazyD gunsmithing on a factory Bushmaster Varminter. He removed the barrel extension and set the barrel back. Reinstalled the barrel extension, chambered for 23AI and it's now fire forming brass for all his others by his son. He loves to blast away.

The round head spaces of the beginning of the shoulder which is 1.5532" shorter from the vanilla round of 1.1.5571" so that's why you can still shoot factory rounds through it.

I've seen and shot his AR's in 223AI too many times to believe you have a clue. Of course I've also seen you proven wrong on every other theory you've had.

Get out and try something before you say it won't work.

An AR chambered .223AI would be fun for forming rounds.

The crush fit is only .004" right? Don't think it would be even the slightest of an issue.

For the record, i have run thousands of rounds thru an AR15 chambered in the AI configuration. Not once have i had a mis-feed or failure to feed.
Did i mention this was done in competition, where timed fire for X# or rounds go down range in so many seconds. These timed fires also require a magazine change.

TSK, TSK for you Nay Sayers.

In the AR Platform the 5.56 will do all you need for coyote real world hunting and calling. Ack not worth the trouble

I'll just say I"ve seen more than a few AIs, in ARs and they have been accurate and reliable.....

I'll just say that if CC and I ever agree on something, I'll need to check my notes to see where I made the mistake...

The others are right, once again you are the clueless one, basing your whole point on an assumption - that a crush fit of any kind can't work in an AR. If you actually had the hands on experience to know what you're talking about, you'd know this is wrong.

The one I had worked just fine.

For those with experience running a 223AI from a AR magazine, what load were you running, from what barrel length, at what velocity?

If I may, if not I don't care LOL.

Cuz said with his 24" barrel, he's using 27.5 grs of TAC with a moly'd 60 gr NBT at 3280 fps. Has gone to 3360 fps but accuracy is best at his 3280 fps load.

24" barrel again, moly'd 50 gr NBT with 28.8 grs of H335 gets 3610 fps.

20" barrel, 50 gr NBT, no moly, 28.7 H335, 3500 fps

20" barrel, 50 gr NBT, no moly, 28 grs H335, 3410 fps is very accurate

CCI 41 primer.

He's here in Oklahoma with me and loads are worked up in the summer heat. Case life is good (his complaint with the 22 DTI was loose primer pockets with like velocities).

From my bolt gun experience, Lever will yield a little more...

So care to explain why a fairly well known shooter in competition has and still, as far as I know, uses neck sized ammo in all his ARs? Thats not supposed to work eitehr and as I recall a malfunction is one thing I rarely if ever saw out of his gun/ammo combo... if thats not a crush fit by your definition, CC, then its about as close as you'll get....

CC was pretty close to right but he didn't consider the crushing force of the AR bolt carriers design.

There's a good reason the cam pin operates at an angle.

And I am an A$$

Yup. That is the problem with arguing theory against actual experience.

Same reason I don't believe the chrono when it comes to best groups either... paper trumps a reading every last time.

If it works, then who cares really.

And about anyone with a bit of AR background knows the AI round works fine in ARs...
Well everyone but CC it seems....

Wonder if he would like to argue with my High Master classified friend too... LOL.

Disappointed here..

Still no azz whuppin.....

Rost: What load is your friend running in his .223AI?

No clue. Never asked him. It would be heavy bullets anyway which most don't want to use.. likely 77 and up.

Actually he may still be running custom BR flat base heavies.

The velocity and mass of the ar bolt is going to easily crush fit .004. Whether a standard or ackley round. Just try one. Although
It may not be as easy to go into battery on initial charging.
A lot of book reading doesn't mean much if there is no experience to go with .

CC-Any update on how all these people can't do what they've been doing?

Hey GSSP, I’m building a 223 AI upper to shoot the same comp because I’m not interested in a 223 bolt gun. This can, has and will be done with good results.

Can I ask what gains you hope to see using the AI version of the .223 in an AR?



Travis

The rules are that whatever round you shoot has to be based on 223/556 parent. I’m not doing a bolt gun, so the idea is to get as many FPS as possible out of a 70gr RDF from a 24” barrel. Also, I’m a tinkerer and don’t mind the slight complications involved with the AI.

I now shoot a 223 AI bolt gun in PRS matches out to 800 yds. Running the 80 ELD-Match with H4895 and CCI 450 primers, i'm getting 3000 fps. Wind and drop are much better than my beloved 6.5x47 running 140 class bullets.

Alan

I hate neck trimming.

We have shot matches in Price. I’m shooter #15. Last year was my first.

Mike

125 fps more of less in an AR. And no trimming is nice
White oak chambered both mine. 26"

Ran 80s at 2900 with 25.8 RE-15 VV540 will get another 50 fps

I get that and I'm not trying to be argumentative about it. I'm just asking what gains you hope to see.

I don't know what RDF stands for.



Travis

That's pretty impressive.



Travis

Understand. I wouldn’t be fooling with the 223 AI except for the match rules. 280 AI on the other hand is very interesting to me. RDF is a Nosler HPBT target bullet. I’d like to run heavier but will have to see where the lands end up when the barrel arrives around the 15th.

125 fps more of less in an AR. And no trimming is nice
White oak chambered both mine. 26"

Ran 80s at 2900 with 25.8 RE-15 VV540 will get another 50 fps

223 Ackley gains around 25 fps over the 223 when run at the same pressures.

those people saying I was crazy for not recommending this in an AR 15 read this link about the shortening the headspace to a .004 crush fit.

https://books.google.com/books?id=n...ng%20headspace%20on%20ackley&f=false

is using a crush fit in an AR 15 a good idea? would it cause problems with the bolt going into battery? potentially.

The reason why the headspace is set back in an ackley cartridge and which many gunsmiths don't even do correctly is because when the gun fires the cartridge grips the walls of the chamber at the most critical moment during the round firing before the brass has a chance to spring back. This causes the case to stretch at the back, which is the last possible place you want it, and can lead to case head separations. holding this tightly by shrinking headspace keeps this from happening and causes the brass to flow in the unsupported area. I suppose the work around for this would be either forming brass in another gun or buying 223 ackley brass which I don't know is available.

I suspect many people with 223 AI ar15's don't load the brass that many times or are getting away with it for some other reason. The fact is a correct ackley chamber done the right way has a .004 crush fit in head space.

notice all the dumbschits here who called me out and said how stupid I am, clueless.

I don't know what you think that proves? Are you insinuating that no gunsmiths know this and incorporate it in their builds? are you insinuating that without the "proper .004" setback in headspace will render the firearm useless? Clearly there are people running AI in AR's. I am trying really hard not to bash you, but you have brought zero to the table and zero to defend your claim. So what exactly are you saying? I am sitting here scratching my head.

I don't care you can be more interested in group forum pack mentality or you can learn something. what I am saying is YES! there are many gunsmiths who don't properly set the barrel back when they are modifying an existing chamber to ackley. I posted a link to the set back I mentioned from PO ackleys book. as to zero to the table, did you read why this crush fit is needed? go back and read what I said. the same thing applies to a fresh newly made ackley chamber, THERE MUST BE A CRUSH FIT, the headspace must be shortened to do it properly. get mad all you want say I am full of it. google ackley chamber crush fit and do your own research on the subject. the brass is gripping the sides of the chamber this causes the brass to stretch at the back instead of the front of the case, upon firing. This is why ackley shortened the headspace on his chambers when they were recut to ackley. its improper to simply run an ackley reamer into a chamber without the set back. my point was I don't think crush fit and smaller headspace is a good idea in an AR 15. I was bashed by the know it alls on here.

Good lord, you size a case to the chamber size. Pretty dang simple.

As to not loading a case a lot, I know someone that routinely loaded their AI cases a lot, and did a torture test up to 26 firings before deciding he was loosing enough cases to dump that batch...

I"ve actually seen more ICS from standard 223 cases than AI, probably because folks that do AI understand how it works, how to make and keep it working and understand its no big deal.

The 223AI is only worth about 50fps over the 223 running at the same pressure.

There's no "WSM magic" happening. You may be able to run it a little higher pressure in a gas gun because it has a straighter case, but then you could run a 223 higher with a carrier weight too.

So P.O.Ackley's the only gun smith allowed to innovate? If someone does things different than it's written in some book it's automatically wrong?

You sound like the Flat Earther who just crashed his rocket in the California Desert.

Never mind clearly you are here to argue. I asked you a simple question that you did not answer. I read your post. I got it that you just want to argue. Have fun. Clearly the AI works in AR's.

Really, I don't have a pressure gauge but I've loaded and shot a few hundred thousand 223 and 223 AI combined. With a standard 223 24.7 gr of Re-15 (or Varget) and an 80 Sierra loaded long about all you get in the case and at that point brass life suffers on some barrels. With the same combo in a 223AI I can drop 26 gr of 15 (with less compression) and get great brass life. So I'm thinking with a 5% increase in powder charge I might expect a tad more than 25fps. I will stand by my 125 fps increase, because that is my experience . With 77's you are going to need to reduce AI charges a full grain to start. And as Rost states there is another aspect to the AI and I firmly believe it reduces bolt thrust in an AR. I also think it may decrease throat erosion.

As long as there is some positive headspace in an Ackley chamber firefoming is a non issue and good 223 shoots just as well as formed cases. I think mine were set up at maybe +0.001-2. Fired many 1000 rounds FF and never lost a case I can remember. Just make sure your gunsmith know WTF he is doing. I saw another shooter fire a 200-14x at 300RF while FF 223 in his Ackley. Chambering an AI and rechambering one are two different things.Had one AR Lilja,used, and my guy set it back a turn...one of the best barrels I've had... but rechambering is a lot of set up and a good reamer to get it right

If I were to build a new longish range AR for Varmints/deer it would be a 223AI. Krieger 1/7 22' varmint I would use 77 Scenars loaded to 2.30", LC or WCC brass and ACS (Stoner) 10 round mags loaded 6-7 down for function. If I was shooting gophers, for FF, I would load 60 gr Sierra or Hornady HP with any stiff 223 load be amazed again. 8208, H4895, or AA 2015 all work well. AS do 10's of others...as would any 52-55 gr bullet you might feed it. IMO, on an AR, the 22 Nosler and 224 valkyrie are a joke for someone that handloads given brass, bolt life, and barrel quality. I would not buy any [bleep] of the shelf were it me

You have an AR chambered in 223AI?

No. Several friends have had them and they don't seem worth the bother to me.
I don't even run carrier weights for 223s.

Anyone who's pressure tested any AI will find at the same pressure they gain at best 50 fps.

Yes, plenty of people run them 150 fps faster than the parent chambering, but most of that gain in velocity is from running higher pressure.

OK: Sounds like you guys have it all figured out. Do you know anyone who has pressure tested them? I get 10+ reloads on Lapua, or WCC brass running 80s at 2900 fps.. Guess I need to do a little more research.

Oldie but good. This was just as match rifle shooters picked up on the 223AI

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

You don't ever need carrier weights if the gas port is correct for what you are doing.... if the port is to big, someone isn't thinking through what they have chambered etc... weights, to me, have always been a band aid.

The 4 to 1 rule applies. If you wanted to gain 125 fps over the 223, you'd need around 16% more case capacity. I've had several 223 AIs to go along 223s, and never have seen anywhere close to 125 fps increase.

That is exactly correct

Jeff; That is exactly correct which is why John increases the gas tube length (and properly ports) his longer barreled match riles... I picked brass at Perry from the AMU team in 2001. They had the Black Hills V8 load with 80s and VV135..Believe it was near 2900 fps in a std service rifle 20" bbl..Brass was [bleep] but shot well You can easily do this with a match rifle with a bit longer barrel set up properly and the AI makes it foolproof.

Or so I thought...You guys are missing the boat on a properly set up AR regardless of the chamber..

Who the hell pounded that sand up your a$$?

IMHO there is no reason you can't hit 60kpsi in an AR and the 5.56/223 round. And never have a worry in the world. Why they hold it back some is beyond me. But I digress.

The AI is so simple, and nets you a gain for almost nothing in cost, why not? Can give you a bit of an edge in a match and at less pressure just depending...

I have not known John to ever not have his head totally wrapped around a complete package!

Jeff

How the hell could someone post on this site for 14 years and not have heard of "The Rules"?

Cartridges aren't magic, as much as some guys want them to be.

That v8 load was way too hot. 1 shot, trashed brass.

Depends on what brass was used... I"ve seen new brass trashed by one load that probably didn't even hit 52kpsi...

Big Green uses factory primed new LC.

If thats the case, then its a pretty warm load for sure. FC brass OTOH I would have to back off more than a full grain to be safe from my LC cased loads.

Agree, several here have said it and know it but you can't change the mind of those that want to believe something else. They try to compare a high pressure AI load to a factory 223 or 5.56 load.

And the case change is what allows you to run higher pressure.

As I've said on my bolt gun, a littler Kimber Montana I had the barrel set back and AI'd, I got 3570 fps with a 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in that 22" barrel. Primers are not even close to flat, no tight bolt handles and primer pockets are tight after several loadings. Pressure equals velocity but you have to be able to handle that pressure and the improved case is magic in that regard.

On the other hand I've seen 2 grains of powder make more than 50 fps difference by itself.

It doesn't work that way. Changing the shoulder shape and straightening the body does not allow you to run higher pressure. You could've run that same pressure in a standard 223 case as well.

I'm guessing most 223 AI reamers cut a longer throat though, more like 223 Wylde? That accounts for a lot more potential velocity difference than the minimal change in case capacity. Similar to comparing 223 Rem and 5.56 loads.

Show me I'm wrong don't guess. Load up 3570 in a standard 223 and 22" barrel to see how many reloads you get.

A few notes now that I have a minute, it has to do with less bolt thrust on the straighter case and all my bullets are seated in the lands.

The gains are real.

I believe the gains are real, just not your explanation of the reason behind it. Case shape does not change the bolt thrust; that's made up by people who don't understand how pressure works. If the case body sticking to the chamber walls really reduced bolt thrust, you'd have a much higher chance of case head separations with an AI chamber. It doesn't work that way.

Like I said, the difference in the throat does a lot more to account for any significant gains.

I've got a several standard .223's and .223 AI's. I'll grab a .223AI nearly every time for its 100-150 + velocity difference. I frankly don't care where the extra velocity comes from; vudoo, physics, magic, pressure, whatever. Maybe its just that the 223 AI accuracy nodes always seem to be near or at max pressure, while my Standard .223's seem to shoot better a step down from max. As an example, I have a .223AI with 24" barrel that hammers 75g Amax's at 2950. Compare that to my Standard .223 McMillan Sporter with 24" barrel that won't shoot a 75g Amax or Berger accurately past 2750 and really tightens up at 2650 fps. Anecdotal for sure, but its my reality.

To each his own.