Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors 7x57 Pre 64 questions

According to Rule's Book Winchester dropped production of these in 1949, however I have found one with a 1952 serial number... This been said, it is mint by appearances, however I do not want to buy one that is not accurate to authenticity.

Any suggestions?

No "expert" here, but it would depend on price. While it might be possible it's legit, there's no way to authenticate it (factory letter). If it's priced close to standard chamberings I'd buy it, at top dollar I'd be suspect and pass. JMO, take it for what it's worth.

Definitely the Pre 64's are the most "falsified" rifles in the market place. Lots of parts from different years have found places on actions of other years to create a more valuable "rarity".
Agree with the above, if you can't authenticate the build, it is probably a fake, a spare parts gun, or a rebuild with a newly barreled action duplicating the original 7 x 57. I've actually seen a couple of these as they are close to the rarest of the cartridges in the Pre 64's. The ones I've seen you would have a hard time telling them from originals.

Bob

You better check Rules book again. The "date's of actual manufacture" was from 1936-1954.... Just sayin... Gotta read the fine print sometimes...

I was at a gunshow in Idaho falls couple yrs back a guy had a table full of pre 64's I'm know expert but I picked up things here they had a couple of them that had the wrong stocks i.e. Machine checkered stocks on pre 64 made in the early 1950's. I have the Winchester SN PDF saved to my phone.

In the world of rare caliber Model 70's fakes abound, back in the late 1970's there were a couple of east coast dealers known for "creating" rare caliber M/70's. One is no longer in business and the other's reputation is pretty well known.

My Rifleman's Rifle has been on loan out for a few months. The 7x57 had a few items with their own part numbers that really didn't make sense to me at least. The believe it had it's own magazine spring. That would be a quick check. If it isn't marked it ought to be easily enough compared with a standard 30-06 length spring.

CrankEmUp: The pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters were offered in caliber 7x57 through the year 1954.
The Rifle you are interested in could certainly be an all original Rifle.
Use caution.
Do we have time for a quick pre-64 Model 70 7x57 story - I say we do.
About 1985 my good friend and fellow Model 70 enthusiast Maury were returning to his home in Bellevue, Washington after doing the local (but large!) gunshow that Saturday.
By coincidence his wife was also pulling in to their driveway after a days "garage sale-ing".
We had a tough day trying to find a deal on Winchesters that day but his wife had found a Winchester pre-64 Model 70 Carbine in 7x57 at the first sale she attended!
And she bought it for a song!
At first I thought my friend Maury and his wife Monty were playing an elaborate joke on me (nearly inducing a heart attack by the way!) but no they being devout Christians swore to me that her find was indeed authentic happenstance!
I fondeled that 95%+ Rifle on that day and on many subsequent days!
It was just cool to the maximum.
Sometimes you got to be in the right place at the right time.
Good luck CrankEmUp with the authentication and dealing on that rare Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

This is all great information. Thanks guys!!

I remember reading in one of Jack O'Connor's books that in about 1955 or 1956 someone at Winchester called him and asked if he wanted a rifle made up using their last 7X57 barrel and of course he did. I think it may have became Elanor's rifle. On another note, I remember reading that famous gunsmith Jerry Fisher converted his 7X57 to the new 7MM Rem. Mag. when that cartridge came out. He regretted it.

Think it was Jack calling Winchester to see if they had a 7x57 on hand. Winchester replied they had one 7mm barrel on hand and would make him one.

I think you're right Sir.

It happens every once-in-a-while.

I seem to recall the Shah of Iran son (Prince Palavi Sp) got the last pre-64 model 70 in 7X57 from Winchester. Jack wrote this in his "Petersons Hunting" article on the 7X57.

Doc

Could be that Jack gave the 7x57 to him as a gift.

What I remember about the 7x57 was Jack had Al Besien work on it. Jack was in a auto accident and wrote that when Al brought the rifle to his hospital room,that was when he (Jack) started his recovery.

It would probably be cheaper to find a Winchester M54 in 7X57MM than a M70, but it wouldnt be any easier to find.....

Be cheaper to buy a early 80's Winchester M 70 7x57.

He was also fond of Weatherbys.... but with all that frickn wealth why not by pass them both
and go to Holland & Holland or something else that makes one look like their schit don't stink..

Can you buy it with the three day return guarantee then ass haul it to a reputable appraiser?

you can have a rifle built exactly how you want it with nice wood for a lot less than a M70 7MM will run. I have a M70 in 7X57 and had a custom rifle built (275 Rigby) for just a little more than half of the cost of the M70.

Tease!

yeah I know but that Rigby is just a sweet rifle. That and the custom Ruger #1 7-08 are my favorites.

Another little tease there are actually 3 M70's in 7MM and 2 are carbines:) Great rifle for hunting in a blind.

Good God!

This thread would be 1000% better with lots of photos.......

there are 3 nib model 70's 7x57 lightweight supergrades for sale on gunbroker right now!

The new ones hold no appeal for me.

Was in an elk camp when Chick Donnelly was still alive... he had a friend who attended who was close to 80 at the time...

He was hunting with a Model 70 that was originally barreled 7 x 57, and it still had that imprinted on the barrel...

but he had it bored out to 280 Remington when that cartridge was launched....

he was ribbed every year of how much value the rifle lost due to that bright idea....

I certainly could dig a Model 54 factory chambered in 7 mm Mauser...in pristine condition...

Here's the article that mentions it, if you're interested.

http://gundigest.com/classic-guns/forty-years-little-7mm

An FN Supreme in 7X57MM would be cool also. Once again less expensive and easier to find.

Thanks Mike....my memory was accurate.

Doc

Another good article for the "folder". Thanks Rev..

Happy to help. I have a three ring binder with loose 7x57 articles and loading data. I like the old cartridge.

Agreed! I'd keep buying those until the bank called.

A CZ 7x57 would be another great buy.

This is a 7X5AI built on a Sako action. It loves 160's. I used it in Africa as a light rifle and ended up taking a cull Giraffe with it. The poor animal had been caught in a poachers snare and it's hind leg was badly cut and infected just above the hoof. You could actually see the maggots in the wound. The village got the meat instead of the Hyenas or Lions.

Yeah, the 7x57 and 6.5x55 used to both be catalog items. Stupid me.......

While not a pre-64 M70, they're a great value, and I'd like to own one......or a few.

If you cant find an older one that u like,I have a NIB liteweight Supergrade 7x57 for sale. Very pretty. 931 808 6424.

I have both a Pre 64 Model 70 7mm in the 20" carbine and a Model 54 in the normal 24" late model rifle. Some thoughts re your question. First to echo the sentiment that the rarer 'Pre's' are too often highly "non-authentic nowadays. That doesn't equate directly to forgery. Over decades, innocent parts swaps and the like probably have more of these rifles non-original than intentional fraudulent actions. But the result in acquiring one such can be just the same. Moving into the really rare versions, regarding forgeries, the question becoming whether the effort justifies the illicit reward. There are certainly some artisans who can produce such. Short of scientific analysis, one can sometimes not be sure. Yet, for most, decent knowledge to be found in such as Roger Rules seminal book, a great roadmap. That source often to undo the 'slap-dash' counterfeiter.
Respecting the Prewar Model 70, the front sight was forged integral with the barrel. Through all factory original production extending postwar, those early barrels were utilized. While possible for a 'non-production one-off item or such, possibly other rules. BUT for any of those principally prewar chamberings not regularly cataloged postwar, they will be found with the left over prewar barrels. So rule one, if not an forged integral barrel, consider it a fake. Then too, have a look at the actual nomenclature, particualarly chambering stamp. Compare to the photos in the Rule book.
Early 70 stocks were of a prewar pattern in the tang area. Expect to find commensurate era stocks. If not, likely a mixed era action/barrel/stock.
And re mix and match, a lot of that common and much formerly, innocent. Several decades ago, I purchased a well worn 257 Roberts prewar carbine cheap. The receiver was swiss cheesed with sight mount holes. Had a gunsmith mate the barrel to a decently used prewar action/stock then in 30-06. Swapped over all components from the carbine. Kiss of a chambering reamer and presto, a decent vintage looking carbine. No one to this day to tell it wasn't factory. My intent not any kind of fraud. After a few years, traded it for a pittance. Wish I hadn't!
The point, know what you're buying. If you just walk into a 'deal' without research time. Just do so understanding you're at a disadvantage. Absent a garage sale, that seller presumably with all time necessary to know what he's selling.
In the ordinary plain Jane 270 or 30-06, not too much worry beyond what with reasonable knowledge you can see. When playing against advanced collectors/dealers, stick with reputable. I learned a lot from Winchester men at gunshows with tables full. Just picking their brain.
Well, Winchester 100A lecture finished. Approach that 7mm with considerable caution. Good luck and...
My take

Because we're discussing historical facts, HIH Prince Abdorreza Pahlavi was Shah Reza Pahlavi's brother. A Weatherby award winner and one of the world's great sheep hunters.