Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Why aren't there better semi's for big game?

PA may be on on the verge of legalizing semi auto rifles for deer this year. I've been considering what I might get for deer season. I know that the Remington 742/750 series is junk and the Browning BAR is a bit too heavy and pricy for me. The Winchester 100 and the Ruger Deerfield .44 carbine seem about right but they're old and scarce. I like AR's but they aren't my idea of a deer rifle. I just wonder why there aren't better options for the big game hunter?

The Remington 750 series is supposed to be an improvement over the 7400 series. What kind of problems are you reading they have?

not enough interest.

MM,

I think you answered the question.

They cost more, are heavier and have feed/function issues that you don't see in single shots or bolt guns.

Rest assured if enough people bought them they would make them...........

AR and rock on

When you mention semi-auto rifles some things come to mind.

Heavy
Unreliable
Inaccurate
Expensive
Ugly, compared to traditional rifles
Odd ergonomics, again, not traditional
Lousy triggers

Some of these issues are fact, some perception, but all semi rifles are burdened with some of them. The Ar rifles are among the best but,

Ugly
Heavy, can be light but in reality usually 8# +
Looks and ergo, odd for traditionalist
Trigger, can be made decent

Same ones they've always had. At least that's what guys are saying on here.

Benelli R1.

Reasonable weight, 1.5MOA accuracy, the two I own have been flawless - literally 2,000 plus rounds fired between them w/o a malfunction. They can be completely dissassembled for a through cleaning, critical function parts are easily user serviced. Have found both of my two rifle's triggers perfectly acceptable. Looks are meh, but so what...

David

This sums it up perfectly!

I'd agree and add that for most big game hunting, a faster second shot than you can get with a lever or bolt action is just not something most people need.

Agreed. But I just like semi-auto's. I've also been considering the Remington 81.

Browning or Benelli

Why so picky?

It's odd to me, because even though I read comments about how people assume that a BAR, for example, is heavy, the reality is that the current BAR Mark III weighs the same as a Model 70 Featherweight. Well, okay, it weighs a whopping 2 oz more. The BAR Safari (scroll-engraved steel receiver) is 6 oz _lighter_ than a Super Grade 70. I assume that's from the 2" longer bbl on the 70.

So, in other words, a modern auto-loader is _not_ heavier than a bolt gun, but apparently people still _think_ they are(?). I only own 1 BAR, so it's hard to state empirically how reliability compares. What I know is that sometimes a bolt gun balks on me when chambering a cartridge. Not an outright jam, normally, but sometimes a bit of a balk. The only time my BAR has had any functional issue is when I was adjusting (closing) the gas port to precisely match my long-range handloads.

NOTE: All comparisons here are using the 30-06 chambering

Browning BAR's really don't have reliability issues and the new BAR III Stalker in .243,7-08 or .308 weigh 6 pounds 10 oz.
Remington destroyed the market for semi auto hunting rifles.

i wonder how many people have actually
used a semi auto hunting rifle extensively
and have had a slew of problems, and how
many just read it somewhere and pass it on
down the line ?

You might consider a Springfield Armory M1A Squad Scout or their SOCOM 16.
They are lighter than advertised. Mine, a Squad Scout with a synthetic stock w/o the steel trap butt plate runs 7.8 lbs. w/o the scope. With a Leupold 1.5-4X Scout Scope, it runs 8 3/4's lbs.
The triggers are far better than any AR I've ever tried. After a trigger job, their second stage break is very close to my bolt guns.
On top of all that, they come with a muzzle break that allows you to stay on target nicely for follow up shots.
Mine shoots 4 rds. into 1.5 MOA consistantly with about 5 different hunting loads.
Their reliability is considered better than any of the AR .308's. E

The 750 is no longer in production. Hasn't been on Remington's website for a couple of years.

Short answer, a bolt rifle does everything better with rifles larger than 223. Even the best semi is going to weigh about 2 lbs more than is possible to make a bolt gun and will simply NEVER be as reliable or accurate over a wide range of loads. Semi's can be reasonably reliable if the ammo is made within a narrow range of pressure and bullet weights. And accuracy can be acceptable, but will never approach a bolt gun.

The only alleged advantage is faster repeat shots. This is a positive in the military who need to provide covering fire, but not in a hunting rifle. Yes, you can empty the magazine on a semi faster than you can with a bolt gun, but for someone willing to learn how to run a bolt rifle you are talking about a fraction of a second difference for 3 rounds.

And if you start requiring those shots actually hit something there is no difference in rate of fire with rounds larger than 223. It takes longer to recover from recoil on a 30-06 class cartridge and get the sights re aligned on target than it takes to cycle a bolt gun. On AR's and other low recoiling rifles you can get back on target somewhat faster.

PA hasn't missed a thing on big game hunting. While semi-autos have been legal every where else virtually no one uses them.

The Belgium BARs handled very well. Had 2. One misfired in cold weather. Could have been my fault, but still lost confidence in it after that.

I have had many BARs come through my shop for scoping and fitting pads, but very few problems with function. They are quite good. Not "sniper accurate" but clearly accurate enough for big game hunting. We are all familiar with the love GIs had for M-1 Garands and m-14s and I have to point out that the BAR sporting rifles out-shoot nearly all M-1s adn M-14s in accuracy. Some of the match grade and sniper versions of the GI rifles will shoot better than a BAR, but only a little bit.

I own a Benelli R-1 in 270 short mag. It's finicky about ammo, but with my best hand loads using 160 gr Nosler Partitions it shoot just slightly over MOA. I have killed antelope, deer and elk with it. Most shots were 250 yards and out to 400 and it's not even a problem to make kills with.

If you are dead set against using something that "looks military" you would not be interested in any of the AR style rifles in 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 30 Rem-Ar 260 7-08 or 308. But before I leave those out, I would like to point out the accuracy they they are capable of. Sub MOA is so common with good ones that it's boring and if you buy a good AR I doubt you will ever have any function problems.

They are ugly, but for most white-tail hunting in most places in the USA, an AK-47 is a great tool. If you get one with a good barrel and you use good ammo they will shoot 2.5MOA out to about 300 yards. If we are honest with ourselves, we have to admit that 2.5MOA is just fine in most cases, and we also need to admit that most of the shots made for white tails are under 300 years. 2.5 MOA is all that many M-94 Winchesters did, and they brought back so many deer to freezers that we can't count them. AKs are SUPER reliable.

Remington 740-742-7400 and so on have always been fairly cheaply made (not reflected in the price however)
Even the Remington service center will admit to you if you push them that the engineers at Remington made then to last "at least 500 rounds" Not 5000. 500.
To me, that's not very impressive. I know men that own some that have been trouble free, but I know of not one man that has shot over 1000 from one without failures. There may be some out there, but I can be pretty sure they are rare.

For now, if you want to buy an accurate reliable non-military sporting auto I think Browning is the only one I would consider. R-1 Benelli would be good too, but I understand they are not being made anymore. They are also weird looking but not military looking.

I have a BAR MK II and 2 of my hunting buddies have as well. Reliability is exactly 100%, so not sure how a bolt gun is going to be more reliable. Accuracy with all the BARs I have first hand experience with is uniformly excellent. Mine prints well under MOA and one of my buddies BAR shoot little bitty one hole cloverleafs all day long. By the way, I also had a BOSS equipped BAR, which I replaced with an non-BOSS. It was equally accurate and reliable.

The standard BAR is no heavier than a standard bolt gun and to me, easier to carry with the flat receiver. Truth is, I have only once in 19 years with the BAR needed a second shot. It is unquestionably faster than any bolt gun. Reduced recoil and there is another round already waiting for you.

I can't imagine anybody who has actually hunted with a BAR having any real fact based objection. I do own a number of excellent bolt rifles too and hunt with them as well, but the BAR will always be one of my favorites.

Eat your Wheaties and get a Garand. Lol

Seriously though, the BAR is the way to go, they are not that heavy. I recall they used to make a lightweight. They are also dead nutz reliable.

I'm sorry, but that is not necessarily so. I can say that because I've been running bolt action rifles on big game since 1967. Remingtons, Rugers, Winchesters, etc. Never have I been able to match the speed of a second shot that I can with my current M1A. Maybe others can, but not me.
Others may not need a fast second shot, but I do.
Weight ? Having done alot of mountain and rough country hunting on foot, I do appreciate a light rifle. But the most accurate rifle I've ever shot from various field positions was a 10.5 lb., 26 inch barreled Remington 700, VSFS.
Accuracy ? Maybe others can shoot groups that are smaller consistantly from field positioins like standing and sitting with their sub MOA rifles, but I can't. Any load under 2 MOA, and the results are too close to mean anything.
No, I haven't sold my bolt action, big game rifles. But my current M1A Squad Scout allows me to shoot better under the conditions where I prefer to hunt than they do. E

I grew up with one. It was a Remington 742. I never worked as a semi the entire time
I had it. But it was the only rifle my family had. I used it every day I hunted from the time I was 12 until my 18th birthday. That day I went to Superior Shooters Supply and bought a Ruger MKII, 30-06.

The next year I bought a Remington 7400 from the same store. I shot less than 2 magazines sighting it in and it broke the gas block.

Buy an old. 760 Remington. Their accurate, and last forever.

What do you typically hunt, and what are typical ranges?

I've read comments fom at least two gunsmiths stating that they did a good bit of business "fixing" Remington autos (and pumps) for guys who simply didn't care for them properly. Lots of ordinary deer hunters just wipe 'em down and put 'em away for next year. Sooner or later, that's gonna bite you in the azz.

I suspect that those who shell out the bucks for Brownings and expensive euro-autos take better care of their toys.

The steel receiver Brownings are handsome rifles, if a bit heavy. I doubt I'll ever buy one, but not because they're not good rifles. The alloy models are probably just as "good", but not to my taste.

Autos are necessarily going to be more complicated than other types. I don't understand why the OP thinks "better options" can be produced at a lower cost than what's out there. Good stuff is expensive.

Deer and Black Bear at woods ranges.

The FNAR in 308 is a sub moa rifle
But it is heavy

AKA - lack of demand.



Jerry

The 6.5 Grendel, in a lightweight, purpose built hunting AR would be something to seriously look into.

The modern 6.5 projectiles, at Grendel velocities would do quite well.

Yes, a 6.5 Grendel would. So would a 6.6 SPC. Some would even argue the 7.63X39.
If an AR won't do, you can have Accuracy System convert a Ruger Mini 30 either round. I've given serious thought to one myself. E

My FNAR is 8lbs and 37" long. It's very accurate but I only use it in the thick stuff for hogs. I feel better with 10 rounds of 308 when in close quarters with hogs. I know it's ugly but it's functional and compact and I've never had a FTF.

A stock mini 30 would do. The one I had would group about 2" at 100 and was very reliable.

Try an AR.

Something that says Springfield or FN on it?

Maybe a BAR?

Ever heard of Benelli?

Do you really need a rifle cartridge? Because.... Beretta makes some pretty good semi-auto carbines. So did Ruger at some point.




Dave

But it's not a "semi"

My uncle and his wife only used the Browning BAR for years. They loved them. He used a 338WM and she a 270 win. They never had any problems with function or accuracy.

Ar in 6.5 Grendel or 6.8Spc. Both are very quick handling and plenty accurate at any woods range.

This. Use cheap ammo for plinking and use good ammo for hunting.

M-14/ M1a???

Probably run into legality issues in too many places for them to be widely marketed towards the hunting crowd...

I've been shooting a Browning BAR (308 and 30-06) in New York State for over 30 years and never had a malfunction or FTF. Accuracy varies from 1"-1 1/2", the deer never knew he was shot with a semi automatic!

Military styled autos are quite common for hunting in many if not most states. Penn is one of the few that still have lib-tards and bureaucrats who run on emotion instead of logic running their game department I am guessing.

The most common type of rifle used in the USA today is the bolt action.

120 years ago they too were "not for sporting use".
Only ______________ << (Fill in the blank with your choice
A. a muzzleloader
B. a lever action
C. a single shot breach-loader
D. make one up from the last 75 years before 1890

>> were suitable for hunting deer.
It's just a fact. Emotions dictate that is is so...............Right?

But.....will PA ever pull it's head out of said ass and allow Sunday hunting

Been thinking about a Benelli Argo in 9.3x62. Not pretty but it is pretty cool.

Well the Governor cleared the way for semi auto's to be legal for hunting. At the April meetings our Game Commission will decide to what degree they will be allowed. We're expecting to get them for small game and predators but big game is still up in the air. There is a big push back against it and it's not from liberals but from conservative, traditional hunters. The Governor is a liberal and he's the one who legalized them. The Elmer Fudd elements are certain it will lead to wounded/crippled deer,shot hunters,and homes with bullets ripping through them.

I have been using Belgium made BARs since about 1970-71. I have had every caliber printed in Belgium. The only one I ever had that would not shoot some factory load under 1 1/2" was a Gd I 7mm mag. The best for accuracy was a .270 that was an honest 1/2" shooter with 130 CoreLokt.

I never had one that did not feed and fire. I basically sold all them when I started hand loading. They sometimes dented brass and all semis scatter brass about in the grass and weeds. Then I bought a pair of .30-06 and had one bored out to .338-06. That one had a tight chamber and it needed the full bolt drop to make sure the rounds were chambered when charging the barrel from the magazine. A slight push on the operating handle solved that. No problem when fired and picking up a round to reload.

I still have an '06 made in 1970 in a beautiful hand engraved GdIII wearing about grade IV or V wood.

The all steed guns are a little heavy, and the magnums are heavy. At 79 YO, I don't walk far anymore, but rather hunt from some form of ambush, be it a box blind, ground blind, a brush hide, or just park my Mule and watch a trail, food plot or water. They make some alloy framed guns that get under 7 #. Since the bolt locks into the barrel, this is no sacrifice in strength. No problem.

The only parts that I ever replaced on a BAR were a couple of recoil buffers which appear to be made of nylon. Cousin's kid failed to clean his for a few years and I decided that a new gas piston was in order from pitting. It did still work. The triggers can be smoothed by using thin strips of 800-1000 grit paper between the trigger and sear.

I got my first one as the result of total dissatisfaction with a 742. I like the quick repeat shot capability. I once went five for five with the .338.06 before the rest of a herd of South Texas pigs could flee my food plot. Next day the coyote hunting got good.

I have not used but see good comments on another forum about the Benelli.

BTW, the only interest that I have in Browning is my BAR, my Pigeon Grade 20 ga Superposed, a pair of wasp waist .22s, and my A-5. Add: I for got the three Safari bolt guns. They have made some good stuff.

Best wishes,

Jack

Sauer 303 if you can get a hold of one and stomach the price tag. I have one and it's bolt action accurate.

Because I believe most riflemen [Hunters] try their best to make the first shot count, spraying and praying with a semi auto is a slobs creed, and thats all I've ever saw over in Arkansas with hunters in front of, beside, or behind deer dogs.

I've seen truckloads of deer killed with 742s. When I was young it was the gold standard of deer rifles around here. I know there are issues with them but most work.

One should never assume that people who shoot semi autos "spray and pray", especially if you don't know the person!

Yup.

The real advantage of a semi, for whitetail hunters anyway, is the ability to take a second shot without any additional movement or noise. Deer often don't run off at the sound of a shot, but the noise and movement from working a bolt or lever will put them on the scoot. Back in the days when I used to miss (!) occasionally (okay, often), that could have made a big difference. I remember two occasions when I missed bucks with my TC Hawken during the Maryland shotgun season and they stayed put almost long enough for me to reload because they didn't see or smell me.

I killed one like that with my BAR a few years ago. I missed high and he just stood there and I let him have it with the second shot. That was the only time in 30 years I ever benefited from the semi auto action as all the rest I can remember were either a one shot kill or the two or three I've missed hauled ass before I could get on them for another shot.

I've enjoyed my BAR. It has been totally reliable, not one malfunction with either reloads or factory ammo and it shoots better than I can. I do take the forend off and clean out the gas piston annually. One quirk of the rifle is that it is critical that when chambering a round that you either let the bolt slam home or if you let it down slowly that you give it a little forward push to make sure the bolt is engaged all the way because if it is not it won't fire. I learned that when my rifle was new while shooting it at targets, and it is explained in the manual, but I could see it costing a guy a shot if he was not aware.

I like many different types of guns, and I support any kind of shooting that burns powder or compresses air.
But my 1st love is muzzleloaders and has been since I was a young teen. I love hunting with my flintlocks. I have had a great deal of success with them too.
However I have been blessed to be an avid hunter now for 52 of my 60 years on this earth. I have been blessed to have opportunities to hunt in many different states and a few other countries. Most years I am fortunate enough to kill between 4-6 head of game, but some years I have killed as many as 25 per year.
I have personally killed at least 65 head of game with semi-autos. These are the ones I recall off the top of my head as I write this.
These are:
AR15 in 6.8SPC 33
AR-15 in 6.5 Grendal. 3
AK47 7
FAL 4
M-1 Garand. 6
Smith M-14 6
Benelli R1 6
On elk I shot 2 times. One antelope I shot 2 times.
ALL the others were one shot kills

I love my flintlocks, but I can assure you that I can fire my autos as slow as I do my flintlock when I choose to.
The idea that a certain kind of weapon in the hands of a man means he has a certain way of using that weapon is stupid.
And I will point out----it’s the manipulative tool used by anti-gun people everywhere. It’s a stupid idea and it only works against stupid people.
Please readers, don’t fall for that crap and don’t help the anti-gunners gain ground.
Owning a handgun doesn’t make you want to kill politicians.
Owning an AK doesn’t make you want to shoot up a post office
Owning an AR doesn’t make you want to shoot up a school and owning any of the above doesn’t mean you are a slob hunter or a poor marksman.

Is so too, actually faster.

I've got a 30-06 BAR and I want to change it to 6br. Trying to find a smith to do it at the moment. Kinda bummed nobody makes a 20 moa rail for it but the Vortex 5-20x50 kinda deserves it. Thinking I can use a Caldwell brass catcher from an AR but I might fashion something else as those Caldwell's look stupid.

I have owned a browning bar 270 for 30 years now killed at least 25 or so deer with it never jammed or left me stranded in the woods or at the range, I might add never lost a deer with it either..

I've had 742s, 7400s, a BAR, and many AR15s. The AR15 is hands down my preference. It's easy to build them light, dependability is well proven, accuracy is well proven, great triggers abound, and it's easy to customize it to exactly what you want or need. I actually feel like I shoot my ARs better in the field than my bolts when speaking of similar weight guns and odd field positions.

The 6.8SPCII will easily handle the game you speak of. I killed a 265lb and 238lb deer with the 6.8 and 120SSTs at the end of Dec. The larger deer ran maybe 50yds with a hit through the lungs and the other buck fell at impact. Very effective cartridge in an ultra dependable platform. The trajectory is dead nuts with my 308 bolt FWIW.

I bought my wife a Benelli 30-06 this year. She wanted a semi Auto. I bought a closeout VX3 and mounted it. Bought a box of Rem core lokt 165 gn and took it to sight in.After 4 shots and some scope adjustments it put 5 shots in a group that could be covered with a quarter an inch high at a hundred yds.. Recoil is about like my bolt action 243 that has no pad. I was surprised and pleased. The trigger is not bad either. I took it home and took it all apart using the manual. It is really well though out and simple. It requires no tools to take it apart. It carries well and feels handy. It looks odd. But It looks to be a good rifle.

So if I throw rocks or use a 3" folding knife can I hunt on Sunday in PA?

They already make great semis for big-game hunting.

They are built on the AR-10 platform.

Bought a brand new 742 .30/06 in 1984 when I turned 18. Best accuracy was about 2.5" at 100yds. with 150g Silvertips. For 6 years it was a deer slayer. Year seven the gas port plugged and it started stove piping the ejected cases. This cost me a deer. I missed the first shot and he stopped running and just stood there. Me having to work the action to clear the jam ran him off. Got that fixed and all was good rest of season. Year eight the extractor lost is springiness and the rifle would not always chamber completely. More often than not the cartridge head was sitting on the extractor and not the bolt face. You had to pull the plastic bolt cover back to see if it had chambered completely. It would go far enough into battery that the firing pin would fall when you pulled the trigger making a loud click as the pin failed to contact the primer. This also cost me a deer. Year nine, well I don't know. I got it fixed and swapped it for a 336 in .35 Rem. I also bought my first bolt gun that same year. I did have a Ruger .44 carbine for a while later but sold it too. Now the only semi-auto's I own are AR's.

I have a brother-in-law that owns 2 large tracts of land in SD. When they have land owner tags to remove the over populated critters, they use one of two rifle choices.

The first being an AR15 in 6.5 Grendel (the kids rifle).

http://gundigest.com/more/gundigest-tv/alexander-arms-6-5-grendel-hunter-review

And the second is the Benelli R1 in a .270 WSM (for the adults)

http://www.benelliusa.com/rifles

They work great in his desired application. Good luck to you in your search.

As for the Rem 742. I have one in .30-06. I bought it for $150 last year.

Never used it for hunting. But's it's accurate, and I've not have any malfunctions with it of any type... Yet.

There's a thread in the Hunter's Campfire forum about a Ruger Survey. In that survey, Ruger asks what products one would like to see produced. One of the options is a semi-auto standard hunting caliber rifle. So you and others interested can let Ruger know what you want to see produced moosemike.

Link to Survey: Ruger Survey

The new Small Frame ARs can make great hunting rifles.

.308 Win G2.



6.5 Creedmoor G2.

I've seen plenty of this in PA without the semi-auto's. It's slowed down some since the antler restrictions were put in place though.

Hearing 4, 6, up to must be 20 shots going off in rapid succession sure makes my experiences negative!

I spray and pray a lot.

But it has nothing to do with rifles.




Dave

Was that intentional high shot placement ?

Very Nice Bull.

Jerry

No he hit him higher than ideal.

We shot from the bluffs so the placement would be a bit higher than if on the same level but that was bit high.

Broke the spine but the bull need a second shot.

Harry's first bull.

Thanks. Done.

John,

What's the weight on the Creed?

9 3/4 lbs with the VX-6.

I hunt with my Garand. Ain't that heavy. Is everyone weak? GI's carried them for miles, per day.