Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders 50 cal. for elk

Anyone use a traditional M/L and a round ball in 50 cal .for elk? Just asking--Thanks

Back when I black powder hunted, we used T/C Hawkins with T/C Maxi-Balls or Maxi-Hunters.

Round balls are only about 180grains. Years ago,I looked into it briefly. Maybe in a 58 cal or larger, but I figured that the 370 gr maxi-balls would get more penetration and thought the 180 gr pure lead ball might flatten out too much, too quick. However, I have always been a heavy for caliber type person

My friend Randy has killed 8 elk with 8 balls from his TC Hawken 50 cal. The trick is to use hard balls. Not pure lead, but wheel weigh metal.
He had an exit on every single one of them.
Me, I have killed 1 with a 54, one with a 58 and all the rest were killed with my 62 cal.
All were shot with balls cast of WW metal and I have never recovered a ball from a deer or elk or the 1 moose I killed with a muzzleloader.
I have recovered 58 cal balls and bullets cast from pure lead from one deer as well as a few cattel.

Never thought of using harder lead. Most I know use pure lead. After putting on the third barrel of my TC Hawkin, TC warned me against it,but all I ever used was pure lead.

I think Speer is harder than Hornaday. The wives tale around here is to use hornaday for expansion to put the energy in the deer before it exits. We have small whitetails around here, so pass through is really not an issue. Elk is a different equation, and I have no experience in that area.

I would use a 54 with ball because I have that choice. The 54 has 25% more wight to drive through. Of course if you have the right barrel, and it is legal, I would be using a conical/sabot/maxi. PA at one time was ball only. DRT went up when guys started using maxi's. Back in the day, guys loaded a maxi/conical for the first shot and carried ball for the wardens. Point being, because the pressure is low in BP, speed is hard to get. Terminal energy really goes up with projectile weight.

I had an old GRRW 1/2 stock Leman Flinter. 50 calibre. Ron Paull had built it for his wife, i believe. Had too short LOP for me. I traded it for something. She took several elk with it so i was told. .50 RB's.

Ran across it (rifle) about a year or so ago. Forgot another old friend had ended up with it!

I've taken 8-9 Elk with a ML.

Two or three were with .54 cal and a 600 grain Maxi-ball using 120 grains of Triple 7 when it was the newest choice of power on the market.. The rest were with a 50 cal. using a sabot with a Hornady 250 grain 45 cal XTP hollow point and 150 grains of Triple 7.

Almost every single one of them dropped in their tracks. Never had one go more than 30 yards.

Shot placement is key. Longest shot was 137 yards. Most of them were taken at less than 50 yards. The only complete pass through's were with the 54 cal and Maxi-balls. The XTP would expand to approximately .75". All but one were taken with inline rifles. One was with a Hawken.

I did try round balls, never did harvest an Elk with them. Not because they wouldn't do the job, I just did not see any Elk to shoot at. I'm sure that if you have the right opportunity, a .50 cal round ball would work.

Good luck with your choices.

Saddlesore, TC did only recommenced pure lead, but not because it would "wear out" a barrel. It was because their barrels were rifled only .003" deep and hard lead would cut patches because they had to be thin. So many people complained that the hard balls would not shoot well. Hence the recommendation.

For years Green Mountain made drop-in conversions barrels for the TC rifles for that exact reason. But no more unfortunately.

What Randy did was to put a lubed patch on top of the powder as a wad. His gun just had the standard TC barrel, but he got excellent accuracy with hard balls and 95 Gr of 3F. The wad cushioned the patched ball in front of it, well enough that he good good accuracy. It's a trick I have also used at times with deep rifled barrels and it really does make the guns a bit more accurate if you run large charges. Not every gun, but a lot of them.

The barrels I use on my round ball rifles have grooves cut from .009 to .0012 deep so you can use thick patching. It makes for much easier loading with hard balls because a patch of .016 to .019 is a LOT easier to compress then a patch only .006 to .008.
There is just more cloth to use, so it gives a better cushion and a thicker "gasket".
In my experience with making muzzleloaders, if you have a clean barrel of any quality, and you are not getting good accuracy, 19 time in 20 the problem is the patch,and/or lube, not the gun.

I don't know if it is valid, but I recall reading a minimum magical energy number for game. I think deer is 800fpe, and elk might be 1000 or 1200. Anyway, heavier projectiles have and hold more energy out of a ML. It might be BS, but I respect the 800 number as a goal for deer. I really dont like recoil, but I try to keep the energy up that area.
I know guys kill moose with 22s, but I like to have more than a minimum for any game. I think 50 ball is OK, but more is probably not overkill.

Minimum "foot pounds of energy" is really not valid. You see, a 223 has almost the same FPE at 100 yards (925) as a 45-70 does (1000)
But the old black powder 45-70 is the single most successful round in US history for killing buffalo followed by the 44-77 sharps. Most hits on buffalo with 430 to 500 grain bullets would exit the other side, and when they didn't they were found on the off-side skin.

I don't think many men here would place much money of the likelihood of a standard 22-250 doing that.


But with that said, I do agree that for elk, a 50 cal is probably minimum if you shoot balls.

Not because of any mathematical theory. But because I have seen it done, and have killed elk myself, and I have been into muzzleloaders now for most of my life. At 60 years old and having started to hunt with muzzleloaders when i was 13, I have some background in the subject.

If we were talking about hand made barrels in the old "weird" calibers maybe a 48 or a 49 would be just as good. But today the jump is made from 45 to 50 cal, and that's a pretty large jump. The 45 fores balls of about 125 grains to 128 grains depending on allow and exact diameter. The 50 fores balls of about 177 to 180 grains So there is a fairly large jump in weight as well as the diameter of the wound channel. The 50 will go through an elk if the ball is hard. A 45? I don't know for sure, but I doubt it.

I have been on hunts with men who killed deer with 45s and many if not most recovered their balls from the animals. So that makes me thing penetration may not be all we'd want on an elk.

The best sources to learn from is simply the writings of the old timers. When flintlock muzzleloaders were the "assault rifles" of the day, men would shoot anything that presented itself, with anything they had in their hands. Reading those old letters we do see a lot of wounded game that got away from a lot of shooters and if you look at the rifles they carried you get a very good idea of what was effective most of the time, and what was not.

I have been a muzzleloading hunter for most of my life, but if I look at the old timers, many of them killed more deer and elk in a month than I will in my life. Most didn't keep technical notes, but some did. Those that did are a gold mine of info.

As a rule what was considered to be "elk rifle" in the early m800s fired balls of "40 to the pound" I have read that number from about 6 old hunters. Well there are 7000 grains in a pound. 7000 divided by 40 =175 grains. That's about 49-50 caliber. So it was then. So it is now.

As TerryK said, you can kill elk with a 22, but that doesn't mean it's a good choice for your elk rifle.
I have read more such reports from hunters in India and Africa then in America, but an 800 pound animal in a different location still weight 800 pounds. If the balls are doing the job and going clear through I think that will show us about what to expect.

I own and shoot 2 flintlock for my hunting. One is a 50 and the other is a 62. The 62 has put a lot of game in the freezer. I killed one moose with it, and after breaking both upper leg bones it still exited. I doubt the FPE would have been impressive to someone shooting a 338 ultra mag, but the moose seemed to be VERY impressed.
Boom and down.
Get my knife out.

I shoot hard .605" balls ( about 326 grains)with 140 gr of 3F Goex. The chronograph says I am getting 1800 FPS + or - about 15.

I killed that moose at about 80 yards. I don't know how fast the ball was going when it hit the moose, but I can tell you faithfully, it was fast enough.

I don't use .50 RBs on elk because of a bad experience I had using them on a whitetail buck. I recovered the buck, so I know where I hit it, which was exactly where I was aiming. He was standing still, broadside, at 30 yards.

He wasn't impressed and neither am I. There are better projectiles for elk.

Every animal I've shot with the 50cal patched ball has complained about feeling light headed, dizzy and an unexpected loss of blood pressure

No problems...more than enough,just like anything else..placement.

Agreed. With 370 grain maxiballs it does offer some very nice penetration though.

Shot placement with my buck was as good as it gets. Double-lunged but no exit broadside at 30 yards. The deer ran off probably 250 yards and died in a thicket, almost didn't find it. I talked to some old-timers who said they'd seen the same thing, and that sometimes an RB will flatten slightly, turn sideways, and slide through like a disc.

I've never had that happen with a full-sized lead conical, with elk or deer.

In CO it's the legal minimum.

Wyoming too.

" I talked to some old-timers who said they'd seen the same thing, and that sometimes an RB will flatten slightly, turn sideways, and slide through like a disc."

Yup that's exactly correct.

And not just 50 cals. Any ball that is made of soft lead. I saw it one time when I was in High School from a 75 cal Brown Bess shot by a buddy of mine. Killed a mule deer and we were shocked to find the ball in it's rear leg after Jerry shot it in the chest more-less broad side.

THAT is the exact reason I tell hunter to use WW metal.

I have seen elk shot clear through many times with 50 cal balls cast from W.W. and I have shot through every animal I have ever killed with them in 50, 54 58 and 62 cals.

Blaming the caliber is exactly like those that shoot a 30-06 with 130 or even 150 grain thin jacketed bullet and have poor performance, then say a 30-06 is not enough gun for elk.
The bullets must hold together to penetrate. A perfect mushroom of 70% or better basically turns into the front half of a ball. That's what we are trying to get with every good big game bullet. So a 180 grain 30 cal if it expands perfectly and doesn't blow up will come to rest at about 140 grains and the part doing the damage is going to effectively be close a 50 cal ball. A Jacketed bullets also loose about 40% of their velocity in the act of expanding. This was an very interesting test we did when i was CEO of Cast Performance. Using clear ballistic gel, and shooting high speed we found that the 40% rule was pretty accurate across the full line of hunting bullets that hold 65% of their weight or more. Bullets the came apart didn't do as well.

So a 180 gr 30-06 that leaves the muzzle at 2700 FPS will hit the elk at about 2400 FPS in many cases. If we take 2400 FPS and deduct 40% we see the bullet is going about 1300 FPS 2" into the animal. So we see the wound made by the 50 cal hard ball and the 30-06 are about equal, and now we can see why. Makes sense. The "kill-strokes" (for lack of a better term) of the 50 cal flintlock and the 30-06 are almost exactly the same. but the 30-06 will carry it a lot farther away. Ballistic coefficients and sectional densities are all about flight characteristics, but when the bullet hits we want it to turn into a BALL!

However if a ball flattens it becomes a disk. NOT GOOD! It will "float" on liquid like a snow saucer. Meat is mostly made of water. Such a shape will not travel very straight and as soon as it tips it's going where the path of least resistance takes it.

So the stories of how the old smokepoles just don't kill well is both true and false. Just like the stories of how a 7MM MAg just doesn't kill well. And for the same basic reason. Wrong bullet! 50 caliber and heavier balls kill VERY well as long as they stay mostly round just like .284" diameter bullet kill VERY well as long as they are not reduced to metal sand.


It's not the gun. It's not the shell.
It's the bullet hole that kills.

If any bullet doesn't work well, the hole ( the real goal) is not what we want.

But when they hold their shape they blast right through most game.

szihn: Where did you see me blaming the caliber? For the last 10 years I've hunted elk every year with a .50 caliber rifle and brought one home each year. .50 caliber rifles are all I've ever used and I've never seen a need to use a different caliber or said so.

What I said was, there are better projectiles for elk than a 177 grain round ball.

Would you dispute that?

Where can I buy .490/177gr WW Metal roundballs in Michigan? Who online sells them?

Smokepole, my comments were in no way directed at you, except for the copied and pasted comment, in which I agreed with you 100%. They are simply statements to the readers---- An explanation of your comment and why it was right, and what to do about it.

GoexBlackhorn, I don't know where you can buy them. I always made them.

A Lee .490 mold is less than $25 I believe. If you have a pot (old cast iron well cap is fine) a ladle (again cheap and easy to get) a set of leather work gloves and a hole in the ground with a charcoal fire in it, you are ready to make hundreds of them in only a few hours

Interesting that a 50 caliber slug at 350 grains or so has twice the energy at 100 yards as the round ball. Again some "experts" say 1000 FPE is needed for elk, and with a 100 grains of powder the 350 grain maxi has that energy at 100 yards or so, and the round ball has half of the recommended energy.

I agree with szihn, energy figures and recommendations by "experts" don't mean a whole lot. "Experts" are writers who need to sell books and articles, so they need to generate interest in what they write. Throwing around recommendations like that is one way to generate interest. But if you asked them what those energy figures were based on, they'd have a hard time convincing you of their value.

I have a book by Craig Boddington where he gives 2000 ft lbs. as the recommended energy for elk. A big, slow hunk of lead can't be evaluated the same as a sleek jacketed bullet at 3000 fps. Because in the energy calculation velocity is king. With a big hunk of lead like a 350-500 grain bullet, velocity doesn't mean that much. So given a light bullet that gets its 1000 ft lbs from velocity vs a heavy one that gets the ft lbs from mass, I'd take the heavy one every time.

szihn, thanks for the explanation, sorry for the confusion.

I will say that if I ever want to hunt elk traditionally with an RB, personally I'd go with a .58. Or at least a .54.

W.W. can be found a tire changing place on smi tires

Sharpsguy and I cast some round balls for my 58 out of 20 to 1 alloy, complete penetration on two deer so far with taking out a shoulder on both on the way in.

Is that Semi Tires? I didn't think Semi Tires are balanced.

Most tire dealers now are recycling lead wheel weights if they still use them.

Yes, I have my semi tires spun balanced and also use the hub balancers, keep a 6 pack of equal bean bags in the glove box if I get out and have a roadside flat.

It doesn't need to be semi tires.

szihn

I found a source for hard roundballs on another blackpowder website. Thanks for your reply.

Considering the expense and effort involved, if I were fortunate enough to have an opportunity to hunt elk, I'd be inclined not to risk a marginal choice of rifle and load.

If, on the other hand I had elk in my backyard and tags could be had with little effort, I'd feel a bit more casual about it.

Pappy, Although not in my back yard, but I have elk fairly close and I'm no casual about what I use.I was using a 295 gr conical,but stepped up to 348 gr i nmy 50 cals

Steve nice to see your post. The .54 flinter you built for me would do it.

Hummmmmm??

Rich?

Tom?

Terry C.

Ahhh Terry

How are you?

Did you make any meat with it, or just win more ribbons and trophies.

That rifle is famous from Hell to Texas. Yes, ribbons and trophies. You did a fantastic build on that rifle.

Thanks Terry.

Sound like wise choices. RBs run out of gas pretty quickly, and and elk is too grand a critter to risk using a marginal load. A .62 seems about right for RBs to me!

a 62cal just hits with a bigger hole. It still loses energy like a 50cal and won't hit with a huge amount more.

You can't judege round balls by current modern day ballistics.

What cleared elk from the eastern forests? Sure in hell wasnt the Winchester

I was thinking of those underhammer guns made out in Orygun, I believe. They use some mega-powder charges and yield some pretty good velocities and energies. Also cost a small fortune. October Country use to sell a big .62 side hammer too.

Your point about the Eastern elk is a good one. Actually, a .54 is what I'd probably choose, balancing velocity and diameter pretty well. Still mourning my Pedersoli Mortimer, sold during a tight spot while one of my sons was in college. Exellent shooter, once I got the ignition tweaked.

Years ago I got lucky and drew a late season muzzy tag in AZ. I killed a nice 6x6 with a Barnes MZ and was very pleased with the performance. when I boned out the front shoulder, I found a round ball flattened on the shoulder blade from long enough ago that I saw no sign of the hit. I swore at that time I'd never shoot anything but a tough, quality bullet at something the size of an elk. just my .02c

I have no doubt that fishnut is correct, but it means nothing about caliber.

My dad killed a big buck deer when I was in Jr High school and he removed a 30 cal bullet from it's shoulder blade. The core was separated from the jacket and the jacket measured .308 at it's base. We could not say what gun fired the bullet, other than the fact it was 30 caliber and the bullet was a boat-tail. The jacket and core piece together only weighed about 45 grains.

The bullet broke up. There was a lot of scar tissue and damage that had healed up, but obviously the wound was quite old.

But it doesn't mean that 30 cals are no good for deer!

It means the wrong bullet was shot at that deer.


If we used bullets that hold together and drive through you have good results. That's why I use, and I recommend using WW metal for balls on any game with any muzzleloader under 12 bore.

Soft balls are used by many, and many men kill deer with them, but we do hear stories like fishnut's and those storied are very often accurate.

However, shooting a harder ball has no "down side" and they do not stay inside the deer. In fact, in most cases they don't stay inside an elk. (read my earlier post)

Don't fall for the old tale that hard balls are not as accurate either. I have a shelf of ribbons and trophy's I have won when I was shooting flintlocks competitively. I started shooting WW balls in my late teens and I shot them at everything. Paper, rabbits, coyotes, crows, deer, elk and moose. I have been doing it now for about 45 years.

Many times for the best accuracy I will take 2 pieces of 80 grit wet-or-dry paper and glue them to 2 plates of glass or metal. Place 3-4 balls on one plate and put the other one on top. Roll the balls around between the 2 plates with light pressure. Wet-or-dry leaves no grit in the balls. It gives the balls a slight texture that grabs the patch a bit better. Ragged hole groups at 50 to 60 yards are common with such textured hard balls.

Men, try this, and I am sure you'll be happy with the results.

Both on paper and on game.

Happy hunting

I looked at muzzleloaders the same way I now look at hunting with handguns. FPE does not enter into the equation. Bigger cartridge, caliber, bullet the bigger the game. I loved the 54 with RB on whitetail, and think it would suffice for elk. Am intrigued with the hard RB concept.

Yeah, and cave men killed mastodons with spears.

It's all they had at the time.