Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Sling shot or slide release lever?

He certainly brings something to the training table, but that video demonstrates that he is selling a product to a wide market of people who carry a wide variety of firearms. So, he standardized on one technique for one size fits all. This is what he said:



Oh, OK, how many citizens or police in America wind up fighting with someone else’s gun? If so, how many people in said situations get a gun that is a different make or model with no commonality of platform? If it is a different gun and a different platform, why would there be reason to believe that the ammo in his magazine pouches or the magazines themselves will fit in said gun.



He never says that a slide lock release is prone to error or less effective or slower. He just uses this technique because it works on every gun on the planet, which makes it easier to teach the thousands of people who pass through his classes each year. In fact, he implicitly concedes that it is slower but discounts that speed is a big deal in reloading during gunfights when he mentions that nobody has a timer during a gunfight.

Before adopting any technique, it is a good idea to figure out the backstory on why it is being taught, and how it fits into one's own needs and capabilities.

I really enjoy watching Robert Vogel. He is bad ass with his more or less factory Glocks. Here he is going so damn fast it's hard to see how he is releasing his slide (lever)!

Good point. Excluding LEO's, how many citizens have ended up in a self-defense engagements shooting enough rounds to require a reload? Talking about actual events that have occurred, not theoretical need.

There is so much wrong with that it's sad. No offense to Clint, in the 90's when very, very few knew how to run guns I'm sure what he said was about as good as it got. However it ain't 1992 anymore, there are small groups that have killed more people with carbines and pistols before sunup of a single night than ALL of law enforcement will in a year. Those dudes were trained by Robbie Leathem, The Burner, Todd Jarret, Jeff C., Frank Proctor, etc. because after a few gunfights they realized they needed the best shooters on the planet to teach them how to shot the gun.

It equally applies to civilians- shootings/fights are the only events in the world where the rank amateur and world class face the exact same task. You don't get a break because you are a banker or farmer and not a commando.



So let's just break what he said down-

1) "There's no timer in a gunfight".

Freaking stupid. Of course there is- and the other party has the timer. That's like saying "I've never seen a weight in a gunfight, so I don't care if you're as weak as a 10 year old boy". Again STUPID statement.


2) "Keep the gun between you and the target".

Just what is an empty gun going to do for me here? The thing is a paper weight without bang bangs- reload it as quickly as possible. It isn't a magic talisman- it's a tool. Use it as best as possible.

3) "When it locks back you're going to push forward"

Uhhh. That's called a "flinch" or "anticipation". I.e. You shouldn't be doing that.




You want to see some videos of people that know how to shoot, fight and train others to do the same?

Yes and no. The reasons each is engaging are fundamentally different, and thus the legal standards by which they will be judged afterwards are dramatically different.

A soldier clearing a house in Mosul has a different legal duty and motivation and will be judged by a different legal standard than a person in a self-defense scenario in a mall parking lot. A LEO intervening and emptying a mag is yet again another legal standard, as the LEO will be protected by qualified immunity in most, but not all, states, while the citizen is not.

If the average citizen empties the mag on a G19 in the mall parking lot, then reloads and goes at it again, every single bullet better have a defensible explanation attached to it. That he is a USPSA GM and can shoot and reload really fast is not a defense.

Shoot/don't shoot training is as important as speed and accuracy training, and yet rarely undertaken by most civilians with CHL's.

Good videos, thanks for linking those and your other input. Much appreciated.

How does the gun know that it's a civilian or a military shooter using it? It's a mechanics task, not a legal one.


On your other thoughts, times are different. Having worked with a bunch of local LE and Feds, I would get fired and prosecuted for a bunch of shootings that they get cleared on. If I smoked a villager holding a wallet instead of a gun and tried to explain that it was dark and I was scared/had tunnel vision, auditory exclusion/etc they would hang me. I/we are responsible for every single round fired and misses are unacceptable.


I guarantee you Frank,Kyle and Pat are WAY more concerned with surgical shooting and not hitting the wrong person than civilians, whether LE or not.

And... the reason a person- any person, whether they are CCW holder, police or commando is engaging is because based upon the situation, they need to shoot someone. There may be a difference is getting to the point of shooting, but once the decision has been made to shoot, there is no difference. Saying there is at that point, is either due to ignorance or trying justify crappy training/standards/techniques/etc.

How many times a citizens needs a reload is irrelevant, if it happens that you need a reload.

People are trying to apply emotion to a mechanical act. Reloading an empty gun is a MECHANICAL action, not an emotional event.

Let's try a thought exercise.

We have four robots. One is a USPSA GM competitor. One is a banker with a CCW. One is a Police Officer. One is a high level Special military robot. They are each constrained with their particular laws and rules for shooting someone/something.

1) The competition robot is shooting an array of targets. His gun runs dry and he still has more targets left to shoot...

2) The Banker Robot is attacked by two guys trying to rob him. His gun runs dry and one person is still trying to kill him...

3) The cop robot is trying to stop an active shooter. His gun runs dry and the bad guy is still trying to kill school children...

4) The Special military robot is in Pakistan doing CQB on a kill/capture mission. He has just shot three dudes in two rooms. His gun runs dry and another bad guy runs in...



With each constrained by their own particular environment and situation, do you really believe that they would reload differently? They ALL need to get the gun back in working condition as fast as possible and get back to the task at hand.

what if I count my rounds and eject the magazine for a fresh one before the slide locks back? Instead of postulating a bunch of cerebral "what ifs" just go take a few training classes, if the instructor is worth a flip you will walk out better than you walked in. Not directed at anyone in specific.

Clint always had some strange ideas but he packages them in say-isms that some find witty.

He started the weird "A pistol is to fight your way to a rifle" silliness.



I don't know of any Top Tier instructor teaching the slingshot slide release.

I have taken classes with Mike Pannone and John "Shrek" McPhee and each taught to use the slide release on both pistols and rifles.

Talking about the different legal and community standards by which a soldier, LEO, and a citizen will be judged after the fact - not talking about reloads at all. Not taking issue with your technical comments, paying attention to those.

There will be dramatically different legal and community standards applied to review the conduct of a deployed soldier in a combat zone, as compared to a LEO using lethal force in the line of duty, vs. CHL in a self-defense scenario, vs. citizen on the sidewalk in San Francisco or Boston as the outer edge on the other end of the scale.


Cheyenne,

was just a question of curiosity, no more nor no less.

I agree the slide release wasn't designed to be ignored.

Slowly, deliberately and legally getting yourself killed in a gunfight doesn't seem the best approach.

Putting everything on your side and learning to win under the most adverse and unfair conditions seems a might better tact.

Am I missing something???

And I agree that if the fine motor skill of manipulating the slide release stymies a shooter he does not have much chance of successfully manipulating the trigger in a stressful situation.

One might posit that shooters who advocate the slingshot slide release will be doing a bunch of slingshoting when SHTF.

Your not missing anything.

That video is full of nonsense, bad advice and an obnoxious way of talking.

"There's no reason to believe that I'll fight with my gun"......What on earth is he talking about? There's a lot of pretty dang awesome reasons to believe you'll be fighting with YOUR gun.

Everybody just shut up and listen to Form because he's taking the time to tell you what nobody else has the knowledge, willingness, or patience to.

Without going into detail I know a guy that that didn't get to fight with his gun. Rare circumstances I know but I know of one.

Dink

LOL.

You're gonna love this.