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#11551411 - 11/03/16 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
gunswizard Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 7068
Randy Shuman was the most honest, knowledgeable and reputable dealer in the business. I visited his shop in Newville, PA many years ago and bought several M/70's from him.

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#11556501 - 11/05/16 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
Levers Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1800
Loc: Arizona
I bought one from Randy Shuman about 15 or 20 years ago, too. I only dealt with him a few times but he had a very good reputation back in the "Gunlist Days"....he probably still does. I understand that he sold the shop in Newville quite a while back but it may still be called Shuman's Gun Shop. I think he is still dealing in Winchesters as I talked with him a few years ago about another rifle....but I can't remember which one smile

He seemed to always have some great guns in Newville. He had a huge assortment of model 71s at one point. Many new in box guns and both a 33 WCF and a 45-70.

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#11557003 - 11/05/16 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
sbrmike Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 650
Loc: Potter County, PA
Randy sold shop. It is still called Shumans. Randy still sells quality guns - no shop
_________________________
PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor Member

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#11558755 - 11/06/16 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8989
Loc: SW Montana
Boliep: Sad attempt at forgery/fakery that one!
Be careful out there - the rip-off artists will (and do!) try ANYTHING.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#11573168 - 11/10/16 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
Levers Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1800
Loc: Arizona
I looked at a couple of the ones that were listed on Gunbroker and both seemed kind of iffy.....might be true that there are more fakes than real. The 5 in 358 seems to be hard to get just right......

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#11830992 - 02/16/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
soothsayer Online   content
New Member

Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 4
I bought my Dad a pre 64 model 70 358 win for Christmas last year. This is what the real thing looks like wink











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#11831028 - 02/16/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
sbrmike Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 650
Loc: Potter County, PA
Gees I responded on this post about Randy Shuman, I don't know why I didn't address the gun before!

FAKE!!!

308 rebored and restamped and then overly polished and reblued.
_________________________
PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor Member

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#11831147 - 02/16/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: Savage_99]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8989
Loc: SW Montana
Savage99: IF... your "358" caliber designation stamping looks like that one, then its more than likely YOU have a fake also!
The original posters depicted gun IS a fake.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#11831354 - 02/16/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: soothsayer]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 28382
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By soothsayer
I bought my Dad a pre 64 model 70 358 win for Christmas last year. This is what the real thing looks like wink












NICE! Congrats to your Pops! smile
_________________________
"One Eye Is Taken For An Eye"

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#11832076 - 02/16/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: gunner500]
Savage_99 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 14461
I looked at my M70 Featherweight again and the stamping on it's barrel is extremely fine like the one on this page. There is no stamping over on mine to change the 0 to a 5.


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#11832631 - 02/17/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: Savage_99]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 28382
Loc: Oklahoma
Regardless, Soothsayers Pop is a lucky man to have a son and a rifle like that.

Hope the old gentleman gets that rifle scoped up and kills some game with it this season. cool
_________________________
"One Eye Is Taken For An Eye"

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#11832830 - 02/17/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: gunner500]
soothsayer Online   content
New Member

Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By gunner500
Regardless, Soothsayers Pop is a lucky man to have a son and a rifle like that.

Hope the old gentleman gets that rifle scoped up and kills some game with it this season. cool



Thank you. My Dad will be 70 in March.
I hid the rifle in a bow rapped case
Behind the xmas tree and brought it
Out as a surprise much like the bbgun
In the film "A christmas story". It's the best christmas my dad has ever had and
The first rifle he received as an xmas gift since 1957. The jubilation and
Surprise he experienced when he opened it is something I'll remember for the rest of my life. My Dad has done a lot for me over the years.

We've shot the gun at the range but
It's too nice to hunt with, it's in the 95-98% range. It shoots great, crisp trigger. Great cartridge, no headspace hysteria here.

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#11832845 - 02/17/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
donsm70 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 4141
Loc: Western Pennsylvania
Very Nice!

donsm70
_________________________
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Life Member...Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Life Member...Keystone Country Elk Alliance
Life Member...National Rifle Association

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#11832859 - 02/17/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: Savage_99]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8989
Loc: SW Montana
Savbage_99: I am happy you are happy with YOUR 358!
The OP Rifle is definitely bogus.
And for your information the "0" as you reference, on fakes is first "filled in" and then restamped "to a 5" in case you have never seen one of these attempts at fakery.
On the several fakes I have seen in person over the last several decades (and ones as recent as last year here at gunshows in SE Idaho and central Montana) they have ALL been filled in, then stamped over - there is no evidence on any I have seen of the "0" like you allude to being visible at all.
These "faked" 358's are still easily discernible both by the obviousness of the "restamp" but other obvious clues like being out of serial number range for an original 358, incorrect stock style etc etc etc.
Sad that anyone would try to make a buck by deceit/forgery.
The 358's I have bought and own were inspected with high powered optical devices EXTREMELY carefully/closely - only then did I move forward to check out the Rifles other defining attributes.
Buyer beware - be VERY aware.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#11832881 - 02/17/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
soothsayer Online   content
New Member

Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 4
Cabelas has one on gunsinternational with a ketchup red monte carlo comb, worst refinish ever.

Glad I got an authentic one.

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#11834416 - 02/17/17 Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
Sheister Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 3751
Loc: Oregon
I've seen some faked Pre 64's where the gunsmith's buddy would do a photoetch of the original stamping and redo the markings on the rifle after gunsmithing and/or modifications were completed and before blue. You would have to be very good and have a good scope to detect it had been faked- but I was shown how to detect this type of fakery.
I will say this gunsmith never tried to pass these off as original pieces- his aim was to make a clone as close to original as possible for his own uses. Not even sure he ever sold any of them.
This is one of the reasons I don't collect Pre 64's, even though I own several of them. Shooter grade for me, as I want something I can hunt with and not cry if it gets scratched, wet, or a bit of rust on the metal....

Bob
_________________________
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability.

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#11834976 - Yesterday at 12:18 AM Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
pre64win Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/16
Posts: 99
Loc: WA
I concur with what Sheister has said. There are very sophisticated counterfeit model 70s out there which require a forensic approach to determine they are not original - you cannot detect they are a fake by a close visual, even magnified examination.

The .358 mentioned in the OP is a feeble attempt at fakery which would not fool any serious collector. However, the existence of very good fakes in some extremely rare chamberings has made most collectors very wary of paying huge sums of money for what appears to be a mint rifle in a rare chambering. Many collectors are protecting themselves by only buying rifles with provable provenance, which is a very troubling side-effect of people counterfeiting rifles. Collectors who have perfectly legit and rare guns are at risk of seeing potential buyers shy away from those rifles if the owner cannot prove they are authentic.

I know of some collectors who have started cataloging every serial number they can find and noting the chambering and other details about the rifle. This seems like a daunting task when there are 700,000 pre-64 model 70s out there, but this effort has already resulted in identifying rare rifles which have been faked. When a mint .270 sells on RIA for $1,700 in 2008, then the same serial number reappears in 2016 on J.D. Julia as a 250-3000 Savage with an estimated sale price of $14,000, they know not to buy it and they also sound the alarm to other collectors about the clearly faked rifle. Often, the person selling it has no idea it is a fake. They bought it several years before with no clue there was a problem. I've seen careful collectors detect faked rifles by tracking serial numbers on two different occasions. Occasionally there has been talk from WACA members about creating an online database for logging and cross-referencing model 70 serial numbers. In the absence of Winchester factory records on the model 70, such a database would be a huge help in putting an end to the counterfeit rifle business.

I'll get off my soap box now.

Cheers,

Justin

PS: I hope some day my son buys me a .358 smile
_________________________
Owner of pre64win.com, the internet's top website for enthusiasts, collectors & builders of the pre-64 Winchester model 70

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#11835321 - Yesterday at 06:32 AM Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: pre64win]
soothsayer Online   content
New Member

Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 4
I was talking to a friend in Alaska about how whenever a pre 64 7mm comes up for auction, if it's a standard grade it's virtually mint OR it's a carbine. His reasoning for this was that most of them are fake. He may be correct.

Sometimes a little normal use wear can be your friend. Especially when the rifle has just enough wear in the right places to indicate that it was carried and potentially hunted with some. It's what I like to call a "good honest gun".

There's a 358 on guns international now that is sale pending, the seller wanted $4650 for the gun. The metal on the gun is virtually flawless but there's a good bit of finish loss on the stock, hmmmm.

There was another that sold a week after I got Dad's by the same seller (as a consignment), a gun that was listed as a result of my purchase, albeit not nearly as nice as mine but way more expensive. This particular one had an aftermarket jeweled bolt and a mauser style trigger guard with the button. It also had significant amount of compression marks and scratches throughout the wood. Even so, someone paid $4500 for it. Makes me feel good about the deal I got on mine wink

There's a 358 on gunbroker now which is likely original. It has had the stock cut to accommodate a receiver site, the listing speaks of provenance so I guess you could get the guy to sign an affidavit lol. Pictures aren't so great but appears to be a nice rifle. Also, per his last list Randy Shuman had a 358.


Originally Posted By pre64win
I concur with what Sheister has said. There are very sophisticated counterfeit model 70s out there which require a forensic approach to determine they are not original - you cannot detect they are a fake by a close visual, even magnified examination.

The .358 mentioned in the OP is a feeble attempt at fakery which would not fool any serious collector. However, the existence of very good fakes in some extremely rare chamberings has made most collectors very wary of paying huge sums of money for what appears to be a mint rifle in a rare chambering. Many collectors are protecting themselves by only buying rifles with provable provenance, which is a very troubling side-effect of people counterfeiting rifles. Collectors who have perfectly legit and rare guns are at risk of seeing potential buyers shy away from those rifles if the owner cannot prove they are authentic.

I know of some collectors who have started cataloging every serial number they can find and noting the chambering and other details about the rifle. This seems like a daunting task when there are 700,000 pre-64 model 70s out there, but this effort has already resulted in identifying rare rifles which have been faked. When a mint .270 sells on RIA for $1,700 in 2008, then the same serial number reappears in 2016 on J.D. Julia as a 250-3000 Savage with an estimated sale price of $14,000, they know not to buy it and they also sound the alarm to other collectors about the clearly faked rifle. Often, the person selling it has no idea it is a fake. They bought it several years before with no clue there was a problem. I've seen careful collectors detect faked rifles by tracking serial numbers on two different occasions. Occasionally there has been talk from WACA members about creating an online database for logging and cross-referencing model 70 serial numbers. In the absence of Winchester factory records on the model 70, such a database would be a huge help in putting an end to the counterfeit rifle business.

I'll get off my soap box now.

Cheers,

Justin

PS: I hope some day my son buys me a .358 smile

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#11835396 - Yesterday at 07:05 AM Re: Pre 64 Model 70-Featherweight 358 caliber [Re: boliep]
GSPfan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/11/14
Posts: 937
Loc: Mid Michigan
I bought my 358 from Randy decades ago and if there bringing $4500+/- then maybe it's time to move it on. I haven't shot it in at least 10 years.

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