Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Spanish Mauser Rockwell numbers?

I have a Spanish Mauser (1893 model) that I am going to have re-barreled. As such I decided to have the lugs and action re-heat treated (case hardened). I have found an outfit that will do it, but it has been a while since they did one, and their procedure for doing it was written for using a salt bath, which they say they no longer have due to the amount of newer EPA regulation and associated costs. They can still do the job, but they need me to provide the specific desired surface hardness for the lugs and the action. Would anyone be able to help out with some recommendations on Rockwell numbers?

good luck

Wind mill, huh?

Pretty much. I can think of 138 better ways to spend money than putting it into a Spanish Mauser. But that's me, not you.

I wouldn't spend $$ on a Spanish-built SR Mauser. The Spanish-built Mauser don't have a very good reputation for quality of manufacture or materials. If you're going to spend $$ on a SR pre-1898 style Mauser, Swedish-built 1894/1896/1938 styles Mausers are the best place to put your $$, at least IMO.

It is your $$ to spend, but having rebarreled a couple dozen SR pre-1898 style Mausers, I wouldn't put my $$ into any action that was a Swed or, maybe, a Ludwig Lowe-built 1895 Chilean.

Well, I will admit to having particular tastes, and they often result in outcomes that are somewhat unique. I try not to indulge them more often than I can afford. This one was sporterized when I bought it, and the condition of the action & bolt is rather nice, but it still has an original barrel and what is left of what I assume was the original stock. Such things give me itches in the primitive parts of my brain when they sit in my gun safe for any length of time.

260Remguy: As you say that you have “rebarreled a couple dozen SR pre-1898 style Mausers” would you be able to advise me on whether a 93 will fit into a sporter style 96 stock?

Any case hardening method by molten salt bath or not will give a hard case only a few thou. thick. It will do nothing for the yield strength of the action. The only benefit will be wear protection.

FWIW, modern alloy steel actions are usually around 38-42 RC all over. There is no direct correlation to case hardened actions as the hardness testing method is different for the thin case versus a through hardened steel surface.

RAN

I am aware of that. From what I have read on the subject it seems as though given the properties of the steel that the Mauser brother were working with they relied on mass and design to handle the pressures involved. But I have also read that many of these actions were rebarreled to 7.62x51 NATO post by the Spanish, so I assume that, subject to direct experience of those who have gone down this path before me, it can be done if one is armed with the rite information.

260Remguy: As you say that you have “rebarreled a couple dozen SR pre-1898 style Mausers” would you be able to advise me on whether a 93 will fit into a sporter style 96 stock?

Back in the '80's a gunsmith friend and I built a number of very nice rifles on the 93/95 actions. We could buy short chambered and pre-threaded Shilen barrels for less than $100 bucks each from Brownnells.

We rust blued and checkered them, D&T'd the actions and put new bolt handles and safeties on them...and they were beautiful little guns in useful calibers. We were always sure they they were accurate and functional. We tried to get $1,000 to $750 for them...then $500.. $400... Etc...etc. my friend got rid of most of them at give away prices. I still have two of them. A guy wanted to buy one...said he'd give me $250 for it. The stock blank cost me that much.

The highest and best use for a 93/95 is to bob the barrel to 20" put a decent set of sights on it and throw it in your truck.

I suffer from a condition whereby actual resale value fails to ever make it into the list of considerations on one of my automotive or firearms project. One would think that this might cause me distress at some point, but I have failed to get there yet.

I just got back from talking to my gunsmith and after discussing it I left him to ponder for a week or so what I would like to: 20” light to medium weight barrel, receiver mounted adjustable aperture sight, and restocked with an exhibition grade Mannlicher length Turkish Circassian Walnut blank in a slim full length stock with a steel cap.
The calibers we discussed were 7x57, .338 Federal, and .338x57mm.

Oh, I forgot optics. The condition extends there as well. Old Bausch & Lomb binoculars are the worst. I can’t seem to resist buying them and then having them torn down and refurbished.

I have a 96 in a 93 stock. The action fit good but the steps in the barrel didn't line up. Also built a 7mm-08 out of a 93. I shoot 120gr out of it and don't push it hard. That keeps the pressure down. But it is my truck gun, doe and yote popper.

Good info. Thanks.

Pac Met will recase your mauser. They have done many. Do a search and call them.

FWIW, I've enjoyed reading posts on various gun sites since around 2005. Had a C&R license for around 6 years, used mostly to buy surplus military rifles. Spent a lot of time on websites devoted to military rifles.

Lots of surplus 93 Spanish mausers were sold in the U.S. Remember a post by a gent who wrote he'd been working on a dock of some Eastern U.S. port, back in the day when huge numbers of surplus rifles came from Europe to the U.S. There was a ship was unloaded. It's only cargo was Spanish 93 mausers. Gent wrote, there were over 3 pallets, just of paperwork for the rifles...that somewhere, he thought, there must be a warehouse with lots of them still stored....just no way, all those rifles that came off the ship, could have been sold.

Chuckle, about 7 years ago, a gunshow dealer had a box of Spanish Oviedo 93 actions, prepped for building on, bolts had been turned and etc., for $20 each. Yea, I bought a couple of them and used them. I had them barreled with cartridges suitable for them, such as a 257R or 7x57.

Is yours a German made (DMW/Lowe) or an Ovideo (made in Spain). Some difference between the two when it comes to quality of the metal in the receivers.

Lets just say, the German had a better quality metal in the receiver and etc., than the Spanish made. However, do recall a post by a gent who was a gunsmith, that'd worked on many a Spanish made 93 mauser. Essentially, he commented about them being decent to build on......Yea, the German made had a better metal and the Spanish metal was softer, but he maintained with the proper cartridge for the 93 action, they were just fine to build on. But, one should look for lug set-back in the Spanish receiver.

That's my 2 cents worth

It’s a Spanish 93. I can’t make out any of the year stamp except for the last digit, which is 9, and the middle of “Oviedo” and the crown is buffed away as someone got carried away with the buffing wheel, but there is enough there to positively ID it.

There is no evidence of set-back. The action was worked over by whoever did the sporterizing and it cycles smoothly, with no binding, and to all appearance is excellent condition.

Brownell's used to sell custom barrels in 257R, 250S, 300S, 35R, etc for Mauser 93/95 actions.

Are you close to the Tomball Range?

From an article written by Mike Hudson and published on Chuck Hawk's website:

"Instead of SAAMI, the Europeans employ C.I.P., the Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing. A far more independent organization, the C.I.P. was founded in 1914 and does not answer to corporate American or European gunmakers. According to official C.I.P. guidelines, the 7×57mm case can handle up to 390 MPa (56,564 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries, every rifle/cartridge combination has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.

By contrast, SAAMI specifies a far lower maximum pressure of 46,000 CUP or 51,000 psi. Although this lower specification is due to concern about the allegedly weaker actions of the older Mauser 93 and 95 rifles, this anxiety is misplaced, as the original ammunition developed for, and issued with, the M-93 Spanish Mauser produced an average pressure of 50,370 CUP in those rifles. Since the Spaniards continued building M-93s themselves into the 1950s, continued C.I.P. proof testing would have uncovered any inherent weakness in the action."

Food for thought.

Butch,

I saw some pictures that you posted on another site of small ring Mauser...did you do your own stock work?

Yes

The Spanish SRs in 7.62x51 are intended to shoot lower pressure CETME ammo. Having all of the information and understanding the context is kind of important too, wouldn't you agree?

This is your project and your $$, so you should probably build it to meet your expectations.

I quite agree that context is always needed to evaluate things correctly.
I have a CETME rifle and so have done a little research on them, and from what I read I was under the impression that the driving force for the development of lower power CETME 7.62x51 ammunition was the introduction of early versions of the CETME auto loading rifle. As the Spanish did not yet have sufficient inventory to equip and train all of their troops they elected to rebarrel the Mausers they still had in inventory to the same caliber and issue them to auxiliaries.

I do realize that I can get a little lost when I go down one of these rabbit holes. That's why I reach out to folks like you and the others that were kind enough to respond to my post. Helps to keep from getting into too much trouble.

Just like when building a house you want to start with a good foundation, a good ROT to avoid trouble when building a rifle is to start with a good action.

But it's your $$, your build, so you should do it your way.

I do most of the metal work, but no woodwork or bluing.

If you don't mind me asking; Who did? And are they still making stocks?

OT. As I recall the CETME round fired a 144gr FMJ at around 23-2400fps. I always thought with the weight of the M-14, it would be fully controllable on full auto with that round.

I had an Oviedo Mauser that had been converted to 7.62X51.
E R Shaw rebarreled it to .243 for me. While I didn't hot-rod my loads, I never had a problem with middle of the road type ammunition.
I'd still be using that little rifle, except some a-hole stole it out of my feed truck. It was very accurate.

You don't happen to remember what year was stamped on it, do you?

Back in the early 90's a buddy re-barreled a Spanish 93 to .308 Winchester. All went well until one day he was shooting up a batch of European NATO 7.62 surplus ammo, and he experienced a pierced primer. The gases that spit back in his face could've blinded him had he not been wearing safety glasses. Points to the fact that M93's had poor gas handling characteristics compared to later Mauser designs and most subsequent commercial designs.

I often read of that in journals and around the internet, and always have to agree, based on admittedly a sample of one personal experience. Still and all...

I noted a hole on the left side of the front of the receiver that looks like someone drilled two holes close to each other and then filed them into a single opening.

I initially thought that this was a modification that the gunsmith who sporterized the rifle had done to accommodate just such an eventuality.

Now, after looking through a lot of pictures, and seeing the identically shaped and placed hole on several Spanish rifles, I suspect that it was actually done using a single jig at a Spanish armory.

I have used James Kobe, Evan Koch, James Anderson, and Dean Zollinger.

IMO, the pre-1898 style SR Mauser actions biggest design fault is the way that it channels escaping gas from a pierced primer or separated case back toward the shooter. That is why when I build a rifle on a Swedish military or Husqvarna commercial SR pre-1898 style Mauser action, I install a commercial style bolt shroud from Brownells with a larger gas shield.

This isn't my project and I've said my bit, so que sera sera.

Wiki says that CETME ammo was loaded with a 113 grain plastic core bullet at 2,600 fps with the objective being low recoil and controllable full-auto fire.

Go with someone experienced if you must. The numbers don't tell the story on case hardened receivers. Typically receivers that were case hardened were low carbon steel that could not be hardened by heat treating. Case hardening allowed carbon from charcoal or leather to sink into the red hot steel but it only will go a maximum of .020 inch. Most case hardening will be less than .010 inch. This gave a receiver that would resist cracking through or breaking because the core was soft but resisted wear and corrosion to some degree with a super hard skin. If you case harden modern receivers you will have to draw or soften the hardness because they will harden through and be brittle. Since 50,000 of pressure will be 6 inches in front of your eye maybe you should look for a modern receiver and enjoy the old Mauser on the wall

Sorry, I don't. It was the model with the squared bolt bottom, but it was stolen ~ 13 years ago.

Wiki is likely right. I saw the above discribed ammo for sale at Sportsmans Guide some years. It was listed as CETME/.308. Maybe it was one of the experimental rounds the Spanish produced during that time.

Look to your left, and throw your wallet into that rubbish bin, it will be a better use of your coin.

Comments like that always make me wonder: what is it about us that we can so casually dismiss the wants and ambitions of other out of hand? I suspect that were we all to subscribe to the same sensibilities the world would be a safer, quieter place, and terribly dull.

I want to build a thing a certain way, not for acceptance or admiration by others, but because it appeals to my sense of aesthetic, and the idea of it being pleases me. No other justification is needed, or for the enthusiast, needed.

Absolutely true. I feel the same way- but I draw the line at M93 Spanish Mausers!

It is your money sport, do as you will...just don't bitch when you post and invite comment.


And since you haven't asked, the actions and bolt are deep case hardened (carburised) so good luck with obtaining an appropriate Rc for a low carbon steel.

I was already well aware of the fact that such actions were case hardening, and can be read in my earlier posts in this thread. What I was hunting for was a modern measure of what such hardening should be. Given that the Rockwell methods can be used to do this, and are fairly universal familiar to gunsmiths, I thought that I would ask for that information first, before moving on to searching for more esoteric standard references like Vickers or Knoop hardness traverse methods.

And I was not “bitching”. I was pointing out in what I though was a gentle fashion, that your comment was not helpful to my inquiry and that as enthusiasts we should celebrate our different follies rather than be dismissive.

You are right...have a good life.

If you come here seeking guidance, you're likely to get a wide range of feedback.

Having built a couple dozen rifles on SR pre-1898 Swedish military and commercial, Husqvarna 640 "strengthened", actions, I feel pretty confident in offering feedback based solely on my experience with them. I'm a fan of the Swedish actions because they were never built under wartime conditions and they were always built to the highest standards of materials and manufacturing. Despite their excellence, they retain the basic design flaw of all pre-1898 SR Mausers, in that they don't handle escaping gas as well as the 1898 style Mausers. This flaw can easily be mitigated by installing a commercial style bolt shroud with a larger gas shield during the build.

I am not a fan of Spanish-built Mausers of any sort and feel that none of them, even the commercial Santa Barbara LR 98s, aren't equal to the Swedish-built Mauser actions in either materials or manufacturing. The great majority of Spanish-built SR pre-1898 style military Mausers that I have seen over the years have been in rough shape, so I have a bias against them and certainly wouldn't recommend building a rifle on one of them if there were viable alternative actions available. For example, if someone was looking for a 243, I'd recommend the Marlin XS7s that CDNN is closing out for $250 over almost any 243 built on a used military action. Whatever you choose to do, good luck with it.

I built a rifle with a 95 action that uses the 7.62x39 case.
It shoots a 75 grain bullet at 3025 FPS all day long in a dog field.

Don't know what the pressures are but have not noticed any bolt stress.

Just last year i built a 300 sav.on a Swedish 38 or 96 i forget what model.
It might not be in the same pressure range as the 308 win.it is fun to shoot.
That said if one chooses to shoot the 308 in a 93-95 Mauser i would not want to stand close by.

One more thing it's your project do it as you will,just have fun.

For me, having seen more than one Spanish small ring with set-back, I would stay away from anything of higher intensity than a .35 Remington. That said, a rifle built like you describe in .35 Rem. would be pretty sweet. If anything, the fact that full-stocked .35R bolt actions don't exactly grow on trees would tend to justify the build in my estimation. I would probably keep it stupid simple with just a receiver sight as well. Really trim and light, with balance. My opinion. Imagine hunting that in the woods with snow coming down.

I have heard several guys talk about doing the 7.62x39 conversion, and I know that quite a few have been done on SMLE actions as well.

I liked the visual you painted. It does indeed have appeal.
Midway no longer offers the Green Mountain Series 2 barrels in anything other than the 7x57 in a lightweight F-17 profile, so as they available “off the shelf”, and the price is very favorable, I am going to go with that and have it trimmed down from 21 to 20 inches.

As an aside, can anyone educate me on the technical merits of cocking on opening vs closing?

Dayton-Traister makes a cock-on-opening kit for pre-1898 style Mausers that is easy to install if you have access to a mill. I install them on all of my Swedish Mauser builds.

I'll check it out.

The reason I was wondering is one of the comments was someone saying that they preferred their bolts set up for cocking on opening. That got me wondering about what the merits of one over the other.

I did up a Marlin XS7s for my Father that I bought from CDNN. I had it restocked in bedded pepper laminate stock from Boyds and topped it with a Weaver K6. It made for a somewhat heavy outfit, but it shot extremely well, and the trigger was superb.

The Mauser brothers must have felt that COO was superior to COC, since all of the 1898 style Mausers were designed that way.

Yeah…but why?

Safer, the striker is less likely to ride over the sear in a COO than a COC. Just one of the improvements made in Peter Paul Mauser's Magnum Opus, the Model 98.

Thanks!

I've been watching these slow motion train wrecks involving shot-to-sh*t Spanish Mausers for about a half century now. If I had a dollar for every one I witnessed getting sporterized, seen at gun shows for next to nothing, and tripped over in low rent gun shops, I could take the whole lot of y'all out for drinks. It's actually quite good theater.

Here is a pic of one of my train wrecks...

Lee Enfield custom restocking, #6a
http://www.mpistocks.com/newproducts.htm

No one will ever want it for what I paid to have it done (action polished and slicked up, Montana Rifle barrel fitted, new sights, a Huber roller type trigger, and MPI did a custom stock for it). But I still love it and it gives me loads of enjoyment, even when the weather outside is lousy and I can't get out to go shooting. Prints at between 1" and 1.5" with Wolf .303 soft points using the Williams adjustable peep sight.

My last project was engraved and English walnut stocked Mossberg Maverick rifle in .308 Win.

To paraphrase what other here have told me: its' your train wreck, so enjoy the ride.

Wrong answer...correct answer is "you are right, have a good life".

The Dayton Traister kit can be installed using a dremel tool and taking your time. The instructions aren't good, but I used a 98 bolt as an example. Getting the angle right and polishing it are the details.
I had to get a Wolff 24lb spring as the Dayton spring wanted to bind inside the bolt.
The main advantage is shorter lock time. Though that is a questionable improvement. I can tell the difference in lock time from my unaltered Husqvarna, but I don't think the rifle is better and won't bother doing it again. Just practice good hold and you shouldn't need it.

Clayton,
Have you considered doing the rebarrel and polishing, then having the whole shebang Black Nitride/Melonite treated?
Since the Mauser action design was to have surface hardening for wear and a mild interior for yield strength, it might be worth talking to one of the companies that specialize in this. It's the cat's meow, preferred over chrome bores for AR barrels and bolt assemblies these days.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...tride&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2664j0j8

I thought about several options, but considering that whoever did the original sporterizing put a fair amount of effort in the polishing and bluing that it exhibits seems like a shame not to keep it that way.

Butch,

I'm close to and a member of the Crosby range...BASCTX.com. One of our board members was on the Tomball board of directors too and is still a member there. By the way, enjoyed one your presentations at your open house a few years ago.

Thanks, The Shilen Swap Meet may be put off until next year. Wade Hull bought a large piece of property on I45. They are renovating the building and running wiring. The process of moving all that machinery is a daunting task.
I think they will be lucky to be moved in by May.

Cock on closing works just fine if you practice. I shot a 1917 across the course and it was never a problem shooting 10 rounds of 3006 in 60 seconds

Just curious...if one was to have it done...and you had a new barrel...would it be advisable to have the barrel broke-in or lapped prior to having the treatment done?

I always send a new barrel and thoroughly cleaned before and after.

I'm no expert on it. You might want to Google up Melonite and read some of the comments on other boards. Supposedly it will replace chrome for military bores. Haven't seen it yet though.
Mainly AR barrels and bolt assemblies come from the vendors already done, but a few have done bolt guns. Have to read with a squint, 'cause you know, people tend to to be cured by placebos.
I guess it could be argued either way. I would break it in, clean it good with J-B and Montana Xtreme, then send the barreled action out.
Once it is Melonited, it is as hard as steel can get. It'll take forever to smooth out any reamer marks in the throat if you Melonite first.

Mr. Lambert has more first hand experience than me.

I do have two Melonited AR15 barrels and honestly, they don't copper foul at all. I can't believe they bothered to hand lap them before treatment at $125 a barrel.

It's not a surface coating, it's like a hot salt bath that penetrates and modifies the steel. Or so I read, I'm not an expert on steel treatments.