Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Pre-64 help please

Gentlemen, hope you don't mind my ignorance but I was wondering if anybody can shed some light for me...I'll let the pictures do the talking and I'll listen but best I can determine this was made in '40 or '41 (ser.# 40xxx) I realize of course the stock nor barrel are original and the safety seems to have been changed. The 26" barrel is stamped 264 wacker improved on one side and apex match grade on the other.
Magazine follower is also missing..
Any comments whatsoever are welcome and appreciated!

Beautiful piece of wood- stock is unique, to say the least. Not exactly ugly, but not what a guy would consider classic lines. Checkering is extremely well done. Looks like pretty much a complete custom- reblue, new tube, a bit of spit and polish just about everywhere.. all in all, IMHO, a pretty nice piece built for someone with large hands and an extra long length of pull or long arms.

Bob

That is a beautiful piece of wood and the checkering looks nicely done. The roll over cheek piece ruins the lines for me. The safety looks original but reblued. If you don't get any info I will look in the Wildcat books about the Wacker Improved not familiar with that.

Someone at one time spent a lot of money on that one. Love the wood and the checkering. 264 Wacker Improved? No idea, a 264 Win Mag on steroids?

Lovely workmanship, but strange.

Now, I am curious. I would assume that since the rear bridge is not drilled and tapped for scope mounts the barrel would have sights on it, but if they do, the rear sight is quite forward of where I would think it to be? Something also seems to be amiss on the bolt? Just thinking my Model 70's seem to not have a recess at the rear of the bolt as this one shows, when cocked the firing pin assembly is out of the bolt sleeve and when it is not cocked I believe it is flush. Is there a firing pin in there?

Appreciate the responses so far guys. I agree it's a beautiful piece of wood with a slightly "different" style..
I did make a mistake tho, the serial number is 42xxx...
Knives, the firing pin is present and cocks and fires as it should. As I understand the pre-war models were not D&T on the rear of the receiver. Here's a few more pics just for the hell of it.
Ok knives I read a little closer and get what you are saying...I'll take a few more pics to hopefully clarify..

That would correct on the rear bridge not drilled or tapped, but even in your new pictures, I can't tell that it has sights. Old eyes and bad monitor!! I really like the way the stock maker did the long slim wrist.

I was writing while you were editing. I look forward to see more photo's.

Rifle fired...

Bolt lifted up only..

Bolt closed, cocking complete..

Very astute comments so far by some smart and observant folks!

Plus one from me on gorgeous wood and workmanship. The style leaves me cold, but that's just me. I too haven't figured out the sights, nor have I heard of the .264 Whacker Improved.

To add to the discussion:
If you do want to fit a scope, that early style of safety may give you some trouble.

Of all the things to go missing, the magazine follower? Makes me wonder if the "Whacker" had feeding issues, someone was working on the follower, one thing led to another, and the parts never got back together.

All good points gundoc, thank you..
I also can't find anything on the wacker imp, and the only info I find on Apex seems to be a company that mfgs pistol barrels.

You are welcome, but I don't know that I added much to some already astute comments.

I too was wondering about the Apex. I believe the Apex you found also sells some other handgun parts. I suspect we are talking about two different companies named Apex. It seems to be one of those fairly common names based on the concept of being the best, "pinnacle" being another example.

But maybe not. It couldn't hurt to contact them and find out.

I don't know how you feel about the stock, but a skillful stock maker could possibly "tone down" the cheek piece a bit. He could possibly do something about the flair on the pistol grip, but that would get into some very well done checkering.

Is there anything "uniquely stylish" about the fore end?

It would also be great to learn more about the provenance. It would be interesting to discover this was an early effort by someone who later became well known. Great craftsmanship, that's for sure.

I think Apex was a barrel maker post WWII to probably the early 1970's. I am thinking that they used to do a lot of reboring back in the day.

I may be totally mistaken and they just might be a brand of a large Pittsburgh, PA gun shop and were actually Douglas barrels. I can't remember the firm. I had been there many times. Gees I can't believe my memory sometimes!!!

Certifiable: That was a beautiful piece of wood!
In fact I kind of like its radical looks as it has been turned into.
I wish I knew something about the cartridge/caliber - haven't heard of that one.
Enjoy!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Had to rush home so I could check the Wildcat Cartridges II which is the only one I have and no luck on the 264 Wacker Improved. I did find that NUMRICH ARMs still list APEX Match Grade Barrels in 375 H&H and 243 on their website although out of stock and regular APEX barrels in 30 Cal.. The listing indicates that these barrels have threaded holes in the barrel for sights, is that the case with yours?

Gundoc... checkering runs all along both sides of the fore end but no fancy cap or other embellishment to speak of. I'll get a better pic of that

Varmintguy, I agree the piece of wood is really something! Done to a different style that's for sure but the grain is fantastic and carries the whole length of the stock

Knives...so at least I'm not the only one who can't turn up a thing on the wacker! This barrel has no holes for sights front or rear. With a cheek piece like that I can only assume this was to be strictly a scoped affair..?

I think a decent stockmaker could clean up that cheekpiece area and perhaps reduce the end of the grip a bit to definitely improve the overall look and feel. That wood is worth fussing with!

Depending on the price the stock could be re shaped and the action rebarreled to a different caliber. It's a nice piece of wood that's for sure.

I 100% agree on the fussing with! The wood is amazing but I would not want to mess with the checkering at all!

There was a guy about a year ago on ebay that was selling Pre 64 Model 70 stocks that were very close to this style. He was either a duplicator or selling off a few that had been duplicated for $900. Very much to these lines but with straight grain. I was offered one when I was asking on another forum for Pre 64 stocks.

If it is a 264 Win Mag Improved I would love to know what it is. I am a huge fan of the 264 mentioned. Maybe a 264 Clark?

Seeing as how a scope could hardly have been mounted and iron sights seem non existent, either the "Whacker" had supernatural powers of sending the bullet exactly where you wanted it to go, or that bore is nearly pristine. I'm betting on the latter. Cerrosafe is your best friend here. If you can figure out what in the hell the "Whacker" is, you can get dies made and load for it, or possibly set the barrel back a turn and re-chamber to something SOMEBODY has at least heard of.

Although looking at it again, I see setting it back a turn is going to mess with some really nicely done inletting around the chamber area . . . .

Maybe it will turn out the "Whacker" is the stroke of genius we have all been waiting for. Wait . . . Whacker? . . . . somebody call Ted Nugent!

Gundoc..it's my understanding Stith made mounts for these that only utilized the front action holes. I also agree a good stock man could tone down the cheekpiece a bit while leaving the rest in tact. I just might end up shootin some cerrosafe down to see what gives

It's Wacker!

If I am not mistaken the Stith used the front bridge and the rear sight slot for their mounts.

Have a chamber cast made,then compare to known wildcats.

I'd leave the stock alone,it has "panache."

Actually, it's WACKER IMP, but you're right, it isn't "Whacker." Do you think it is someone's name, as opposed to something used to "whack" something?

It's a Magnum bolt face, that's for sure. Definitively an intriguing rifle.

There is a Reed Wacker 501 Wildcat load data listed on the net that I saw earlier. To hard to chase down for me.

Since the barrel is an Apex, chances are the stock was done by them, as well. Stockmaker Monty Kennedy worked for Apex at one time; the stock is definitely in the Kennedy style, but I doubt that he did this one.

Have you pulled the barreled action? The stockmaker's name might be stamped in the inletting.

Prime Beef,

Just curious, if Kennedy worked for Apex and the stock is in the Kennedy style, why do you doubt he made the stock?

PB..thanks for that info. I will pull the action after work today and see what's there if anything

The original Apex Rifle Company was around for a long time, but Monty Kennedy only worked for them for a few years when they first started. The Kennedy stock style was a fairly popular one 40-50 years ago, and there were several outfits that sold pre-inletted blanks in that style, so it could be anybody's work.

It's a nice rifle, and the stock is a beautiful piece of wood, but to be perfectly candid, the level of detail (inletting, checkering, etc.) does not appear to be commensurate with the Kennedy stocks I've personally handled, or seen in pictures.

Prime.. I appreciate your honest insight on the topic. Feel free to chip in whatever you'd like..
I pulled the action and find no obvious initials or marks other than "264" in the barrel channel.

Here's a pic of the fore end and checkering that carries out

Another question. Does the bolt have the Serial Number Vibro etched on it?

Yes sir it has the matching # etched

Did some looking into the Apex barrel last night. I honestly don't believe it's had a round through it..soaked it with wipe-out and let it sit a while and this is how the patches came out.
Checked with a cleaning rod and the twist is somewhere between 8 and 9 erring closer to 8 after a few follow ups.
Read a little about Apex and it seems at one point they might have used gain twist rifling in some of their barrels but this one appears to be constant.
Still not sure about the wacker chambering but was able to fully chamber and eject a piece of .264wm brass

Sounds like a winner. Looks like a very nice rifle.

That is a ridiculously clean barrel... if it was shot it probably wasn't much.

I wouldn't expect it to have too many rounds through it either. No way to appropriately attach a scope and no iron sights... Good hip shooter though...

My best advice:
1. Drill and tap that sob: It's not a collectors piece. 2. Cerrosafe the chamber, so you know what you are dealing with.
3. Don't just go and load a 264w cartridge in it and fire away. 4. If you can stand the stock configuration, keep it the way it is. It's not what I'd consider a good hunting style stock. More for shooting off the bench, if even that.... It really looks like an unfinished project to me, you can make it better. Trust me...