Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin Talk Marlin 1895 versus 444...etc.

I used to go on the Marlin owners . Com But cannot get past the viruses so I am gonna ask you guys.

Thanks in advance

Is there a difference in the action or frame of the receivers between an 1895 and a 336 444, 375, or 356 ER?

When did the 444 switch to Ballard rifeling.

Does the 375, or 356 ER have trouble with microgroove rifling like the 444 is reported to?

When is the date that the Jim stamp disappears on marlin rifles?

When is the date that the Jm stamp is not relevant, as in those pieces are also suspect like that R.E.M.?

When is the date the REM. pieces are being considered once again relevant?

Hope you all have a prosperous New Year.......and the " marlinitis " doesn't get U down!

Bing is your friend

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/marlin-336-vs-1894-whats-the-difference.260930/

http://chuckhawks.com/marlin_336_444_1895.htm

What is this virus you speak of? I am there everyday and have zero problems with the site.

Some changes took place around 2006, If I recall.

The Marlin 444 is simply a 336 action. The 1895 is a larger version of the same action to handle the 45-70 with its big rim. The ejection port has a noticeable cut to clear the large rim.

Adam, at Ranger Point Precision, argues that the 366 is a bit stronger.

T.S.

Adam’s writeup:

The Marlin 1895: Myth vs Reality

I doubt the folks at Marlin foresaw in 1972 that chambering a rifle for the then 100yr old .45-70 cartridge would help spark a revival bordering on religious fervor, and ultimately kill off their king, the mighty 444. But it didn’t take hand loaders long to understand that the relatively strong 1895 (compared to the Springfield “trap door”) could launch some very potent loads, and the combination has thrived in the world of big/dangerous game hunting ever since. Its prowess is legendary.


The trouble with legend is that it begins to shroud reality in myth. I have, on countless occasions, fielded this question; “Why don’t you guys chamber such and such cartridge in the 1895? I mean, it’s the strongest Marlin action, isn’t it?”


So I want to address it, because this assumption is flat out false. Sorry to disappoint, if you’re one of those under the spell. This misconception seems partially rooted in the idea that the 1895 is unique among its lesser peers, and this is rooted in a misunderstanding of Marlin’s model nomenclature.


It’s important to recognize that Marlin currently only makes two centerfire rifle platforms: the first is the small format 1894, which fires revolver cartridges and always has 1894 in the model designation. The second is the large format platform which fires rifle cartridges and has been known by several model designations, among them 336, 444, and 1895. These are all the same receiver.


By this I mean they share the same critical dimensions and use the same steel. Yes, the 444 and 1895 differ from the 336, but only because they have been modified to pass fatter cartridges. In the case of the 444 (sadly no longer produced) the only modification to the receiver itself was a slight widening of the forward half of the ejection port. The rifle uses other unique parts (like a heavier barrel and bulged mag tube) but otherwise it is a 336 in every spec that counts.


The 1895 is a more heavily modified 336 action, but not in any way that increases strength. In fact, the 1895 is the weakest 336 action made, because a significant amount of material has to be removed to accommodate the .45-70 cartridge.


To fit the .45-70 cartridge (with its incredible pie plate rim) into a 336 action, Marlin had to do three things: 1) fit a larger diameter mag tube, which necessitated a bigger hole just south of the barrel junction, significantly lowering hoop strength; 2) remove material from the internal receiver ribs (just below the bolt) to allow passage of the wider cartridge, which reduces tensile strength between breech and locking bolt, and 3) substantially widen the ejection port along its entire length, which further reduces the tensile strength of the receiver between breech and locking bolt.


But wait, there’s more: while the strength of the base 336 is limited primarily by its bolt thrust capacity, the 1895 is limited by another factor as well—chamber strength. With its half inch diameter case body, the .45-70 has chamber walls a mere .1” thick, mated to a receiver with lowered hoop strength. While this arrangement is perfectly adequate for the mild .45-70 factory loads for which it was designed, the 1895 should not be seen as tank-like and indestructible, for it is not. I have it on good authority that more than a few have been destroyed by over-zealous hand loaders.


If you’re one of those guys who likes to hot-rod your hand loads, then look to the 444 as a stronger big bore alternative. Better yet, pick up a lightly used 1895M (450 Marlin) and go nuts. The poor, dejected, misunderstood 1895M was Marlin’s brilliant attempt to satisfy .45-70 hot-rodders with something stronger, safer, and more powerful. It was all of those things, but hardly anyone got it. If you like to launch .458” pills at shoulder crushing velocities, maybe you should.

AD

have had both calibers.........

if I were to only have one.....

it would be the 45-70......my '01 GS was my fav.......

but has now moved to AZ with my SIL....

I have several of both but my favorites are my 444s.

1895 action and 336/444 action are the same size. Just the 1895 has more metal removed and therefore is weaker

The 444 is where its at.

I agree.

T.S.

Wait a minute, the 444 sucks. If you have one PM me and I’ll take it off your hands.

I’m hearing crickets JL.

That’s them JL.

Hope all is well down there Sir

Yes sir JL. Living the dream. Working hard enough to support the half that doesn’t.

I had both, but sold the .444. It was more of a preference for the platform than the cartridge. My .45-70 is a Guide gun, the .444 was a 22 inch version.

444's are gold right now. Actually I think they're worth more than gold.

Wow. What a change. I used to see .444’s by the truck load in used gun racks on the east coast. They couldn’t give them away. 😂😅. Now they are the thing to have. Who would have thought. Could have bought lots cheap.

Remington cut the 444 from the lineup when they took Marlin over. Since then they bring a mint.

I actually have a "Remlin" 444 circa 2011 with beautiful wood and a tack driver to boot!

I have no idea how a remlin got out the door with wood like that!

Me either. I got it cheap too. The previous owner had feed issues and sent it back to the factory for repairs. Apparently the owner lost interest after that and posted it for sale. The rifle languished in the classifieds without a single hit for about two weeks so I made a modest offer. The seller accepted. I have since had the action smoothed and the trigger set at a crisp 3 lbs.

The checkering on the buttstock appears to be cut. The theory among the guys at Marlin Owners is that the wood was left over from previous manufacture and just assembled by Remington. In essence, I may have JM wood. LOL


This rifle shares space with seven other 444s. I am a 444 fan. :-)

T.S.

I have a Remlin Side S/N 444 too with nice wood and ballard rifling marked with astrix. Mine had feed issues too and went to the repair center. They failed at fixing it so I fixed it myself.

That's pretty cool. I always preferred the 45-70 and 450M. Only since 444 prices skyrocketed have I decided I need one.

I was looking for a 444 and couldn't find one. I did find an 1895 and called it good enough. Eventually I found a 444. Now that I have them both I found out I was right in the first place and prefer the 444. Flatter trajectory and less recoil. The trajectory is nearly identical to a .30-30, but hits nearly as hard as a .45-70 with less recoil. A real Goldilocks.

Now you convinced me that I do need a 444...

Get you one Mike! You won't regret it. The 444 is easy to handload too! - T.S.

Very true , easiest cartridge I've ever loaded for.

I'm trying to wait for Marlin to reintroduce it. They promise it every year.

Don't pass up a used JM if it's priced right.

I won't. But they never seem to be anymore.

Here is a question for you 444 guys.i just bought a jm Marlin in 444 but hasn't gotten in my hands yet.wondering since this is my first Marlin lever gun, what scope would you guys put on it.im hunting deer in fairly heavy cover in pa.i have other magnum and 257 Bob rifles, but got the 444 itch.what you say?longest shot in open country is 200 yards.thanks in advance.

I have a 444. I put a 1x3 weaver new scope on it. Perfection

Wish I'd picked up a few of them before they got discontinued. A pox be upon the management of Vista Outdoor.


I don't think there's much difference in scope requirement over the standard 336 discussed in this thread Scope for new 336 30-30 other than perhaps one might want to ensure his final selection has ample eye relief for heavier loads.

I tend to agree with SLDUCK. The slimmer scopes with moderate magnification, long eye relief and good FOV like the Weaver V 1-3 or the Leupold 1.5-5 are good choices. Some might want a 32 mm or larger objective for the lowest light conditions though. Judgment call.

I want them all, Winchesters, Marlins, etc. My name is Steve, I'm a gunaholic!!!

I got a Mod 94 Win. in .44 mag. and .356 Win. and a Mirkou Mod. 71 in .348 Ackley Improved and a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. I only hunt Alaska and feel bigger bullets are better for the most part and rarely shoot past 200 yards. That .444 Marlin with 300 grain bullets looks like a good one to me. Bad as I want one at 70 I don't see myself using all the guns I have. I have long felt an old style lever gun in .35 caliber tossing 225 to 250 grain bullets at 35 Whelen velocities would be a the best for hunting North America. Which is why I added a .348 Ackley Improved to my meager arsenal.

Truth be told all of my lever guns except for the .44 mag. will kill Alaska's game at 200 yards all day long, but a .348 Ackley and 45-70 just kills them deader. So would the 444 Marlin with the right load. If ya want a big thumper then grab one, my 45-70 is a comfort to me when messing around in the woods up here. If I was only hunting state side I would pass on a 45-70 and grab a .444 Marlin.

Winchester has it's own charisma and the Mod. 94's are sleek light weight easy packing power houses, but when it comes to ease of maintenance the Marlin wins hands down. Our biggest obstacle is the bullet makers cater to the long range guys. None of them are staying late at the shop in an effort to make us better flat nosed bullets bullets and our chosen calibers are only as good as their available bullets.

The Weaver 1-3 is just about purfect

I finally got a Ballard 444 p. Haven't shot it yet!

Excited!

Mine wears a Leupold VX3 2.5 - 8 x 36. Great glass for short or long shots.

i ran the fixed 4 power on mine till my eyes preferred the 6x to me if eye are decent nothing beats a fixed 4 power for woods hunting my shots are normally 100 yards up-to 130

Isn't the pressure against the bolt face on the .45-70 much less than the pressure of the .444?

I have a JM 45-70, the GBL model.

I kind of shyed away from the 444 because of the slow twist (1/38 I believe it was) kind of topping out at 265gr or so bullets.

But I think in the later production the barrels were set up with Ballard rifling, at 1/20 twist. I would like to have one of those.

I like the 45-70 plenty, but there are enough examples of them blowing up, that I never lean on it pressure wise. The chamber area receiver are hollowed out pretty good....a little too good in my opinion, but it keeps the weight down.

The 444 has significantly more metal in that critical area.

I don't hot rod mine either. If I want something going fast, I've got other rifles to do it. My 18.5" barrel lever gun is for big-n-slow in the woods.

You're exactly right

My 2 444P's have ballard rifling. I shoot mainly 300 gr bullets(my cast) and jacketed. It is my go to deer gun for the woods and swamps. The one I hunt with wears a 3x10x50 Meopta scope. Since our hunting times are 1 hr before sunrise to 1 hr after sunset. The other just sleeps in the safe as a never needed back up. My 310 gr cast bullet crono's out of my 444P at 1908 fps avg.
My 45/70 is a Marlin 1895 LTD-111 with an 18" barrel. It's a range toy with 400 gr cast bullets. And kicks like @!@$@!!!!!~!

The SAAMI max for the .45-70 is much lower than for the .444, due to the fact that the .45-70 is a carryover from the black powder era.

If loaded to the same pressure, bolt thrust will be higher with the .45-70 due to the larger diameter of the case head/rim area.

I personally don't see the need to go past 35.5 Kpsi with the .45-70. If I need a faster large diameter, heavy bullet, I go with a bigger case. If I need flatter trajectory, I go with a better platform for that. Recoil becomes a factor, too.

The .45-70 is very good at killing big animals at shorter ranges, and the .444 with 300 grain or heavier bullets is a monster, too. There ain't much I can't kill with a .45-70 loaded with 425 grain LBT hardcasts at 1650 to 1700 fps. Same with a .444 and the proper bullets.

See article below where Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets does heavy bullet load work using a 444P with 1:20 Ballard rifling and a 444S with 1:38 Micro-Groove rifling.

.444 Marlin Versatile Big-Bore Part III :: By Marshall Stanton - via Wayback Machine

I have been shooting a Marlin 45-70 and 400 grain bullets over a case full of H322 for over 25 years. I don't go over what the book says. I read the Marlin 1895 had to have metal removed to accommodate the 45-70 rim, so it is a weaker action then other Marlins. Makes sense to me. Following modern 45-70 load data gives one a load that is powerful enough for big bears and other big critters. It is a .458 bullet coming from a smaller case then a .458 Winchester, which makes it a shorter range cartridge for killing big stuff.

I can't imagine a well constructed 280 to 300 grain .444 bullet not taking care of any thing in North America.