Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting info on equipment wanted

My experience with casting bullets is limited to a very few calibers and Lee's cookie cutter lube trays. I have a few Lyman moulds (singles), but I have loaded many cast bullets from other sources. Now I'd like to get into casting big time for most of my calibers. Any info on the following questions would be greatly appreciated.
1. What are the best moulds? Lee's is less expensive--but what is the draw-back, if any, of using aluminum moulds.
2. I intend to use hard lubes (less mess)--what is the best equipment for the sizer/lubricater/heater?
3. Which melting pot is best and why.
4. Any other information that may be helpful.
Thanks for your help. Steve

Not being a big time bullet caster but seeing If I was to become one the first thing I would want would be a BIG melting pot with a bottom pour!

There are several about that are good. I just know from my own single cavity mould that the little pot I have I wish was bigger.

I would look at getting the steel moulds with up to 4 cavity but no bigger. (my opinion) I think this would be my optimal weight/production mould. Once hot it would be easy to cast a whole bunch! I have several Lee moulds and one steel one. I link my steel one better, but the lee ones are good too.

for the rest of your questions? Sorry cannot comment, don't know that much.

I use a Lymon furnace that has botttom pour but I use a laddle for better control of the melted lead. ( I can't see under the pot very well) I now use only iron moulds after using the Lee aluminum moulds for many years when I first got started in casting. I got OK bullets with the Lee but none of the lube grooves were sharp shouldered and the more I read seemed to indicate that sharp shouldered lube grooves were necessary to hold the lube in the grooves. I can't verify that but all in all I am most in favor of iron moulds. I do know that the iron moulds last longer without galling from the sprue cut-off plate.

My favorite mould is a Saeco for a 30 caliber, gas checked, RG4 bullet. The mould is relatively heavy so it retains heat well. I believe it is a two cavity mould. It is also of top notch quality. I wouldn't do well casting with a 4 cavity mould as I have enough trouble getting good bullets with a two cavity one.

The way it is now, even with a two cavity mould, I often have a civity either not filled out or else leaving wrinkles on bullets. I suppose I need to increase my furnace temp. That should remedy that problem. Additional heat causes the mould to get so hot that I then have to wait what seems like 30 seconds or more before I can open the mould and get bullets that have set up enough and are hard enough without tearing the spru as I cut the spru off.

I flux about every hour, but even at that, only get about 50, what I call, "perfect" bullets. A bullet that is well filled out, no voids and weighs within .3 grains either plus of minus of the mean of the batch is what I call perfect. I use either LYman or RCBS mould lube. If you get lube that is too stiff, it will require greater pressure to inject into the lube grooves. Adding a little heat by way of a lamp may soften it up though.

I cast for 30 caliber rifle, 358 rifle and pistol, 429 pistol,375 rifle.

Rolly, blammer...
Thanks for the info. currently I cast for .30, .38, and .44 cal but plan to cast for just about everything in the near future, especially the more popular black powder rounds like the ..25-35, .32-40 and .38-55. I have both singles and doubles and have used 4-cavity(don't like them--too many rejects). A friend here in town suggested getting a commercial casting unit as they are sometimes available used. He commercially casts LBT and cowboy action type bullets. I am particularly interested in how others lube cast bullets using hard lube and heated lubers--what equipment is available? Steve

Molds - I have four LBT molds, a couple each of Lyman and RCBS. No preference between aluminum and iron. The LBT's are aluminum but the features built into them and the care with which they were made are what make them superior. They are unfortunately no longer made. I'd rate the RCBS over the Lyman in quality but that's just a real subjective viewpoint and I can't back it up with any empirical data. Bullets from one shoot as good as bullets from another, the firearm in which they are shot seems to be the determining factor.

As to which furnace is best - I don't know. Have had a Lyman 10 pound pot and a Lee production pot. The Lyman was a good furnace but 10 pounds of alloy gets used up fairly quickly when molding heavier bullets. The Lee was okay, but not easy to control the alloy temperature. I currently have the RCBS 20 pound bottom pour furnace and I like it just fine.

However, I don't use the bottom pour feature at all. I switched to using a dipper and will not go back to the bottom pour method.

Why the dip method? Veral Smith of LBT, bless his incarcerated heart, convinced me of that. You get a slightly slower production rate but a far lower rejection rate, hence your overall rate is better.

The main secret that I can see for a lower rejection rate is to keep pouring that lead even after the cavities fill up. Let the excess run over the mold and back into the pot, you can't do that easily with a bottom pour unless you put something below it to collect the overflow and then you waste time having to put that lead back in the pot, getting it back up to temperature, etc.

You want to keep a good head of hot lead over that bullet base, this keeps the lead inside hot until it has time to fill in all the grooves. How long I cannot say, just "a few seconds after the cavities fill up". More an art than a science, you just have to get a feel for it. The LBT molds have a raised lip around the sprue holes to provide for a good excess of lead, this "dam" also helped direct the overflow in one direction to control it. I think H&G molds have a groove in the sprue plate which accomplishes much the same thing. A very valuable feature, that. But even on Lyman or RCBS flat top molds you can hold it slightly downward and let the overflow from the 2nd or 4th cavity - that would normally be the one nearest you if you are tipping it away from you - let the overflow from that last one wash over the previously filled cavities. After a couple of seconds hold the mold level and try to get a buildup of lead as high as you can. Easier said than done, believe me, but the technique gets automatic after just a little practice.

Remember, you want to keep as much hot lead as possible over that bullet base.

If you keep your alloy clean then with this method I don't even weigh my bullets. When I open the mold I just look at the base. If it is well filled in then it goes on the towel, there it gets a real quick visual look-see to make sure there are no glaring flaws. Then I lube'em, load'em and shoot'em.

According to Veral again, he was my casting guru, the Lyman lubrisizer is junk, the RCBS is good, the Saeco is better and the Star is the ne plus ulta. Okay - someone correct me here if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the Star uses it's own expensive and hard to find dies while I know the RCBS will use RCBS or Lyman sizing dies. I forget if the Saeco uses it's own dies or can use an RCBS or Lyman as well.

I use the RCBS lubrisizer and it works just fine for me. Actually, I use Lee sizing dies and then use the RCBS sizer to just lube the bullets. The bottom feed Lee dies fit into my loading press which has a LOT more leverage than the lubrisizer. The bullets get sized there. Then I run them through the lubrisizer to apply the lube. More work and maybe not really necessary but depending on how much you need to size the bullet that works best for me.

I like this because you can size those bullets pretty quickly and the plastic reservoir holds your bullets. The higher leverage of the loading press makes the sizing go easier. And for the LBT types at least - they all have a flat nose and a tapering design to the first driving band, that bottom feed Lee die sizes them MUCH straighter than the top feed RCBS or Lyman dies in the lubrisizer. Don't know if there is a difference with the RCBS and Lyman designs but I've had problems off and on with top punches and misaligned bullets in the lubrisizer, and what the heck, the Lee dies keep all designs - RN, SWC, whatever, perfectly straight. The work off of the flat bullet base and let the bullet center itself in the die. They work so well that I use the "size'em with Lee and lube'em with RCBS" method for all my bullets. Like I said, more work, but the groups from my firearms seem to justify it. Another tip - I keep a teeny bit of lube on my thumb and index fingertip of the hand handling the bullets, that gooey Lee stuff works fine. This gets just a teeny, and I mean miniscule, amount of lube on the bullets before going through the Lee die. This lubes the inside of the die and reduces the effort to size the bullets even further.

For a sizer heater I use Midway's heater. It is a base plate that goes under your lubrisizer and heats the lube reservoir. You have to play with the setting some to get the lube warm enough to flow but not so thin that it flows too easily. Again, more art than science but you'll learn the setting you want pretty quickly.

I have 4 1/2 sticks of LBT blue left so sorry, I can't help you determine which hard lube is best. Use Google or some other search engine and search for "Apache Blue lube". Paco Kelly of sixgunner.com seems to like it a lot and tells why. As far as I know it is very similar to LBT Blue in composition, but that would be pure speculation as I don't know what-all is in the LBT lube.

Hope this is helpful and not too confusing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The molds I use are Lyman, RCBS, Rapine, Saeco, Hensley&Gibbs and NEI. The Rapine molds are aluminum and the one NEI I have is brass, the others are iron/steel. I have yet to have a bad mold. Some molds cast good bullets from the beginning and others may need some fine tuning before they start casting good bullets. Each mold is an individual unto itself. Some molds may need the cavities polished and some may not. Some may need the sprue plate hole opened up some and others may not. On any mold you get check the cavity for burrs, check the sprue plate for burrs, make sure the sprue is flat and that it swings freely of it's own weight.
The brass and alunimum molds start casting good bullets right away because they heat up so much faster than the iron/steel molds. The down side is that I may have to stop and let the brass or aluminum molds cool down. I almost never have to stop and let the iron/steel molds cool down.
I really like Rapine molds for two reasons: they are well made and they make some hard to find designs. For example, they make a hollow base mold for the .41 Colt. No one else does to my knowledge.
The lead pots I have are a Lyman 20# bottom pour, a Magma Master Caster 40# and a Rapine 20#. I like ladle casting so I use the Rapine pot the most. It is all stainless steel inside and out. The temperature is very easy to control on this pot. If I were to do it all over again with only one lead pot it would be the Rapine. It is not cheap but it was designed to last a couple of lifetimes.
I use both the Lyman #450 and RCBS sizer and like them both. I have heard many good things about the Star sizer but I have never had the chance to use one. By many it is considered the top sizer.
All of the information given to you by Jim in Idaho is excellent. He learned from the best, Veral Smith. Then only one that may have known more about cast bullets was Harry Pope.

Steve95: You asked about hard bullet lubes. They have lots of advantages both in the field and if you're shipping cross country. Higher melting point is at least as important as hardness. The best lubes I've found are: ZAMBINI for pistol bullets, and HVR for high velocity rifle bullets. Both are made by Rooster Labs (www.roosterlabs.com). Melting point is 220 degrees, but moderate heat softens them so they flow smoothly through the lubesizer and bond well to the bullet. A heater with an adjustable thermostat is the best approach. I got mine from Midway twenty years ago. (www.midwayusa.com). Good luck.

It has been a couple of years now since I asked the original questions and every reply has been helpful. I've found a lightly-used heated lubrisizer similar to the Magma, with indexer and feed tube and an air cylinder for the lube feed. It takes the standard dies. I have not had time to use it yet, but it looks like it will do the job. It even came with several sticks of hard lube and one .429 die. I am going to modify the punch holder to take fine-thread bolts (from the current set-screw) so I can make my own punches out of hard bolts and make it easier to adjust.
Lately I've been collecting lead--mostly ww--and melting them down into 1lb ingots. After over a ton of lead I've some further questions.
1. What is flux for? I've heard opinions ranging from it helps clean up the lead to it keeps the alloy (tin) from separating. I have not been using it to cast ingots.
2. How does flux do what ever it is supposed to do? It can't be 'mixing' with the lead since flux is much lighter than the metal making only the very top surface the only part of the matal to come in contact with the flux.
3. What is the best flux? I'v heard everything from bees wax to canning or candle wax to crayons, sawdust, pine pitch, crushed walnut shells, tar, and even diesel fuel.

Thanks, again for all the replies. Steve

Check this out, it may be helpful Copied froms somewhere else...


The "Simple" Act of Fluxing
by Glen E. Fryxell


Questions that often get asked by bullet casters just getting started are, "What's the best flux to use?", "How much flux should I use?", and "How often should I flux the pot?".

The source of this confusion is easy to find; just about everything that can burn, smoke or raise a stink has been reported at one point or another as a flux for bullet metal, usually with varied claims of success.

Some of the more commonly recommended materials are paraffin, beeswax, bullet lube, oiled sawdust, and rosin, as well as a variety of commercially available formulations. Heck, I've even seen used motor oil recommended to flux bullet metal (this just can't be a good way to make points with one's Better Half, or even the neighbors!). About the only thing I haven't seen recommended is tire rubber, but it wouldn't surprise me if somebody has tried it!

Let's look at what a flux is expected to do, and how some of the different fluxes work. When we melt a pot of bullet metal, we have a high temperature pool of liquid metal in contact with the air. The oxygen in the air slowly oxidizes the metal at the interface; the hotter the metal, the faster this oxidation takes place. Since this is a heated liquid pool, convection leads to rapid turnover at the surface of the liquid, and the more easily oxidized components of the melt are preferentially oxidized as this mixing takes place. The resulting oxides are almost always insoluble in the molten alloy, so they tend to separate and form a separate phase. In the case of bullet casting alloys, tin is more readily oxidized than is lead, so the tin oxide forms a "skin" across the surface of the melt.

Some of the other metals that may be present as minor impurities are even easier to oxidize, and "follow" the tin up into the "skin" (lead is pretty dense stuff and most all of these oxides are of lower density, so they float).

What we want a flux to do is to remove those impurities that affect the surface tension of the alloy and cause problems during casting (most notable here are things like calcium, aluminum, zinc and copper). In addition, we want to remove any wettable particulate matter that might go on to form inclusions in our bullets. Since tin is so valuable to the bullet caster, it would be helpful if we could slow down, or even reverse its oxidation. These are the things that we ask a flux to do.

Some folks seem to think that if they sprinkle some "magic powder" on the top of their lead pot and it pops and fizzles, smokes and stinks, then presumably all of these things are being accomplished. T'aint necessarily so. While it may be fun to put on a wizard's cap and play modern alchemist for a little while, that doesn't automatically force the chemistry to conform to the wizard's wishes.

Now that we know what we want a flux to do, let's look at how some of the different fluxes work.

Waxes, greases, oils and other hydrocarbon fluxes all serve as a sacrificial reductant and reduce the tin oxide back to the metallic state, returning it to the molten alloy, where it can still do the caster some good (reduction is the reverse of oxidation). In addition, if used in sufficient quantity to form a pool across the entire surface of the alloy (usually about 1/4" deep), then the molten wax forms a barrier to prevent oxygen from re-oxidizing the tin during the course of the casting session.

Parafin and beeswax are both equally effective in doing this (but paraffin is much cheaper, I prefer to save the beeswax for bullet lube, where its flow properties provide major advantages over paraffin). Using paraffin as a bullet flux has the advantage of being cheap and widely available in most grocery stores, but it doesn't necessarily remove detrimental impurities, like calcium, aluminum, copper and zinc.

Some of the commercial bullet fluxes are fomulations that have the advantage of generating virtually no smoke or odor (in contrast to the waxes just discussed). These formulations are commonly based on borax, or other boric acid derivatives. The way these commercial fluxes work is to combine with the oxidized components of the alloy (including any oxidized tin) and form an insoluble molten borate glass, which collects on top of the melt as a dark molten crust. This process is smoke-free and cleans the alloy very effectively, but the dark molten crust must be removed to prevent inclusions in the bullets. Unfortunately, any oxidized tin is also removed in this process. Relatively little of these borate-based fluxes is needed to effectively clean up bullet metal (only about half a teaspoon is needed for a 10 lb pot), but too much can cause problems by generating excessive amounts of this molasses-like glass that sticks to the ladle and lead-pot, and can cause inclusions if not removed.

Sawdust is another material that has been used as a flux for bullet metal, and it has the advantages of both the previous classes of bullet fluxes (it has often been employed in conjunction with oil, but all that does is make fluxing smokier and smellier). Sawdust is also a sacrificial reductant that reduces tin, thereby returning it to the melt (again, reduction is the opposite of oxidation). It also has many building blocks (lignins, tannins, gallates, etc.) that bind to oxidized metals. Lead, tin and antimony are fairly easy to reduce back to the metallic state, others are not so easy.

Of particular interest to the bullet caster are calcium, aluminum and zinc -- all of which are difficult to reduce and all of which cause casting problems if present in any significant amount (they muck up the surface tension of the alloy and prevent the alloy from filling out the mould properly). As the sawdust chars, it can be thought of as a kind of activated carbon. Both the lignins of the original sawdust and the oxygenated sites of the activated carbon are very effective at binding metal ions like calcium, aluminum and zinc. Thus, the advantage of sawdust is that it does both jobs, returning the tin to the melt and removing the problematic impurities. Sawdust has the added benefit of being free.

I generally use walnut sawdust, left over from my grip-making activities. Different types of wood are known to give rise to grades of activated carbon with different activities, but whether or not this would make any difference to the bullet caster I don't know (doubtful, any sawdust should work just as well, and some, like cedar, redwood and pine smell awful purty!). A heaping tablespoon is just about right for a 10 lb pot, stirred in thoroughly to begin with and then left in place. Halfway through the pot, the lead-pot is stirred again, this time the activated carbon (dross) is removed. By leaving the charred sawdust on the melt for the first half or so of the casting session, a barrier is formed to slow down the oxidation of the tin, and by removing the charred dross before reaching the bottom, the sequestered impurities are removed before they can sneak through the bottom-pour spout and possibly cause inclusions.

Thanks, blammer. Glen's article is exactly what I'm looking for. And it all sounds reasonable. I work with wood quite often and can have a variety of saw dusts at my disposal so I can see some playing I need to do. Only one problem now. What do I do with the twenty or so pringle cans full of various waxes I've been collecting for flux now?????? Steve

me personally I just use some old candle wax,

put it on the hot lead, it melts, i set a match to it, it burns off, and goes out, I'm done.

of course I use a dipper from the top.

after fluxing I get a good shiney surface, to start getting lead out with my dipper to start casting.

I don't worry too much about the rest.

Well, I ordered two dies and top punches for my Star lubrisizer today. I've had the Star for over a year but been to busy to start casting. Expect a bunch of newbie questions in the weeks to follow. I'll be casting LBT gaschecked bullets, and already have several sticks of LBT Blue, so hopefully I have decent success w/o too much frustration. I've got a Bill Ferguson furnace, and it sounds like Apollo 13, but is great for melting down buckets of wheel weights. For actual casting, I'd like a quiet electric setup, but want a large capacity pot. I've considered an electric heatplate under my pot (forgot how big it's rated @ but it's about 2qts), and it seems like about the right size for casting lots of 300gr bullets w/o having to stop and add more lead. Stay tuned.
222

222 Rem, I lve in the same neck of the woods as old Ferguson, and he's quite a character.

He's got a nice electric pot , has them built / shipped ,on a one -off basis....have'nt tried one.....I'm runnin' a Lyman Mag Dipper....It's oK, but wish I'd gotten one in 220V, instead of 110.

Usually, I cast in the 550 gr, per bullet range, and that goes through a lot of alloy, QUICK.

Never had much luck with electric hot plates, they're really slow.

Enjoy, GTC

Thanks for the heads-up on the hotplates. I won't bother then. I like my half-gallon cast iron pot, but would appreciate more tranquility than the gas furnace provides, while I perfect the art of casting. Do you know the capacity of Ferguson's electric pot, and the ballpark price?
222

25Lb. Sorry, I don't have the price, but remember it being reasonable.....the wizard, Ferguson, is out of town for a few days......lemme scout on this, get back to you ASAP.

GTC

Thanks GTC. My dies and punches came today, BUT the punches were not done as instructed so they're going back. Veral ideal punch for gaschecked bullets is 10K undersize, and flate, with a 1/32 high and wide ring around the outside circumference. Mine came with a .045" ring about .095" deep in a dish shape like a roundnose would need for a seating die. I have no idea how my instructions got that screwed up. Anyway, another week's wait.

222

Hey, Bill's back.......I inquired 'bout the price of one of those furnaces.....$175 + $25.00 S&H.

Hope this is of some help.

Work Safe, GTC

Thanks Crossfire.
I think my cast iron pot is 40#. 25# will seem pretty small won't it? Is the melt time really that bad with 110V? I'd have to wire my house for 220V, and then not be able to use it when on vacation unless they had 220V also. You've seen the pot that Bill sells. What does it have going for it that the Lyman Mag20 dip model doesn't (other than five more #s?)
Thanks in advance. 222

I think I'm going to try a propane single burner camp stove. I've seen some pretty simple cast iron stoves, and I think they'll be quiet enough for now. I've spent enought on equipment so far, that a $200 pot should probably wait. This will allow me to use my 40lb pot, and really "go to town" while casting 300gr bullets. I may look for a double burner also, so that I could start melting on one burner while casting on the other, and thus cut down on the stand around time. I'll let you know how it goes.

222

Good plan, a " running re-charge".......with already molten alloy, can sure pick up the pace.

When I'm in the right mood, I like to cast in substantial quantity, and get way ahead. Have, at times, used 2 electric pots, so's I could get decent production values, for my time.

Would suspect that you've got one of those LP gas fired "plumber's furnaces"......and would have to agree, the noise level can be hair raising.

I have'nt gotten to run one of these new rigs,yet. Ken Ewing has a write up on 'em, in this month's ( Sept. issue) Single Shot exchange........as I expected , he calls out better insulation, faster recovery rates, and ,to me most important, a fine tunable thermostatic control.

Once I've had a shot ,at running one, I'll post my honest opinion.

If were to be real critical about my Magdipper 20# rig (which I Ain't) , it would be:

** As level drops, somewhere's about halfway down,in usable capacity, the temperature can take off, and climb....fast. So, constaant thermo-adjustments, and ' tweaks, are required..........to keep melt stable.

** recovery time is a bit slow, after a recharge.....however, if I stack ingots all around the periphery of the pot, and get some pre-heat into 'em.....it's not that big a deal.

Shoot Well, and , shoot often, GTC