Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting How fast to make un-quenched WW expand?

Hello all:

So, can anybody shed some light on how fast I will have to push bullets cast of un-quenched wheel weights to get them to expand?

With joy in my heart and spring in my step I cast up a mess of Lee Tumble Lube 158 grain 2R ogive bullets. I shot them through my .357 behind 7 grains of Unique (measured 1150fps-to-1215fps)....and nothing happened when shot into water filled milk jugs. I will repeat the experiment but have little hope of a better outcome. Bummer!

Part of my mental image is that blunter bullets are more likely to expand than pointy bullets. I am hankering to get a tumble-lube wad cutter (148 grains). Can any of you guys tell me if 1250fps will make that sucker mushroom? If not 1250fps, then how fast?

-Joe

Unless you use a hollowpoint, or shoot them into something harder, I doubt you'll see much upset from cast unquenched wheelweights at pistol velocities. I think you'll need to drive them at rifle velocities 1800-2000 fps to see them upset.

That's ok, as a decent meplat will make a good wound channel. If glacial silt (clay like consistancy) is any indication of a wound channle, my 480 @ 1200 fps produced a very nice woundchannel, the entrance would pretty much fit a soda can, and the channel reduced in dia after a depth of some 8". I'd expect you to see something similar on a smaller scale.

Thanks!

OK, next dumb question....I have been messing around with simply shooting the TL 2R ogive backazzwards to make it look like a wad-cutter. Are there any downsides? I believe that I will have less obduration because not all the mass is forward of the bore-to-bullet contact.

The only downside I can see is possible leading, as a nice square base seems to seal best. Also wadcutters tend to loose accuracy after 50 yds or so, depending on how fast you launch them.

I have that mold and find the bullet is quite accurate loaded in the conventual method.

I shoot a 358 keith style semi wad cutter double lube bands and gas checked with 14 grains of 2400 and its a doozy!

I guess it depends what you intend to shoot with them and why you feel you need expansion. They probably won�t expand much in wood, and you�ve already discovered water won�t work, but soft dirt or sand may get you what you�re looking for. Or do like 458 Lott said and launch them at rifle velocities.

I have always tried to recover bullets, and found 240 gr. air cooled ww SWC�s at about 1,200 fps from a 44 mushroomed nicely, make that picture perfect, in prairie dog mounds.

I shot a big doe mule deer with one a number of years back. She was facing me at about 60 yards. The bullet went through her full length including the left rear ham, lodging under the hide. Never hit a bone, and the bullet looked like it was swelled up, but no "mushroom" type expansion. I wish I had mic'd it, and have since lost it, as it would have been interesting to see how much it actually expanded. Enough to see, but nothing to speak of. It looked like I could have re-loaded it. It was the only cast bullet I ever recovered from an animal so far. Dense mud or clay has done about the same.

The same bullets recovered from prairie dog mounds mushroomed nicely as mentioned. I guess that just goes to show you how tough prairie dog mounds are.

If you intend to hunt with your 357, I wouldn't shoot anything larger than small game with round nosed cast bullets. You won't get any expansion unless you hit a bone, and then it won't really be expansion so much as it will be deformation.

Hope this helps.

David

What do you wish to shoot that requires an expanding bullet? Cast bullets kill best by cutting full diameter holes through game. A roundnose bullet won't do this. Cast bullets will not reliably expand in game unless cast so soft that penetration is likely to be compromised. My .357 deer load is a 180 gr LBT WFN cast hard, about 18 bhn, and loaded to about 1350 fps from my 6 in. Ruger. This is a heavy load, but my revolver performs very well at this level. At the short ranges I hunt at, under 50 yards, I've come to expect complete penetration.

lots of weight and sectional density and a wide melplat in relation to bore size,and at least a 358. dia. will get results but to a great extent the larger and heavier the bullet, the better the results once your exceeding about 1250-1350 fps
bullets like this cast from wheel wheights HAMMER game if launched at those velocities are reasonable open sight handgun ranges (under 100 yards)

Part of your problem appears to be your bullets nose. Try a bullet like the Lyman #358156, as roughly 160 gr. semi-wadcutter. Weight depends on your alloy. One of the loads I shoot with that bullet cast from my alloy which is a bit harder than wheel weights (14 BHN vs 10 to 12 BHN for WW)is 5.4 gr. of Unique from a .357 mag. in magnum brass.The load is a special one worked up to use for demontration purposes during the Hunter Education range day and is part of several firearm demonstrations. The bullet is shot into a milk jug filled with damp sand. The bullet does not penetrate all the way through. Then, an arrow is shot into the same jug which of course zips through like a hot knife through butter. Recovered bullets have always mushroomed to some degree with average expansion being about 15 to 20 percent greater than the bullet's original diameter. Loading the same bullet to about 1250 FPS and is sometimes goes clean through the jug which is not what we want to happen. If you want more expansion, you might try diluteing about ten pounds of wheel weights by adding about a pound of pure lead. The will soften thing up a bit and yet should still be hard enough to not lead too badly, if at all.
Paul B.

lead bullets very seldom expand, a large flat nose like the other guys described is what you want.
A 45-70 cuts a 1/2 hole going in and the energy is what does more damage then expansion.

Way back in black powder days the one sure fire way to increase wounding power was to increase bullet diameter, coming out the barrel.
Like the old story of the eastern reporter asking the cowboy why he used a 45 Colt. "Real simple, Pilgrim, they don't make a 46 Colt."
For shooting things that bleed 40 caliber and above, seem to let the most air in.
Jim

This is a 200 gr Flat Point .357 bullet loaded in a 357 mag case. I shot this out of my win 94 with 24" tube, going fast... (forget the velocity now...)

It punched through 8 one gallon jugs of water, set back to back at a distance of 20 yards.

Get a wide flat point, you'll like it better.

458 Lott is right. Expansion will be there at that velocity, at 50 yards it will be gone. 458 Lott is giving sound advice with leaving the bullet as a solid. If you must have expansion use pure lead in the nose or whatever length you desire. Pure lead will expand to 900fps strike velocity with a flat point. I would try the wadcutter backwards. You'll probably see a loss of accuracy because unless the ogive is perfectly round and centered, it will wobble like a crazed gyrosocpe.

guilded lead kills by expansion causing energy transfer to the animal. cast kills by design. I'll give ya a hint. Did you ever hear the saying that a full wadcutter is the most capable man stopper? You wont cast to have large frontal areas so as to push meat, and to be hard enough to do it all the way through. Preferably not so hard as to shatter.

Had my head in my heinie, but you can put your bullets in the oven at 450 for 15 min, 1/2 hour, or hour, then shut the oven off and let them cool with the oven, this will soften the whole bullet, which might cause leading. The longer you leave them in, the softer they'll get. Another trick (with flatnoses) is to set them on the noses on a flat surface with a heat source (stove top), again around 450 degrees (for whatever time/softness) and let them slowly cool with the heat turned off (just like the oven) . This will make the noses softest and the bases a little harder (since they are not directly exposed to the high heat). The goal is to heat the lead, but do not let it "slump" or melt!
This is called annealing and can only be done with arsenic/tin/antimony/lead alloys; aka wheelweight metal. An hour should get you close to pure lead and expansion will occur between 900-1000 fps STRIKING velocity! It will easily go through any deer.
P.S. DO IT WHILE YOUR WIFE or GIRLFRIEND IS GONE!
You can anneal gas checks this way too, just get them hotter.

years ago, I used a stiff load of Hercules #2400 and the Lyman #358156 bullet to kill a Black bear with a Smith & Wesson 38/44 Outdoorsman. The 38/44 cartridge was what we now call a Plus P Plus, but was the forerunner to the .357 Magnum. The bullet was probably doing 1150 FPS from the gun's 6" barrel.
Years later, I used that same bullet to kill a 250 pound hog from a 4" S&W M28 .357 Magnum.
I won't divulge the load data as by today's standards the loads are considered way too hot. I think they're just fine in the big "N" frame Smith's but I wouldn't shoot them in anything else. Well, maybe in a Ruger Blackhawk. The will shake a lesser gun loose in only a couple hundred rounds.
I would imagine that any 148 gr. wadcutter would open up at any reasonable range. Problem is, they lose velocity and accuracy quite rapidly, but within their limits, I'd bet that would give a might smack to the target, especially at close range.
Paul B.

#1 Lee has the smallest meplates imaginable in their SWC's, go with a RF if you must use a lee.
#2 IMHE a flat even base is the best for accuracy. This is why Gas checks help. A TL bullet seated backword will punch paper @ 25 ds but I would not expect good accuracy. Gianni.

It is not energy transfer that kills. It is destruction of vital tissue.

Imagine this comparison. Someone take his doubled fist and strikes another as hard as he can on top of the head.

He then clenches an icepick in his fist and repeats the blow.

The energy transferred in each instance is the same. Which is most likely to prove fatal?

Would you rather absorb 100 ft pounds of energy from a medicine ball or from a .22 LR slug?

I've been casting bullets for 53 years now, and I've never heard of this one. However, certain parts of your comment give the ingrediants needs to properly water quench a bullet.

"This is called annealing and can only be done with arsenic/tin/antimony/lead alloys; aka wheelweight metal. An hour should get you close to pure lead and expansion will occur between 900-1000 fps STRIKING velocity! It will easily go through any deer."

Not so. You have just described the main part of oven treating bullets prior to water quenching them By using the method you decribe, the bullets will just return to their original hardness.
The asiest way to get a softer bullet is to just add an amount of pure lead.
If you want to over treat bullets, Start at about 400 degees and wait about ten minutes. Raise the temperature up about 25 degrees and wait for a bit. Then, raise the heat up another 10 degrees, wait, ten more and wait until the bullets start to slump. Use your reject bullet s for the test. Then, place your previously sized but unlubed bullets on the tray at the predetermined temperature and "cook" the bullets for at least one hour minimum. At the end of the hour, or longer period if you prefer, rapidly, but carefully drop the bullets into a bucket of cold water. Room temperature is just fine. Set the bullets aside to dry for about a week while they age harden. Usually, 8BHN wheel weights will harden to around 19 to 21 on the BHN scale. After the week is over, lube them with a sizing die .001" larger than what you sized the bullet with.

"P.S. DO IT WHILE YOUR WIFE or GIRLFRIEND IS GONE!
You can anneal gas checks this way too, just get them hotter."

Better idea. Head on down to Walmart and buy a toaster oven. One with a dial that goes to at least 500 degrees or higher. I think I paids about $25 for mine. Two reasons why I suggest doing this way. One, I did some in my wifes new stove/oven and I ended up with a colored deposit on the window glass of the oven. It looks suspiciously like the coloring on a scope lens. Think about it. Those lens coating are applied by heat in an oven with the coating material being vaporized by the heat. Could the treating of the bullets be responsible for that colorization of the glass in her oven? I don't know, but why take the chance. The toaster oven works real well, can be used in the basement or garage or even outside if necessary and you can mark it like I have mine. I plan on casting till I die, so the oven has scratched on the top, "Destroy due to lead contamination."
The second reason is hell hath no fury like a woman whose stove has been misused by you. Been there and learned that. See reason #1. Buy the toaster oven.
Paul B.

Paul, and anyone else who wants me to have my head in my heinie AGAIN, but with one ridiculous caveat!
I checked out what you have just reported, scratched my head and checked my memory. You are correct. Although I learned what might have given me that impression that they WOULD soften. I generally would do this on a Sunday afternoon, test my bullets with a BHN tester a day or two later (they were usually 8 BHN), and shoot on Saturday. Sometimes I would shoot and test the loads a day later. When I looked at my info, plainly stated, "WW will revert back to their original hardness after two week ageing period", just like you said. I should have picked up on this since it takes a while for WW to air cool harden (as does every lead alloy). I don't have any "annealed" bullets, but will let them set for a while and retest them. My info says it as do you, so now I seriously doubt myself. So it goes with cast, always learning!
I generally heat treat everything I shoot, but have made pure lead softnoses and use plain WW for certain loads. Loads that are close to pure lead in hardness WILL go through any deer, especially the 255/250 standard 45 Colt load from W-W and R-P.
I am 32 and I appreciate learning from someone with more experience. When I look at the CBA journal it is discomforting not to see very many young faces! I hope to still be shooting cast when I get to be your age, and I still will be learning.
Regarding your oven idea, again your CORRECT, but I use an old electric oven, not my wife's. But everyone should heed your sage advice (heed reason 2), which is why I stated it!
So I go home, humbled, but that's what it takes to learn sometimes.
I noticed on another thread you have a lot of moulds. Any from Hensley & Gibbs? I have heard mixed things about them. I currently have used LBT, NEI, Lyman and RCBS, throw in a few Herter's and LEE's as well. Thanks Paul and Good Casting. I'm glad I joined this forum, its a good place to help and learn for those who are willing!
Nate