Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 223/556 loads using LeverEvolution Powder

I've seen a few mentions of this in passing but it doesn't ever seem to be discussed at length.
Is this a thing? Is it a good thing?

Unless I've missed it Hodgdon doesn't list LVR for any of its 223 loads.

Just from memory LVR is 1 slot slower than CFE223 on the powder burn rate chart.

Anyone want to share?

I was gearing up to try it then 2520 was in stock, so i grabbed that instead and it turns out 25.2 grains under a 77SMK does nice things.

It works. I've used it a some

I know others who use it more than a little bit.

Have a look at the MOA challange......robertham used Lever to get under a MOA with 10 shots....but just barely......grin

RP cases, CCI 41 primers, 29.5 grs of Lever under a 55 gr NBT hits 3179 fps in my 16" barreled guns.

25.5 grs of Lever hit 2671 fps in 92 degree heat with a 77 gr TMK no pressure signs. 26 grs made 2726 fps but was a little warm. 16" barrels again.

I've been running 26.0 grains with 75 HPBT (Hornady's) RP Brass, and 205's (no, haven't pierced one yet) for around 2750 on an 80 degree day.

I keep swapping stuff on my AR, so it's tough to say how great it shoots, but I did shoot two, five shot groups at 400 yards a while back. One group was 4-1/4", the other was 3-3/4". Good enough for me.

I'll likely switch over to 400's on the next batch, as I bought a boatload on them before the election.

I noticed Hogdon now has data on their site for LVR with the Valkyrie.

Never heard of it.................(grin)

Since ‘Lever and CFE223 are the same powder (‘Lever doesn’t have the magic copper eraser) , use the CFE223 data.

Laughing!...............

Has this info been verified?

Yes...I have both on the shelf.................(grin)

Well jesus H christ thanks for telling us.. LOL.. I need to call you and pick you ear on some load data/info. Are you up on the slope or back home?

Verified false. They are not the same powder.

Ummmm...no fhuqking schit?!?

LAUGHING!................

How did you verify false?

It's the internet and you can't put anything false on the internet.

I had heard the same reports years ago and ran into high pressure with CFE223 long before I met the velocity Lever was giving me. That's all I needed to see.

So you're saying use 'Lever and stay away from CFE223?

Don't believe me. Call Hodgdons.

Looking at the 30-30 Win. reloading data on the Hodgdon site you can see that the min/max loads, velocity, and pressure all vary between the two powders. This would indicate that they are not the same. Close, but not the same.

Just having the decoppering agent in one but not the other would make them different.

Unless the decoppering agent is massless, volumeless and chemically inert.

I might have said that....

And, I may be wrong about how close they are.

They ARE right next to each other on the burn rate chart.

I'm saying I got better velocity with Lever.

I'm burning up my last keg of TAC that I had and will revisit Lever again before I resupply. I actually like TAC but may switch to lever, velocity is only one factor I look at. CFE223 just didn't do as good in my guns that TAC or Lever did.

I almost picked up some 2520 today but it was $7 higher per pound than Lever, that's another factor.

Lever is definitely cheaper I can get it for $23 bucks.

TAC & Lever are generally pretty close on price.

I've been all over with trials on most of the more popular powders for 223/5.56 & I see no magic in either Lever or CFE-223 in accuracry with minimal real gains in velocity compared to 8208, V V-133/135/540, AR-Comp, 2000-MR, & TAC.

I got a great deal on some 8 lb'ers of 8208 & VV-133 so I'm using that along with a supply or AR-Comp & H4895 at least for now since I've got a lot of it.

But Powder Valley has TAC for $159 / 8lb & if you watch their specials & buy a lot of stuff at one time, you can usually get the Hazmat fee's waived or reduced. That would be hard to pass up if I were buying a lot of powder today.

MM

I saw a post where someone contacted Hodgdon and asked directly about the comparison between Lever and CFE and they confirmed they are completely different powders.

I have had a hard time sourcing Lever locally for some reason so ended up buying imr's 8208. It works really well too and I think is a great second choice. Many fans of it on Snipers Hide for the heavy bullet loads in both vanilla and ai version.

How's 8208 meter?

8208 is an extruded powder with a small grain size about like Benchmark; it meters very well. I have had good results with 8208 accuracy-wise, but was disappointed with the velocity.

I grabbed some 8208 going to give it a try, got my asc stainless mags and I can seat my bullets out to 2.310now.

NVhntr,

What load & what velocity?..........published loadings tend to be a little light, IMO.

Not my data, but here's some very recent info on ladder & accuracy testing by one of the guru's who's reputable over on SH, doing some barrel testing. Scan down to the near the last post or so by Padom on page 1, date Oct.19. His data is from a 20" barrel though.

I'm getting 2725 from an 18" barrel with 23.5 gr / 77 Nosler & SMK's/TMK's.

MM

Padom Data on 8208

. Holy crud, 2.310, the world will be a different place now. LMAO. They are good mags though for sure!

AA2520 and 77SMKs with cannelure out of my 16" ballistic advantage ops-profiled barrel on my Holland are truckin around 2740ish.

No pressure signs and there's more room in the case. 10 rounds into an inch with a 4x is plenty for me tho. Maybe I'll try more when I get back home.

You done good & that's impressive velocity from a 16" barrel as that's gotta be pretty high pressure with that powder.

How many grains?

MM

FWIW Hornady has some data online that shows what LeveRevolution and CFE223 both do in a 22 in barreled .224 Valkyrie with the 88 grain ELD. Pretty insignificant difference (2700 to 2750 fps) between the 6 fastest powders listed.
https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/load-data/224-valkyrie-88gr-eld-match-v2.pdf

It's probably at the top end of 223 data, but I really don't think it's all that hot for 5.56 data. Several other powders easily hit that velocity range in 16" barrels as well.

I don't think I've ever seen PSI data for 5.56 as that's not a SAAMI recognized round; have you seen any data on what is max pressure for 5.56?

MM

Not sure what direction you were headed with that, asc claims 2.317 oal. I tired different oal with these 75 and 77’s 2.245, 2.250, 2.255, 2.260 and the best so far is 2.260.. so I figured anything that can help them get closer to the lands will definitely help.. and going from 2.260 to 2.310 a .050 jump is pretty significant. But I guess for some a .050 is nothing significant.

You are correct. Technically, the military specs are not expressed in psi, but it works out to about 62,000 psi.

That's warm in an AR, IMO.

I don't think I push quite that hard, but really hard to know absent any way to measure.

But, obviously, 223 data is low compared to 5.56.

MM

I only go by 5.56 data since I have no way to measure pressure myself and there's been some speculation on how the gov tests theirs, I just look for pressure signs and velocity. 2740 with a 77 SMK in a 16" barrel is hotter than I've seen. In fact it's close to MK262 in an 18" barrel. Fast barrels do exist but I'm gonna have to try AA2520 for myself.

Yes, it is very difficult. But, you can get a good idea by comparing your velocity to reloading manual velocities. If your velocity is higher than shown, so is your pressure. If your barrel is "faster" it's because it generates higher pressure given the same amount of powder.

Complications arise due to barrel length differences. Say the book shows 20" and you're shooting a 16". 25fps loss/inch is just a WAG. It could be more or less depending on the load.

IMO, brass life is the big determinate. I know guys who purposely shot loads in competition that were so hot the brass was trashed after one load. I won't do that. I want at least 5 loads out of my 5.56 brass.

That's what a chrono is for; but for rule of thumb guesstimates, I use 35 FPS change per inch of barrel change, but as we all know, book loads don't always yield the same results in the real world, even in the same barrel length as was used to determine the load.

MM

The spec I was quoting is for the M193 round.

Accurate Powders post pressure data for the 5.56 and list 62,350psi as max. As an example their max loads for TAC, are mostly between 61k and 62k.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf

Yes, Western Powder's load data lists separate data for 223 and 5.56, with pressure data for both. Since they are the makers of that powder, it's the best source I know of.

I don't consider 5.56 pressure too hot for an AR, that's what they are designed to handle. That seems like an odd statement and I'm not really sure where you're coming from there.

Seems like a lot of guys here are used to going by 223 data, and think anything approaching 5.56 specs is "really hot". Never mind the millions of ARs actually shooting factory 5.56 ammo...

Also, I know from experience the typical "rule of thumb" estimates for velocity loss are essentially worthless; actual velocity loss when you cut down a barrel is so variable depending on the load that a guess of 25, 35, or 50 fps per inch is rarely correct. For example, light bullets usually lose more velocity in short barrels than heavy bullets, and those typical rules of thumb are based on medium to light bullets in hunting rifle barrel lengths. None of that is similar to what we're discussing here with 16" barrels and heavy for caliber bullets.

I compare velocity out of my 16" guns with IMI and LC M193 ammo and my loads are close in velocity which should mean close in pressure.

MK262 is the only standard I know of that runs 5.56 pressure. It runs around 2750 fps in an 18" barrel. Armedferret says he's getting 2740 fps in his 16" gun with the 77 smk and you said you see about the same. To me that is "really hot".Formy posted some 16" results with MK262 at 2633 the other day. I'm not sure if it's altitude or chrony differences but it's interesting.

You may have missed the part where I said "no pressure signs"....flat primers or a light ejector swipe would be "hot", popped primers or barbs sticking off the head from the ejector is "really hot". If there ain't signs of pressure, it ain't a hot load.

One sign of excess pressure is loose primer pockets.

But unless a primer falls out, you won't notice that until you reload that case.

If you're loosening primer pockets on the first shot, it's definitely excess pressure and time to back off. In ARs usually I see ejector hole marks (not just swipes, but actual raised circles on the case head) but not always.Those marks can be a sign of over pressure, but the absence of them doesn't mean you're OK.

If a case is reloadable 6-8 times with tight primer pockets, pressure isn't close to max. I consider max where a case is reloadable 3-4 times (assuming no other pressure signs either), and I've seen well above 2750 in 16" barrels with 75/77gr bullets with that criteria, with several different powders. That is mostly using LC brass, sometimes I'll use Win or PMC brass as well.

One side comment about ejector swipes as a pressure sign - excess headspace (even .010") or an overgassed action can both cause these even with lower pressure loads. I consider them false pressure signs in those circumstances.

Also - correlating your velocity to a factory load means nothing if you aren't using the same powder. Even then, you have no idea what actual pressure is from the factory load in your barrel, only a loose guess.

So, bottom line it for me.

Stock up on Lever or Benchmark for most 223/5.56 needs 55 grain through 75 grain?

Benchmark, Xterminator, and TAC for me. I use Lever in other cartridges but am not very fond of it in heavy bullet 5.56 loads, because of excess gas. I often shoot suppressed though, which makes Lever worse. It does produce good velocity.

What do you want to do, David?

If I was plinking I'd get the cheapest ball powder I could find, like WC844 or 846.

If I wanted to shoot precision type matches, I'd load up on a temp-resistant stick powder like Varget, AR-Comp, 8208, H4895, N140 or even a better ball powder like TAC. You won't know which one is best for your gun until you try it.

Is Varget temp resistant?

I’ll be shooting 55 grain spirepoints and 75 BTHP mostly.

Varget is one of the most temperature insensitive powders out there.
I love it for 55s & 75s. Not the highest velocity w/55s, but great accuracy.

H4895 is also temp resistant and is one of my favorites for heavy .223 loads. I get equal or better accuracy compared to Varget and higher velocities. Both are extruded medium grain length powders and I usually weigh the loads for either of these powders.
TAC and Xterminator meter great, being fine grained ball powders, but I have never found them able to match the accuracy of the better extruded single base powders. I do use them for the lighter weight plinker stuff.

I've used Varget out to 600 and it will hold X-ring elevation just dumping charges out of a Lee Perfect measure. There's no need to weigh charges, just keep an eye out for bridging.

"I've seen well above 2750 in 16" barrels with 75/77gr bullets"

With 75's I have too but not with 77 SMK's. MK 262 is supposed to be loaded as hot as it can be with a powder that is not available to us. My whole deal is to see if something else out there is better. I watched the video armedferret put up the other day on MK262 clone and even that guy is only getting 2750+ with an 18" barrel. Just trying to sort this out like everyone else, guess I'll spend the money on some 2520...

David right now (and I'll probably stick with it), TAC is what I'm keeping on hand.

I used to have lots of TAC, because it works for the 223 and the 308.

I may have to go back to it.

I generally agree with all of that, with 5 loadings as my nominal target.


What I meant by my earlier comment about 5.56 pressure, is that I don't think I've ever seen a direct translation of the NATO standard to PSI...............I've generally understood it was some around 62K, but never really seen in spelled out. Obviouly it must be around 62-63K as that's where Western maxes their specified 5.56 loads for their various powders.

But at any rate, 2750 from a 16" barrel is not leaving much on the table, & IMO, & has got to be at, or very near, max 5.56 pressure level, especially when BH MK 262 is running below 2700 from a 16" barrel...............with a given bullet & barrel, velocity only comes from pressure, given that different powders may have slightly different pressure curves.



I generally agree with that direction too.

MM

TAC or 8208 (right next to each other on BR Chart), any day over Varget by a whole lot................Varget is a good performing powder, but if you're loading a lot of rounds, it's a royal PIA because it meters so poorly through a powder measure. And it's a lot more expensive than TAC, which is about as cheap as you can get for a top notch powder.

I've got a lot of 8208 that I got about half price, but if I didn't have it & wanted a good, economical equivalent, TAC would be #1.

JMHO

Thanks, MM,

I’m giving 8082 a strong look.

Being that you mentioned AA2520 I am getting 2994 with 25.5 gr behind the Nosler 70 gr rdf in my 24 inch barreled Ar.

FWIW, I've not noticed my load of 75HPBT's/26.0LVR2750ish being hard on brass or primer pockets, but my testing ain't exactly scientific (primers didn't fall out when I picked the cases up off the ground:)). My AR is gassed pretty close to correct and I pulled the o-ring out of the extractor so it'd be a bit kinder to rims, so the "once fired" brass I bought from brassman honestly comes out in better shape than it went in (some of it was pretty rough and dented up initially).

A couple of variables; I've READ (not actually measured for myself) that 75BTHP's have a bit less bearing surface than 77SMK's, and, I am running a BHW barrel that I've READ tends to run a bit faster than a conventionally rifled barrel. Not to say that anyone ever READ anything false, inaccurate, or unsubstantiated on the internet (sarcasm emoji).

I will say that while Varget and 4895 have a great reputation (I've got a couple buddies that I'm pretty sure put Varget on their Corn Flakes), I just ain't running stick powder while loading for an AR. Lever, TAC, and H335 run through the uniflow way too easy.

Reading David's posts about running TAC in both a .223 and a .308 sorta made me wonder aloud about Lever in a .308, just sayin'.

Someday, in a perfect world, it's gonna dry up, warm up, work is gonna let up, and I'm gonna get to shoot a bit..............

I am getting 2625 fps from a 16" barrel using 8208 behind 77 gr TMKs and the accuracy is impressive. Sd is 3, but thats only from 4 shots measured. I have tried Varget and CFE223, but could not get the velocities or accuracy of 8202. What velocity range could lever get me into? is it worth testing since I am happy with the 8208?

I tried the 77 TMK with Lever and settled for 2671 fps in the same gun. A half a grain more powder got me 2726 fps and was a little warm in 92 degree weather.

So really not a whole lot.

I'm struggling with the Hornady 75 BTHP at 2.250 to find anything good.

Does that barrel shoot anything well? I didn't take time to go all the way back thru the thread.

If it does, try another powder & move on; but some say that the 75 Hornady does better not being pushed too hard but I've not seen that.

I've found marginal barrels to be finicky, liking only specific combinations; really good barrels are not finicky & generally shoot most combinations well, maybe some a little better than others.

Finicky barrels don't last long with me.............just too much effort wasted.

MM

This.

I posted a ten shot group with 25 Varget and the 75 BTHP that’s an inch.

How much better do you think that barrel should be?

Looks like Vargets's your answer, and Lever isn't.

I couldn't find where you said what barrel it is, & even if I knew, it would be hard to tell how good it could be.

Regardless of what some like to think, 10 shots <MOA is not all that easy to get to & is surely not a given. But some here like to obsess with it.

Varget is generally a good performer, but it meters like rocks for any volume loading so I really don't use it but if it works, then use it.

As has been stated before 8208 is generally accurate as is AR-Comp, TAC & some of the V V powders. If your gun really doesn't like 75, then try some 77's or 69's from Sierra.............the TMK's in 69 have been very good for me.

I don't user Lever, as for the most part, I just think it's too slow & there are better choices, other than that I can't comment on it, but it's definitely now very impressive in your gun.

MM

Now you are just trying to hurt bsa feelings..

Sadly like you I could not get lvr to shoot in my AR with 75, or both nosler and sierra 77’s. I switched over to 8208 so far 77 sierras shoot the best followed by 75gr hornady then the 77gr noslers. I still get a flyer, it’s either me or maybe the brass that’s causing it. More than likely it’s me, I need to get a better buttstock. Currently running a magpul but need to get one with a better cheek well.

John,

I’ll have a UBR-2 for sale as soon as I get the parts from Magpul to remove it. FDE color.

PM me if interested.

Ah man I need black, that’s what I’m looking at as well the ubr-2

It can be black. Use your Krylon-fu.....

for 223 and light bullets. I don't see how you beat benchmark for speed, accuracy and lack of finickiness. the load I run with 50's has a 3 grain window that has no POI shift within that range. it also outruns every other powder I have tried.

Older thread, but I wanted to toss these up.

Plain Jane 1-7 16" PSA upper with a little 1.25x4 VXR Patrol, stock trigger and such.











These were Hornady 75 HPBT's, CCI450's, LVR and LC brass.

I think I am going to retry them in my rifle since I have a little more magnification and a better trigger as well, just to see if 25 and 26.5 both shoot about the same. I have a butt ton of LVR, so I'd like to make it work. No ideas on speeds yet since the MS won't pick up rounds well with the sensor being so far from the muzzle.

Each square is a centimeter? So, in English, 4" groups?

Pretty much David. I’m not sure if it hates the bullets, powder, etc. I’m going to try the same thing with 77 grain Sierra TMKs and see what happens.

I’ll try the Hornadys in my gun with the same charges as well just to see what’s up. I’m sure there is plenty of speed on them but 3-4” won’t cut it.

I know it goes against what one buttmunch recommends, but not every rifle is in love with Lever.

I'd move on to something else.

I found LVR to be very good in my bolt guns and not so hot in my AR's. I did notice it worked better in my 20 inch barreled upper but it really puts out good speed and accuracy in my 22" barrel on my Model 7 with 75 grain bullets.

In my little brothers same exact rifle 25.5 grains of LVR with a 77 Sierra is a hammer.

No accounting for what different guns like. It was the first round but I figured I’d post up what I’d gotten for the initial shots.

After a lot more experimenting, you might conclude that those 75gr BTHP don't shoot well when pushed to max. I gave up about 150 fps and settled on 23.5gr of Benchmark in my 16" with that bullet in LC brass and S&B or WSR primers; it shoots much better that way.

That same rifle hasn't had any luck at all with the TMK bullets. The noses are so long, there's very little room to test different seating lengths, and even at max mag length they have a loooong jump to the lands. I didn't get them to shoot any better than your pics above; roughly 4" patterns @ 100 yds. Same goes for the 70gr RDF, and so far the 73gr ELD as well.

After digging I did have some luck with lever and 75 hornady I was loading them at 2.295. Also suggest trying 2.260 as for an OAL as well.

But at the end of the day 3 powders to use far as I’m concerned for the 77’s and up #1 Varget #2 RL15 #3 AR-Comp, if we round out the top 5 then #4 8208 #5 Imr 4064

Thanks for the info fellas. I loaded them out to 2.260 and will give them a shot this week. Also loaded some 77 TMKs as well using the same charges. I’ll post up what I get.

I’m about to head to the range loaded up some 75 hornady with 25.8gr Lever to give a whirl.

So I tried the same exact 75 HPBT loads with LVR through my AR today. Mines an 18" upper, 1-7, 1x8.5 Bushnell with a Geiselle G2SE in it. Otherwise it is dead stock. This barrel is pretty much brand new other than the two test fires I did at the house.









So I had about the same exact dismal results as my buddie's AR from a couple days ago..

Next up were the 77 grain Sierra TMK's.. Right out of the gate I knew these were more inline with what I expect from a decent AR..







Then at 26.5 it fell on it's face...



So, right outta the gate, the gun shot real well. I believe I will go back and load up a few 100 of the 26 grain load and do some shooting at distance and see what happens out there, but I suspect it'll be decent.

The kicker for the day was I loaded the same string of charges for my buddies rifle to hopefully have a load in common that I can mass produce. It seemed to work..









His rifle did the same as mine. Shot decent to good up to 26 and fell on it's face at 26.5.. No issues, we have an easily loadable round in common...

His rifle




Mine





Pretty nice day to try them out side by side. I'll get a pile loaded and get a good zero and take them out. I can't get a reading from the Magnetospeed, so I may have to bite the bullet for a cheap ProCrono or something just to check speeds, but I'd guess were somewhere around the 2750 mark, give or take..

I love leverevolution for my 30-30. i have a savage 340b.For those unfamiliar with this model, it is not tube fed but box magazine fed. i grabbed this powder because i had read, and listened to all the hub bub.I wanted to see what kind of reloads i could make. i started off using 150gr spire points, over 36.5g lvr i was loving the accuracy i was getting for a bolt action rife built in 1947. i was getting 1 moa average. perfectly acceptable for hunting. I Changed from the 150's to 125 gr to 130 gr sp from speer and sierra. I tried hornadys 130s, they gave ok accuracy but the 130s from sierra were the cat meow. My buddy was hunting with a 308 and my 150 gr handloads for the wifes 308 that she no longer has. I was punching through 7/8s thick steel at 100 yards. So out of curiosity i got some federal fusions in 170 gr. Good accuracy for what it is. but it would not go through the steel. my 130s will. i am using a 22 inch barrel. I am a firm believer of LVR. I am excited to try it with 223/556 loads for my diamond back db15.

With all the other good powders available for 223/5.56, some of the proponents of Lever, please tell me why it's "better" & how it's "better" & why I should switch or even try it, other than for the sake of just saying I tried it.

MM