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OP
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Being a moderator on the nosler website/forums has its perks.  I could not say anything until now!!! Check this out:  ![[Linked Image]](http://www.nosler.com/images/etipbanner.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.nosler.com/images/press-release.jpg)
Last edited by POP; 04/12/07.
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All of the lead free developments are giving me a sinking feeling. I'm guessing a $50 increase in the cost of an afternoon at the range with my 308 is coming whether I like it or not.  mathman
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quote=mathman].... I'm guessing a $50 increase in the cost of an afternoon at the range with my 308 is coming whether I like it or not. mathman[/quote] NOPE!
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I'll buy the " initiates expansion" but when are these companies going to get off the kick about prevents deformation. It has bene proven many times that a little deformation does not effect accuracy.
They will be a big seller in CA
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Is it a solid shank with no grooves?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I wasn't referring to that product by itself. After the regs change so we can't use anything but lead free bullets I smell price increases all around since there will be no economical alternative.
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I will post everything I get from Nosler on it.
I am getting a lot of info as we "speak".
From the sound of it they are a phenomenal bullet and proven on game to boot already!
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Barnes must be doing something right as they say immatation is the highest form of flattery
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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This is what I got from them: Very accurate, less copper problems, Texas boars do not stand a chance (many shot at various velocities) expansion needs 1800 fps (ala partition) available in 180 gr 30 cal, non stop production right now, will not shed the petals easily at all! http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=3&bullet=20
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Hey Painless
Take a look at this, maybe your 7-08 will like these
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
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Why would Nosler refer to "recreational shooting" in their description of this bullet? Who can afford 50 to 70 cents per bullet for targets? I hope this has nothing to do with the "lead-free" issue I hear about.
Now with even more aplomb
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I hope this has nothing to do with the "lead-free" issue I hear about. 
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randy..
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Looks like Nosler is going for some market share.
Having a high BC, should be in the E-Tip's favor. That's the main reason why I don't use the TSX, it has a very low BC and uses grooves to further slow it down at distance.
Just called Nosler,
The BC is .523, compare that to Barnes .453.
For long distance shooters who use turrets that extra BC can make a real difference.
Last edited by SU35; 04/12/07.
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I see your point, but I would wager to say that those who don't turn turrets get the most goody from a slippery bullet. Yet another advantage of the set-up.
Now with even more aplomb
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Do they have a list of calibers and weights for initial distribution?
Never mind. It is listed in the announcement.
Last edited by 300Winnie; 04/12/07.
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Wouldn't be taking to much stock in what the manufacturer is quoting for a BC
My dog is a member of the "Turd Like Clan"
Covert Trail Cameras are JUNK
3 Time Dinkathon Champion #DinkGOAT
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Interesting. I'll be looking forward to more info.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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A deformed tip on a copper point? Must have a serious recoiling rifle for that to happen.
Looks like a nice large cavity up front, which is calling for the plastic tip to claim a high BC.
Folks better have a VERY large magazine to be able to seat those bullets. That tip is going to add serious length to a bullet that is probably long to start with in relation to its weight.
I aint buying into that it will be better than "the other guys". Maybe the same when trying to figure out just how dead a critter is, but not better.
Ain't marketing a science in itself?
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is.
dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
Italian Proverb
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This is what I received from Nosler. POP: To answer some of the questions, firstly it's not an all copper bullet like some of the competition's lead free bullets so it doesn't share the characteristics, like snapping the petals at a high velocity. That also means it doesn't foul like an all copper bullet, the accuracy is amazing. I saw the results just two days ago, I'll post when I can.
I'm just waiting for a call back on the price so I can give you a ballpark figure.
I'll keep you posted. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/378fan/backside.jpg)
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Nosler's E-tip will already be slippery enough if not more than the TSX, and does not need grooves to enhance it's performance.
It sure cant be any longer than the already "long" TSX.
Sounds like copper prices will dictate the cost of these bullets and copper is expensive.
Last edited by SU35; 04/12/07.
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I'd like to see them on the factory 2nds list....
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Update!
POP:
Just got some more info for you.
Pricing: It will be slightly more than Partition. (that's a lot less than MRX)
Availability: Ammunition through Winchester will be first and it will be available prior to hunting season. Bullets will be available fourth quarter of this year.
That's all I got right at this second. I'll be changing the website off and on all day.
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Pricing: It will be slightly more than Partition. (that's a lot less than MRX) Yes, but it's still around $40 more per hundred than the lead cored 168 Nosler I shoot for fun and practice. That's what gives me the sinking feeling about going lead free. mathman
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First the E-TIP, and if they keep going down the alphabet, they'll eventually get to the Q-TIP!! It's only a matter of time.
I presume the E-TIPs will come with a warning not to use them in the ear. Can't be too careful.
The joking aside, I'm looking forward to trying them out.
Pop, will the new Nosler reloading manual have E-TIP data, and is that why it was delayed until this summer?
Steve
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I was looking for a non lead bullet that had a protected meplat so that the mono hollow point would not fold in. Lapua or someone? has a 'Naturalis' bullet like that but its a round nose last I looked. It mentions guilding metal as it's "metal frame". If its all 95-5 then it will have a little less density than copper. In any case it seems that we are faced with non lead bullets down the road sooner or later. I have a dresser drawer over filled with .30 caliber bullets alone along with lots of molds for casting!
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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They might as well name them the C-Note bullet. You know, a Saturday at the range = a C-Note worth of bullets.
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The price of scrap metals is far above what it was only a few years ago. Metals recovery from outdoor ranges is down the road?
Our range now has a regulation that all shots go through targets in certain places only and the bullets impact particular berms.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Too bad we can't generate good bullets from empty beer cans. Coors Core-lokts and Busch Ballistic Tips. Talk about vertically integrated!
Now with even more aplomb
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Pop how do these new E-Tips compare in performance with the SMK's on game performance?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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You hate me don't you?  No seriously. I was told they did a "tester" boar hunt with these last week. They were fired at all types of velocities and they performed in a stellar manner. Trying to retrieve one was a chore. The guilding metal mix makes these more flexible in their performance so they expand massively and penetrate like crazy. Additionally I have had reports thet they shoot very very accurately. I would not be surprized if they match the BT's !!! So to answer the question they expand, penetrate and are a very acurate bullet. As far as comparing them to a Matchking................. I do not know how to finish this sentence. 
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I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I knew you would! I was actually expecting the SMK to pop up!
ha ha ha
Last edited by POP; 04/12/07.
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POP,
When I visited the plant in Bend last Fall, they told me they were working the plant at pretty much full capacity. Did they add more capacity or did they cut back production on something else?
Jaywalker
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I am thinking the latter although I am not 100% sure. I will ask for you though.
Man! Bt's Et's, PT's SB's...etc a lot on their plate.
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I'd have to admit that I am a Barnes TSX fan but that looks like a better design. And if they are cheaper....even by a little bit, WOW!?!
I think the lead free movement might be possibly a better idea than most would think. I think there is a definate factor of making people concentrate on their hobby of shooting because there is no room in the pocket book for "throwing lead" anymore.
Now, here's the real question. Lets say these catch on the same or better than Barnes.
How long until the Partition and everything else is canceled?
-Everyone has a dream hunt, mine just happens to be for a Moose-
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Sorry Magnum61, I disagree on your "throwing lead" idea. I think people are too fat in general, so we should raise food prices significantly and make them think twice about that extra slice of pizza. Right.......
Now with even more aplomb
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Awesome!
Nosler quality and consistency... I'll give them a try!
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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I'll try them too. I suspect we may see some other monolithic bullets from some other bullet manufacturers soon enough as well.
I think this is a good move by Nosler, and I BET they'll shoot!
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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How long until the Partition and everything else is canceled? Bite your tongue! Partitions canceled? Woozy here.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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Now, here's the real question. Lets say these catch on the same or better than Barnes.
How long until the Partition and everything else is canceled? No plans for this whatsoever! The partition is indeed a benchmark, a point of reference a legend!
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Awesome!
Nosler quality and consistency... I'll give them a try! That's what I was thinking. May be the best of the premiums... I'm guessing they'll be making Ballistic Tips and Partitions for a long, long time...:)
James
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men. Mt 15:9
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think the lead free movement might be possibly a better idea than most would think. I think there is a definate factor of making people concentrate on their hobby of shooting because there is no room in the pocket book for "throwing lead" anymore.
WTF? With the time and care I put into handloading my ammunition I hardly consider what I do to be throwing lead. mathman
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I'd have to admit that I am a Barnes TSX fan but that looks like a better design. or better than Barnes. How is it a better design? It's a solid shank same as the original Barnes and the Lost River Balistics bullet and a solid shank monolithic without groves or driving bands has its share of problems that are well documented....
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I hope Nosler doesnt beta test on the consumer like Barnes did. I also hope the keep the dimensions the same over the years, which Barnes hasnt done.
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Nosler has somewhat of an uphill battle on this one, since it took Barnes a decade to get the copper X design dialed in, and no one to date has made a homogenous gliding metal bullet work out as well as the X.
I think Nosler sees the handwriting on the wall and a need to get a product in the marketplace that is compatible with the rash of "lead free" bullet legislation coming down the pike from the antis.
The antis are a real piece of work... first they cause a decimation of the game herds by introducing wolves, then take away the solution by removing lead from bullets. Sort of a "one-two" poison pill for hunting in the US.
It's Carl Marx's "dialectic materialism" in action...
TC
It ain't all burritos and strippers my friends...
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I'd like to see them on the factory 2nds list.... Yeah!--But I have a feeling it will be a while, and the discounted price of these (most likely) pricey bullets will be about what Partition 1sts sell for....... Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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So what are the ingredients of the gilding metal that Nosler ( I assume) feels won't lead to copper fouling like the X-Bullets did?
Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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POP,
Any answer to my question if the E-TIP reloading data will be in the new Nosler loading manual, and if the E-TIP was the reason for the delay in the manual?
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Hmm....
The barnes patents must have expired, I'm sure this one crosses into dangerous IPR (Intellectual Property Rights). Patents are only good for 17 to 20 years so I guess it's about time. Probably some other older than that covering solids (non lead).
Spot
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I wondered the same thing about the Failsafe front end which was as direct a copy as you could get from the X which was released in 1989.
AGW
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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I may try them in the future, but I've got way to many TSX's to use up 1st.
I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
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The lead free movement is relentless with the greenies such as the Sierra Club, etc.. Not to mention those of similar ilk that are managers and policy makers in USFS, US. Dept. of Interior and the National Parks.
There are attempts to ban lead from upland game shells - even on private property. Just a continuation of the waterfowl ban.
Socialist Minnesotas' DNR has an ongoing effort to have fisherman trade in their lead fishing baits for non-toxic lures.
Its just a matter of time until our Legislature bans lead - period.
Just remember the next bullet that some want is the "F Bullet"!
No, not the four letter word, "F" as in the "FICTICTIOUS BULLET".
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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Hmm....
The barnes patents must have expired, I'm sure this one crosses into dangerous IPR (Intellectual Property Rights). Patents are only good for 17 to 20 years so I guess it's about time. Probably some other older than that covering solids (non lead).
Spot Does Barnes have patents on a monolithic expanding bullet? There were South African outfits making and selling expanding monolithics before Barnes. Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Fellers I have no idea if anyone ownes any patents that they'd be getting in trouble for.
BUT given the way things go these days a lawsuit wouldn't be a surprise.
Spot
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I look forward to trying these!!
Thanks POP for posting this.
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So can we call these the Envy Bullet??? As they have finaly gave up and joined the best bullets on earth the Barnes TSX..
Tough I may have to try them and Hope they make them in a 140 6.5.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Is Eremicus in cahoots with Nosler?
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Is Eremicus in cahoots with Nosler? Maybe E has the patent  Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That sly dog...............
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A few sources for Copper boolits could drive the price down, at least a little. This would be a good thang!
"The Bigger the Government, the Smaller the Citizen" - Dennis Prager LINK
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Ballistic Tip, E - Tip, next they will come out with a Reservoir Tip, for a most satisfying experience. Now that I think about it, the TSX is ribbed, the XLC is lubricated, and all are available in Magnum sizes. Maybe I am on to something here?
Watch for novelty bullets that glow in the dark or special coatings to make your bullets stay harder for longer. You can find them in the men's room wall dispenser at your local Cabela's.
Now with even more aplomb
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Commercially, Nosler will kick Barnes azz with this, big time.
I'll buy Nosler over Barnes any day of the week......assuming it DOES work.
MM
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Well, at least we'll have another choice in lead free out here in the PRK when they legislate that in.
God help my kids.
"Doing right isn't always easy but it is always right."
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The lead free movement is relentless with the greenies such as the Sierra Club, etc.. Not to mention those of similar ilk that are managers and policy makers in USFS, US. Dept. of Interior and the National Parks. Could you possibly enlighten us as to who all these policy makers are? I know pretty much all of the policy makers in the US Forest Service, and have never heard a single mention of lead-free bullets for hunting anywhere, anytime. Some might shoot TSX's for the shock effect , but that's about as far as that's likely to go.
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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I will have to give these a try I love the accubonds. 180 will work great in my short mag
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In response to some of the comments replying back to mine. I think they are at least valid.
A lot of products in other markets are getting cannibalized by newer and updated versions of themselves. But when you have a company like Nosler that has been "the" standard in a premium lead design for so many years and now after the Nosler Partition Gold, bringing back the solid base, and then the accubond, it seems funny that now they bring out a monoholic design.
It seems like they threw up there hands and said, "ok, we give, now lets make this design better, our way."
I respect that, it's a good business move.
I wonder when we finally lose lead projectiles, if they could make a partition out of something like tungsten or similar products.
And to reply to the comment about a "better design." My personal feeling has always been that the barnes bullet should be what Nosler has come out with. A plastic tip to help with expansion and a deep hollow point with stronger material so it expands wide but holds together.
JPro- You're right, thats better logic than what I was thinking. Just got caught up in it all.
-Everyone has a dream hunt, mine just happens to be for a Moose-
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Magnum or Pop
Do you know when they are likely to be available for us here in Australia? Also, are there dates for the release of other calibres? I suspect that it would make a great Buffalo bullet for here in Aust, particularly if it was in 338 calibre :-)
I agree, Nosler have established themselves as the benchmark, good luck to them with this new projectile.
LBC
Experience is something you get, just after you needed it.
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POP,
Any answer to my question if the E-TIP reloading data will be in the new Nosler loading manual, and if the E-TIP was the reason for the delay in the manual? I am working on getting all these facts together...
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Campfire Ranger
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Exactly what IS your relationship w/ Nolser?
Just wondering........& thanks for ALL the info.
MM
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Looks like Nosler is going for some market share.
Having a high BC, should be in the E-Tip's favor. That's the main reason why I don't use the TSX, it has a very low BC and uses grooves to further slow it down at distance.
Just called Nosler,
The BC is .523, compare that to Barnes .453.
For long distance shooters who use turrets that extra BC can make a real difference.
Which bullet and weight?
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Hey POP.
I'm a great fan on the 180gr AccuBond in my 30-06, and keen to try these 180gr E-Tips out. Any idea of a release date in Australia?
Still waiting on a 6mm AccuBond projectile for the 243 too!!!!
Regards
Drew
22LR ~ 22H ~ 204 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 7x57mm ~ 338 Win Mag ~ 450/400 NE 3" ~ 12G
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They are claining a BC of .523 for the 180gn, which puts it right up there with the Berger 175 match VLD. Call me suspicious. It will be interesting to see if it really shoots as well as TSX. 168gn TSX at 100 yards. 5 rounds into 0.221 inches. ![[Linked Image]](http://guntech.com/misc/tsx.jpg)
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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and have never heard a single mention of lead-free bullets for hunting anywhere, anytime.
Muledeer, The AZ G&F is recommending the use of unleaded bullets here in AZ particularly for those hunts on the north and south Kaibab, around the Grand Canyon. Fear is that the condors will eat from a gut pile or carcass and ingest lead. Some hunters have received gift certificates good for a box of unleaded factory ammo for their Kaibab hunts, or a notice about their suggested use like I received for a unit 9 elk hunt in 2005. I think there are about 85 condors in AZ near the canyon now. They are periodically captured and tested for lead. Doug~RR
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Nosler has always shown professionalism in statements with their bullets. When they say a BC is a certain number it's because it is.
Unlike Barnes;
Who for years "claimed" inflated BC's.
Produced a flawed reloading guide.
Made brittle bullets, used flawed materials, at more than a few times.
They can't even put the right bullets in the right box, just read the recent thread here.
Not to mention that skewed video of a bullet hitting some
watered up gel.
I've tested plenty of Barnes bullets in my rifles. The TSX is a heck of an accurate bullet and I actually prefer they lose their petals. I like the grenade effect like a partition, I'm not hung up on picture perfect mushrooms. I think more internal damage is done when the NP and TSX lose their nose. But as stated I don't use them as I use turrets and want a bullet that hits at 2,000 fps minimum at distance. Between the 2 bullets and their BC's, the Nosler gives me another 100 yards. Striking velocity is also higher with a higher BC bullet and that's something the Barnes needs to have to be successful.
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I was looking for lead free bullets long ago. What happened is that the wife got a piece of lead in her venison right there on the dinner plate. This did not go over well and its been hanging over vension ever since.
The Barnes bullets that were out in the mid 90's did not satisfy me.
Nosler has an excellent reputation.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Exactly what IS your relationship w/ Nolser?
Just wondering........& thanks for ALL the info.
MM As POP said in his original post in this topic: Being a moderator on the nosler website/forums has its perks. I don't know if POP has other connections with Nosler. Just trying to be helpful..... -Bob F.
"Whose bright idea was it to put every idiot in the world in touch with every other idiot? It's working!" -- P. J. O'Rourke
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Actually I wished I worked for them!!!! Dream job from hell and I retire from the USAF in 40 days. Hmmmmm!! Seriously fellas. All I am is a nosler fan (and Barnes hornady --I hate speer and despise Sierra ) and I am a non-compensated moderator on the nosler forums. No other connection at all. On my word of honor. BTW all the stats pix etc are with the Nosler family for the formal unveiling of the e-tip in KC. They will receive the Golden Bullseye (I think that is the name) for John Nosler. So when everything is back i will report. Hey you guys knew more and before that the gunwriters did!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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[quote=POP) Seriously fellas. All I am is a nosler fan (and Barnes hornady --I hate speer and despise Sierra ) [/quote] Even the SMK's?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Nosler has always shown professionalism in statements with their bullets. When they say a BC is a certain number it's because it is.
Unlike Barnes;
Who for years "claimed" inflated BC's.
Produced a flawed reloading guide.
Made brittle bullets, used flawed materials, at more than a few times.
They can't even put the right bullets in the right box, just read the recent thread here.
Not to mention that skewed video of a bullet hitting some
watered up gel.
I've tested plenty of Barnes bullets in my rifles. The TSX is a heck of an accurate bullet and I actually prefer they lose their petals. I like the grenade effect like a partition, I'm not hung up on picture perfect mushrooms. I think more internal damage is done when the NP and TSX lose their nose. But as stated I don't use them as I use turrets and want a bullet that hits at 2,000 fps minimum at distance. Between the 2 bullets and their BC's, the Nosler gives me another 100 yards. Striking velocity is also higher with a higher BC bullet and that's something the Barnes needs to have to be successful. Exactaaaaly--although I'm not quite as hard on Barnes Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Seriously fellas. All I am is a nosler fan (and Barnes hornady --I hate speer and despise Sierra ) and I am a non-compensated moderator on the nosler forums. No other connection at all. On my word of honor. POP: Thanks for the info..........I'm pretty dedicated to Nosler, almost exclusively. Never have been a Barnes fan in the least. MM
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Pop- We'd be happy to start house hunting in Bend for you!
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I would like to see Nosler or somebody develop a line of super-premiums (unleaded or otherwise) specifically designed for stodgy old non-magnum velocities. Instead of worrying about fragmentation at 3200 fps, make sure the thing mushrooms properly and reliably at 1800 fps. For every yahoo shooting a Weatherby or RUM, there must be 100 guys (and gals!) shooting a .30-06, .308, or hell 7x57. Focus on the 1700-2800 fps impact velocity, and let the mega-magnum folks buy TSXes or Swifts. Call it the "E-Tip Classic" line. How would the California authorities react to hunting bullets made from depleted uranium?
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What about recycled bear cans?
Aluminium is maleable and would be soft on barrels. Most of all, there will never be a shortage.
AGW
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Pop,
Heard anything about when they might be coming out with E-tips in other calibers?
Like for my 257Roy???
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Yah Elkslayer!!!!!!!!
I'll be curious to see how they work in the Roy, as well, both on paper, and how they stand up to the velocity.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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I am sure availability indifferent weights and diameters will be on par with the accubond eventually. I am thinking 7mm next, 270, 338 etc etc.
We all now how this business works. Most popular first then the oddball diameters and weight.
PS I will let you know about moving to Bend!!!!
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I'm thinking the nice thing about these types of bullets is you can run lighter bullets, hence greater velocity, so I am not going to worry about bullet length. I also like the idea it does not need rings, like someone else stated, that can slow the bullet over a long shot (maybe, maybe not). But, if what they claim about opening up more, and at lower velocities is true, coupled with resistance to shedding petals verses the TSX, then I would say Nosler probably has a winner.
Final thoughts are that Nosler probably is not foolish enough to market a solid bullet verses the TSX without proof their bullet has a few superior characteristics.
As for pricing, over the long term, I think it will benefit us reloaders, as competition leads to pricing concessions.
I'm wondering when Hornady and Swift will get in the frey.
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Nosler has always shown professionalism in statements with their bullets. When they say a BC is a certain number it's because it is.
Unlike Barnes;
Who for years "claimed" inflated BC's.
Produced a flawed reloading guide.
Made brittle bullets, used flawed materials, at more than a few times.
They can't even put the right bullets in the right box, just read the recent thread here.
Not to mention that skewed video of a bullet hitting some
watered up gel.
I've tested plenty of Barnes bullets in my rifles. The TSX is a heck of an accurate bullet and I actually prefer they lose their petals. I like the grenade effect like a partition, I'm not hung up on picture perfect mushrooms. I think more internal damage is done when the NP and TSX lose their nose. But as stated I don't use them as I use turrets and want a bullet that hits at 2,000 fps minimum at distance. Between the 2 bullets and their BC's, the Nosler gives me another 100 yards. Striking velocity is also higher with a higher BC bullet and that's something the Barnes needs to have to be successful.
SU35, I am in your camp 100 percent. Your reasons are exactly why I for the life of me, cant say nice things about Barnes. I load TSX's, but I have privatly been waiting for someone else to come along and do it better, appears Nosler has done it.
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hope more buy those noslers and leave the TSXs for me. Copying is the best flattery around. HAPPY HUNTING
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Putting mixed weight bullets in a box of bullets would be, er, very dangerous.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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[Quote] by AggieDog
SU35, I am in your camp 100 percent. Your reasons are exactly why I for the life of me, cant say nice things about Barnes. I load TSX's, but I have privatly been waiting for someone else to come along and do it better, appears Nosler has done it.[Quote]
On what do you base your opion? Exactly how do you know that Nosler "has done it better" ? Have you tested this bullet? Did get samples to try before Mule Deer ?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Putting mixed weight bullets in a box of bullets would be, er, very dangerous. I assume that you have documented this to be fact? Do you mind sharing your proof? is it possiable that every thing posted on the internet is not true?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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The bore grooves reduce pressure, as I understand it. A solid gilding metal bullet may not need grooves to reduce bore deposition, but I wonder if the E-Tips will turn out to cause greater pressures than a cup/core of the same weight and bearing length.
AggieDog, I don't think they need to be superior, they just need to be different. In fact one of the principles they teach in business school is "differentiation"; making sure that your product is effectively different than the existing competitors. The differing factor(s) can be cost, performance, availability, etc. Nosler can certainly differentiate the E-tip from the TSX on cost, but also BC, impact velocity range, expansion characteristics vs penetration characteristics, etc. Since Nosler's distribution pipeline is bigger, they've got an advantage there, plus Nosler seems to have a lot more muscle w.r.t. publishing load data, so they can beat the TSX with a greater range and depth of load data if they want. And like I said, the easiest way to get differentiation in the super-premium market is to go after the lower velocity crowd.
AGW, aluminum's density is so small a .308" 200 grain spitzer would be sticking out way past the throat. Not sure how you'd remove aluminum deposits in the bore, either. Once aluminum forms an oxide coat, its pretty impervious to chemical attack. And aluminum oxide is a serious abrasive, the bullets might have to be coated.
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Why don't you just call Ty on the telephone for yourself....
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It was a joke, but my PC does not smile when I type.
AGW
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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I really can't believe so much discussion is happening about the "improved BC" of this bullet over the Barnes TSX. The ballistic coefficient differences are more imagined than real - at least in hunting conditions.
What is the difference in actual shooting performance between a bullet having a .523 BC over one "only" having a .453 BC? According to Nosler's own tables the difference (in a 180 grain 30-06 bullet, launched at 2800fps) the difference amounts to a WHOLE INCH - (when sighted in at 200 yards) at 400 yards away!
AN INCH!
Is there anyone who is going to seriously tell me they can spot a ONE INCH difference when shooting game a quarter mile away? Seriously?
Brian
Vernon BC Canada
"Nothing in life - can compare to seeing smiles on your children's faces."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Why don't you just call Ty on the telephone for yourself.... Are you saying that Tye is your proof?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I really don't care about BC differences. I just like the fact that Barnes will now have some serious competition in the solid copper bullet arena. That usually always poses well for consumers. Competition can lead to lower pricing as they compete in the market. Maybe, maybe not, but it at least allows us more choices, and that is always a "good thing" for us reloaders.
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jw, if you want to call people a liar on the board, go for it, I happen to believe it is true, and really give a flip what you believe.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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jw, if you want to call people a liar on the board, go for it, I happen to believe it is true, and really give a flip what you believe. Liar? now that is pretty strong words, your words by the way.So you acctualy think that every statement is fact?Can't someone be wrong without lying? You are making a lot of strong statements and I would like to know what you are basing them on.. Since you act as if you know Tye so well,then why are you bashing the company that he works for.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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[quote=SU35]Nosler has always shown professionalism in statements with their bullets. When they say a BC is a certain number it's because it is.
Unlike Barnes;
Who for years "claimed" inflated BC's.
Produced a flawed reloading guide.
Made brittle bullets, used flawed materials, at more than a few times.
They can't even put the right bullets in the right box, just read the recent thread here.
Not to mention that skewed video of a bullet hitting some
watered up gel.
I've tested plenty of Barnes bullets in my rifles. The TSX is a heck of an accurate bullet and I actually prefer they lose their petals. I like the grenade effect like a partition, I'm not hung up on picture perfect mushrooms. I think more internal damage is done when the NP and TSX lose their nose. But as stated I don't use them as I use turrets and want a bullet that hits at 2,000 fps minimum at distance. Between the 2 bullets and their BC's, the Nosler gives me another 100 yards. Striking velocity is also higher with a higher BC bullet and that's something the Barnes needs to have to be successful.
Dude,
1 Barnes is not the only one that has adjusted BCs over the years.
2 Flawed guide? Not that I've ever had one, but I've never had a problem developing safe loads(accurate with X bullets in some guns is another issue but TSX has solved that)
3 Never seen a failure in a Barnes YET, but have in Nosler and Sierra, and I shoot a TON of sierra in competition so I do like them
4 I guess you haven't shot much if you've never seen wrong bullets in the wrong box.. Hornady, Sierra come to mind instantly...
5 Have had impacts at distance, that was well under 2K fps. All animals quickly dead, bullet always expanded.
Nope its not a ballistic tip. And I don't come on blasting folks for choosing ballistic tips(try not to anyway) We all just have our different choice of results. I want penetration(TSX has been really impressing me with penetration on angled shots and quick deaths to boot) And I want the meat not to be damaged.
Others desire a large hole, instant bang flop or huge blood trails. Thats cool too. Just not for me at all.
If I decided to bash another bullet, I could make up a bunch of reasons like above, but they would suit my style of hunting.
I have yet to loose with a Barnes. I watched a loss with a sierra. And proof that the buck was lost was the fact he was killed 3 weeks later with the hole through both ribs and lungs.... doing just fine, but the Sierra never opened.. at 06 speeds and 125 yards or less....
Come on, having our own opinions is fine, just don't stir up lies that don't apply or apply to many other situations...
JWP-- yep they did it, mixed em up. I've seen it in Sierra too. Including a 6mm bullet in a 224 box!!
I've got a Barnes photo to post too, this weekend if I get time. Funny driving bands... But hey they all make mistakes. I may have been a rare one to see them due to rounds gone through in years of competition...
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Good points.
Personally, I could care less about the difference of the ballistic coefficient difference between these two bullets.
What I do care about, in order, are - performance on game, accuracy, cost and availability.
I'm a confirmed Barnes TSX fan. I have been for a decades. I am however, open minded enough to be willing to try new things.
Personally, I think a bit less penetration, if coupled with a significantly wider wound channel, might be a good thing.
I'm with the guys who care more about bullet performance at the low end of the velocity range - than the top end. When I was young, and shooting all manner of magnum cartridges with light bullets in an effort to get as many fps as possible - I would have cared about what a bullet did at impacts on big game in the 3200 to 3500 fps range. I no longer care about that.
Now, with a lifetime of hunting experience behind me, and a new-found preference for slower "classic" cartridges, and much lighter rifles - I want bullets that perform best at more moderate speeds.
Now, I really care about what a cartridge will do on big game when the bullet impacts the animal between 1800 and 2700 fps. If the new Nolser design is better in that velocity range, or equal to the Barnes TSX - and either cheaper, or more accurate in my rifles - I'll switch over to their product.
If anyone can build a better mouse-trap - I'm going to buy it.
Brian
Vernon BC Canada
"Nothing in life - can compare to seeing smiles on your children's faces."
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Go here: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1370699/page/0/fpart/1Note that Barnes sent another box of ammo. Furthermore, I'm one of those that purchased Version 3 of Barnes load manual that was laced with errors on many cartridges. I've never felt Barnes had the greatest quality control. I ended up having to buy a second, correct book, because there were so many cartridges in error, I didnt want a manual laced with pasted in corrections. You like TSX's great, but I dont feel your pain.
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[quote]1 Barnes is not the only one that has adjusted BCs over the years. True, and Sierra has done so due to it's bullet being a target bullet and down range BC needed to be known.
2 Flawed guide? Not that I've ever had one, but I've never had a problem developing safe loads(accurate with X bullets in some guns is another issue but TSX has solved that) For starters take a look at pg 280 where it states the 7 Rem Mag shooting a 140 grain bullet at 3,646 fps., it goes on...
3 Never seen a failure in a Barnes YET, but have in Nosler and Sierra, and I shoot a TON of sierra in competition so I do like them Since you brought it up, I've had horrible failures with Barnes in the early 90's shooting a 708 150X for elk. One year they penciled through the next year they were so brittle they shatterd on impact. This not only happened to me but also friends hunting elk out of Anaconda, MT. Barnes investigated their claim and ended up sending them a small crate of improved bullets. They solved the problem sure, then went to the TSX. Good for them
4 I guess you haven't shot much if you've never seen wrong bullets in the wrong box.. Hornady, Sierra come to mind instantly...Years ago, in my class, I won the AZ state MS championship using Sierra bullets never, ever, seen a wrong bullet in a wrong box.
5 Have had impacts at distance, that was well under 2K fps. All animals quickly dead, bullet always expanded. I'm sure you have, my personal limits (for elk) are 2,000 fps, that'just me.
[/quot
[quote]just don't stir up lies that don't apply or apply to many other situations... Only a punk would say that and you would not say that to my face, so why say it here? Facts are facts about Barnes, suck it up and accept it.
If you don't like my truthful comments don't read them. Just call Barnes and ask them about the problems they have had in the past. Dave Scoville of Wolf Publishing addressed all the problems I stated and more in an article he wrote for Handloader a few years ago. Why don't you call him a liar? You cast a small shadow here boy.
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I'm a confirmed Barnes TSX fan. I have been for a decades. Brian, the TSX bullet has only been out for few years. I want bullets that perform best at more moderate speeds. Brian, the Barnes bullet was renouned for staying together at hyper speeds and light for caliber driven at high speeds made Barnes reputation. Because of lower BC's in moderate cartridges Barnes would have a harder time opening up.
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I should have said "I have been a Barnes fan for decades." Since the TSX has come out - I've used those, more than their other older designs.
Even with the Barnes, be it the "Originals" the "X's" the "XLC's" or the "TSX's" (I've used all of them) I still prefer them to be moderate to heavy bullets for any cartridge I'm using.
Even with every new permutation of Barnes's all-copper bullets - I still have absolutely no use for the light-for-caliber rounds. For deer, who cares? It's bigger game that I want bullets like Barnes for anyways.
I base my observations on my experience.
For arguments sake - for Moose or Elk or the big bears - why would anyone use the lightest TSX? What possible benefit could you derive from such a practice?
Brian
Vernon BC Canada
"Nothing in life - can compare to seeing smiles on your children's faces."
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Pop-
We'd be happy to start house hunting in Bend for you! or you could move to lapine and save a couple hundred grand
Last edited by baltz526; 04/14/07.
The anti American Constitutional party (Democrat). Wants to dismantle your rights, limiting every aspect of your constitutional rights. Death by 1000 cuts is the tactic. Each cut bleeds constitutional rights to control you. Control is the goal.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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[Quote] by AggieDog
SU35, I am in your camp 100 percent. Your reasons are exactly why I for the life of me, cant say nice things about Barnes. I load TSX's, but I have privatly been waiting for someone else to come along and do it better, appears Nosler has done it.[Quote]
On what do you base your opion? Exactly how do you know that Nosler "has done it better" ? Have you tested this bullet? Did get samples to try before Mule Deer ?
_________________________
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Bring your northern @ss down here and I'll face to face you in a second...
Nah just kiddin. I'm not into the name calling stuff. Its childish IMHO.
I'll happily call anyone a liar if I believe it. I don't care if they are a writer or a fellow competitor.
Here is the key. You hate Barnes for some errors. I stated they all do it. You don't slam all the others. Only barnes. Thats my point. You have a beef with them and thats cool, it just doesn't reflect the total story.
Barnes has been on the cutting edge for many years. Without them we would not have the wealth of better bullets we have now. Failure goes with cutting edge. Ask the AMU who came to me to tweak up the 90s in the AR15. I was the cutting edge on figuring out how to use them. The very first 90s I shot hit the target oblong. Didn't give up though as tehre was a purpose for them.
BTW I admit being wrong-- I am not aware of the Barnes errors in the book--but its happend other places, I stand corrected there. but then again I've always started low, ran by pressure signs and accept what the chrono says. One cannot run blindly without common sense. Those that do have the gene pool cleaned from time to time. Did we go over the part about jumping off the bridge? Kinda kiddin but partly serious here too.
I should add my compliments on the class win! I've always been happy with my accomplishments also. They take a lot of work and it all to fall together on the correct day. And the medals on the wall for my wife and I from Camp Perry will always bring back memories. Especially coming off the line with the only perfect score at 600 military or civilian the one year. Of course the year I managed to beat Tubb at 600 in our state match, my service rifle over his T2K, was somewhat special too. More so that it was the first ever perfect score fired at 600 on that windy range... BTW have you been to the new West coast "Perry" matches yet? You might only shoot MS though. I tend to shoot a bit of this and that, but service rifle was my main thing. Something about not being able to shoot an AR15 (if I'm correct) just bothers me but they seem to be going over really well.
Let me try to go back real quick and get to the general point. ALL makers have issues. Nosler, Sierra, Hornady,Barnes, JLK,Berger etc... I've brought up issues to Berger, JLK,Hornady, and Barnes and as results had the new bullets sent in to replace and to test and relay if they were fixed or not.
Point being is its not just barnes. Thats the main point here. Errors happen to everyone. Its up to us to use common sense to stay safe. And to report things to the makers so they can fix them.
Seems like a hate thing to me really. Like I said I have used almost every bullet out there. Even noticed a box of Berts just now. I have uses for almost every brand out there and have seen the good and bad on almost all of them.
Boy(grinning) signing out.
Jeff
Oh yeah, if the new Nosler proves to be as good or better than the TSX, then we still have Barnes to thank for continuing to push the envelope.
Last edited by rost495; 04/14/07.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Bring your northern @ss down here and I'll face to face you in a second... Half of it's from Oklahoma, so you just may have more than you can handle...  Jeff, First, I appreciate your post and thank you. Anybody who can be on the same field as Tubb and take it to him has my kudo's! I really don't hate Barnes, I dog them and hope they will put a little more money into QC. I've worked in the industry and know how tuff it can be to please everybody. I just think Barnes can try harder. They have a track record.... But, like I said they are a heck of an accurate bullet. If Barnes made this new bullet of theirs to open up it would for me be the ultimate in my 6.5's for deer. Dia. Weight Description............ S.D. B.C. Cat. # NEW .264" 110 gr Banded Spitze .225 .452 26422 I can imagine driving this one at 3,600 fps out of my 264. Take care, Bob
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Pop-
We'd be happy to start house hunting in Bend for you! or you could move to lapine and save a couple hundred grand And have more than a 4000 square foot lot with a 3000 square foot house on it!!!!
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What is the difference in actual shooting performance between a bullet having a .523 BC over one "only" having a .453 BC? According to Nosler's own tables the difference (in a 180 grain 30-06 bullet, launched at 2800fps) the difference amounts to a WHOLE INCH - (when sighted in at 200 yards) at 400 yards away!
I have run a few numbers using the Infinity software to see what 200 grain bullets look like, on paper, for the .30-06. Assuming Nosler's BCs are correct and using a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps, the Accubond has 90 fps more velocity at 300 yards, and 100 fps at 350 yards, than the Partition. Now supposedly Partitions will open reliably down to 1800 fps or less, but with monolithics the general consensus is that they're tougher than Partitions, which might make for chancy expansion. So instead of working my butt off to find a safe, accurate, and reliable load that gives 2700 fps, I can have a mild load that still produces good velocity at 300 yards or whatever. The nice thing about BC is that its benefits don't necessarily cost that much. More juice downrange, without using more powder, or generating more pressure, or requiring a longer barrel, much less going to a bigger case. If we can have lower drag without onerous penalties elsewhere, why not? I really like the idea of there being a narrower velocity range between muzzle and max hunting range. Makes it easier to have one bullet perform well at both ends of the spectrum.
Last edited by CouchTater; 04/14/07.
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Bob
Now thats a good reason to dog the company. To make em even better! I'll go that one! Heck the accuracy issue was a tough one to start with. I think they have a great idea. Superb one in my books and I'll trade a bit of extra ballistic tip type expansion for retained weight and penetration. But I'm back to opinions. I think that R/D is expensive and it takes more than some field trials to work things out. The tsx has worked the accuracy issues out. Putting a plastic tip in the bullet tells me they are worried about expansion. I've personally never seen it. Except in my backstop. I have seen a couple of bullets recovered taht were not expanded. My personal experience comes from loading them for a lot of local folks. Each one recovered, from anywhere in the US and to Africa also, have been 98% weight and nice looking. My longest shot is 802 on a caribou. 2 shots,both hits. One lungs/liver, the 2nd spine. Both entries were 338 caliber, both about thumbnail size coming out, from the 338 win mag. I used my buddies rifle-- that rifle has seen a lot of AK game and backup shots. The guides up there are about fed up with plastic tip bullet failures. The bonded ones may turn that around, but a bonded one or more did miserably on a brownie last spring....While the 388 was loaned out and a hunter accidentally... shot through a 6 inch alder, then through a BC black bear, and out the other side through a small alder, never to be found and the blood trail was impressive enough.
Enough rambling there....
Dnot' know if I can take an Okie. Thats some tough country too at times.
We all get a bit passionate. But its good to see that we can work it out!! And end up in the same book, if not same sentence.
Have a great weekend!
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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do you guys think Nosler is going to introduce these at a "much" cheaper price then the MRX and then, when they start to catch on, raise thr price dramitically? I sure do. with that said, once they come out in a 130-140 .277 or 140 .284 i will try them. if Winchester loads them factory for my 30-06 i will try them in that also.
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Availability: Ammunition through Winchester will be first and it will be available prior to hunting season. Bullets will be available fourth quarter of this year. [/i] Hmm, what happened to Winchesters XP3 bullet?
The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution.
David Horowitz, Saul Alinsky and every woman I've ever argued with.
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Jw, I sure havent, but you can sure bet I will, as I CLEARLY am a Nosler fan first. I guess you will just have to deal with it, wont you.
Last edited by AggieDog; 04/14/07.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jw, I sure havent, but you can sure bet I will, as I CLEARLY am a Nosler fan first. I guess you will just have to deal with it, wont you. How am I going to have to DEAL with it?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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While the 388 was loaned out and a hunter accidentally... shot through a 6 inch alder, then through a BC black bear, and out the other side through a small alder, never to be found and the blood trail was impressive enough.
I wonder if that gent had tags for those two alders?
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do you guys think Nosler is going to introduce these at a "much" cheaper price then the MRX and then, when they start to catch on, raise thr price dramitically? I wouldn't expect that. It can be harder to sell a premium product at a bargain price point. After all, if Mercedes started offering a brand new $12,000 luxury coupe, would you expect it to be any better than a Kia? What they might do is set a high MSRP, then flood the big distributors with a lot of discounted inventory with the wink-wink approval to sell it at an "introductory discount". If it works, they capture a bunch of Barnes' market share and then can raise prices later back up to MSRP. But I think they've got to maintain a high MSRP otherwise the consumers will view the product as pedestrian rather than premium. I don't think they would succeed in charging more than Barnes, because Barnes has proven that a small shop can break even at Barnes' price level. If Nosler charges more than Barnes, Barnes and maybe new players would undercut the Nosler price.
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The simple addition of the poly tip to a basic mono-metal bullet makes a lot of sense. It's what Barnes should have done with their TSX instead of going off the deep end with the MRX. I'm really glad to see another manufacturer building a bullet along similar construction lines. I have always liked Barnes though I have had some events which have dampened my confidence in them. That, along with the fact that they keep changing their product offerings, has me put off right now so seeing another maker, and a highly reputed one, building a mono-metal bullet is great news.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Klik You are the first that I'd seen a failure on. Still keeps me sharp thinking about that and thanks for that photo. Don't take this as a negative, just another opinion. Funny thing, in competitive shooting most shooters ran Sierra. Who rarely changed anything. If you wanted to be on the cutting edge you had to go to a custom bullet maker. Thats exactly where I wanted to be to allow myself to win easier. Yet when larger name maker starts trying things to keep up and make things better, folks don't like that much. I can see why at times. But then I've never had an issue shooting up what I had and then starting over again. Things don't change much when they change. And you have to start over again each different lot of powder, cases, primers and lot of bullets anyway... I do not like the MRX idea since it has a d  mn core in it. A mono bullet cannot be out of balance due to a core issue(it could be from other issues) and the MRX only introduces another horror possibility to me.... Though I do like the tip thought for added insurance. If Nosler could do the mono, without fouling and hte tips,and be accurate, what more could one ask at the moment? Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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I would like to see Nosler or somebody develop a line of super-premiums (unleaded or otherwise) specifically designed for stodgy old non-magnum velocities. Instead of worrying about fragmentation at 3200 fps, make sure the thing mushrooms properly and reliably at 1800 fps. ... You should try the North Fork bullets. I suspect Trophy Bonded and A-Frames work just as well...
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The mono bullets that work the best ( shoot well and not foul) all have either grooves(TXS) or driving bands(North Fork, G.S. Custom) the Noslers will Probably have the same problems that all non grooved ( or non driving band) bullets suffer..........
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Folks seem to be very happy with all three of those super-premiums. But the NFs and A-Frames are rather blunt little suckers, and the TBBCs are just insanely expensive. At more than a dollar a bullet, finding the best load for a rifle could run into triple digits. And what if I go through 100 bullets and don't even find one good load?
I'm all for spending more money for better bullets but there's a point where its cheaper to buy steak than work up a load and shoot it.
I did see mention somewhere that NF may be working on a more streamlined spitzer design. That would be awesome.
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When it comes to monometal bullet technology Barnes and Nosler are late commers.These guys have been at it a whole lot longer. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/02hv.html There was alot of gum flapping on Accurate reloading a few years ago about people not getting there orders from SA.All I can say is that I've delt with Gina just recently.And had dealings with Gerard years ago.I've never had problems getting bullets. dave
![[Linked Image]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Logo_Schmidt_%26_Bender.jpg) Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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If you are using a solid copper bullet, I could buy that, but Nosler is not using a solid copper bullet, or they claim a alloy (time will tell). It will be fun determining if they are a decent bullet. That's half the fun when a new bullet comes onto the market.
Depending on where Nosler prices their bullet, it could mean price concessions from Barnes. I always see it as a winning situation when a bullet maker brings out a new bullet to compete with a similar offering.
Last edited by AggieDog; 04/15/07.
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When it comes to monometal bullet technology Barnes and Nosler are late commers.These guys have been at it a whole lot longer. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/02hv.html There was alot of gum flapping on Accurate reloading a few years ago about people not getting there orders from SA.All I can say is that I've delt with Gina just recently.And had dealings with Gerard years ago.I've never had problems getting bullets. dave Absolutely! Look. http://gsgroup.co.za/fotis.html
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Nosler has always shown professionalism in statements with their bullets. When they say a BC is a certain number it's because it is.
Unlike Barnes;
Who for years "claimed" inflated BC's.
Produced a flawed reloading guide.
Made brittle bullets, used flawed materials, at more than a few times.
They can't even put the right bullets in the right box, just read the recent thread here.
Not to mention that skewed video of a bullet hitting some
watered up gel.
I've tested plenty of Barnes bullets in my rifles. The TSX is a heck of an accurate bullet and I actually prefer they lose their petals. I like the grenade effect like a partition, I'm not hung up on picture perfect mushrooms. I think more internal damage is done when the NP and TSX lose their nose. But as stated I don't use them as I use turrets and want a bullet that hits at 2,000 fps minimum at distance. Between the 2 bullets and their BC's, the Nosler gives me another 100 yards. Striking velocity is also higher with a higher BC bullet and that's something the Barnes needs to have to be successful.
My own opinion of Barnes is that the company is imperfect but has very good products in the TSX and MRX lines. The XLC�s are the only �X� bullets I�ve hunted with. The XLC�s got a �D� grade the one time I used them on big game, antelope, and while results on coyotes resulted in two instantly dead doggies the differences in the bullet channels were night and day apart. While I load TSX�s for several rifles I have not taken any game with them and tend to revert to North Fork bullets. The new MRX has performed well in water jug tests and eliminates any lingering concerns I have about the TSX�s. Like you I have found the TSX�s to be very accurate and I have tried them in a number of rifles. When it comes to B.C.s, I don�t pay much attention to what the books say � different rifles shooting the same bullets at the same speeds will generate different measured B.C. results due to a variety of other factors, and B.C.�s vary with velocity - the only reliable test is in your rifle at different ranges, and that applies to any bullet. Barnes is not the only company to get data wrong in their manuals � Speer has made a number of errors that I have called them about. In the end analysis, no reloader should rely on a single source of information. IF Barnes used �watered up� gel to make a demonstration video of their TSX bullets, I couldn�t care less. It would be different if they claimed to have used some standardized mix and did not, but as far as I know they have not made any claims about the gel at all. Brittle bullets? I guess you�re probably not a fan of cup-and-core bullets at high speed, either, since they can disintegrate. The BT�s come to mind. I�ve never seen an X-type bullet�s shank come apart so I�m confused � you complain about �brittle bullets� where the petals come off but then say you prefer it when they do? Getting bullets mixed up is not a good thing but Barnes is not the only one to have done so and in the end it is up to the reloader to make sure the bullets he is seating are what they are supposed to be, just as it is up to the hunter to make sure that they don�t jam a .30-06 into a .270. Mistakes happen but the final inspection point � and the most important � is at the reload bench. By the way, my Barnes #3 (6th printing) does not have the errors mentioned on page 280. One other thing, - a B.C. of .453 for a 180g .308� TSX, loaded to 3038fps in my rifle, results in your preferred impact velocity of over 2,000fps out past 550 yards. I don�t need another 100 yards. Lastly, someone mentioned that Barnes had gone �overboard� (or something like that) with the MRX design. IMHO I think they have done an excellent job. The Delrin tip ensures expansion and the tungsten core helps keep both bullet length and COL down � all of which I appreciate. I am switching from the TSX to the MRX where ever possible.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Hey Dave, I like the looks of those bullets. One thing I noticed immediately is a larger diameter in the hollow point.
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What I find real interesting is how Nosler, who arguably already has the gold standard bullet, in the Partition, already has an excellent bonded bullet design, saw the need to come up with a serious challenge to the Barnes TSX/MRX design.
To me, Nosler is an excellent example of a well run company. Always forward thinking, always re-inventing themselves.
While Sierra on the other hand is living in the past and in my opinion is being left on the "porch".
If you can't run with the big dogs, you had better stay on the porch.
I wonder how long Sierra can continue this?
Tony
Last edited by hicountry; 04/15/07.
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I got one just one 277 150 grain Partition in a box of 7mm 150 N.P.So it can happen to anybody.Glad it wasn't the other way.Another reason that I inspect and weigh each bullet.
As for the E tip.It looks like a heck of a bullet.
Last edited by 7 STW; 04/15/07.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Hey Couch
I never thought that hunting was cheaper than steak anyway...
BTW I don't do anything but load testing with premium bullets(wanna talk cost lets talk 50 bmg stuff.....) and then verify the drops and so on.
I practice enough with other guns and even if I didn't I would not blast thousands of rounds downrange with expensive bullets while practicing....
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Hicountry, well stated. I was a huge fan of the Sierra boattail in the 80's out of my 270, but, other bullet manufacturers kept improving, or coming out with more innovative bullets, so I basically stopped shooting Sierra's. Having said that, I do have a load worked up in my 7-08 with a 120 gr Sierra ProHunter that I have no doubt will make a fine blacktail rig. You are correct at least from my view, that Sierra needs to install some bullet updates to their hunting bullet line.
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... I do not like the MRX idea since it has a d mn core in it. ... Though I do like the tip thought for added insurance. If Nosler could do the mono, without fouling and hte tips,and be accurate, what more could one ask at the moment? Jeff Since the MRX is a hunting bullet I don't mind the core. Nosler could add grooves to reduce friction in the barrel, resulting in higher velocity potential. Of course then the bullet might be so long they would have to add a tungsten core to keep OAL down...
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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When it comes to monometal bullet technology Barnes and Nosler are late commers.These guys have been at it a whole lot longer. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/02hv.html There was alot of gum flapping on Accurate reloading a few years ago about people not getting there orders from SA.All I can say is that I've delt with Gina just recently.And had dealings with Gerard years ago.I've never had problems getting bullets. dave Hi Dave, The GS Custom are great bullets and they want the petals to come off. They advocate shooting them fast enough to blow the petals off when they impact  .
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Jwp475, what's their pricing? Are they in the range of Barnes?
I like the looks of the MRX, I think that is a good design, with the plastic tip insuring the bullet opens up.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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dave7mm, could give you pricing of the GS Custom, I believe....Dave also has some copper bullets that he made of his own design,and they work perfectly for him on Hogs...
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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POP were you not a moderator \ promoter on the Groove bullet forum also?
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OP
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Hicountry, well stated. I was a huge fan of the Sierra boattail in the 80's out of my 270, but, other bullet manufacturers kept improving, or coming out with more innovative bullets, so I basically stopped shooting Sierra's. Having said that, I do have a load worked up in my 7-08 with a 120 gr Sierra ProHunter that I have no doubt will make a fine blacktail rig. You are correct at least from my view, that Sierra needs to install some bullet updates to their hunting bullet line. Aggie: I have spoken to them before about making a premium bullet and they said, "We already make a premium bullet. We make the gameking!". Last time I spoke or dealt with them. They do amke accurate bullets though.
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OP
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Groove bullets?
Yes. I helped Don moderate the site.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Coyote
Unfavorable accuracy results with the partition lead me to stay away from cores. I'm sure they can be just fine, I'm just a bit spooked. Doesn't mean i wont' try the MRX though.
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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POP,
Sorry if this has already been asked.
Do you know the OL of the 180 grain .308 bullet?
Thanks,
Sam
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Pop,
I agree with you on the accuracy of Sierra bullets, no argument from me on that.
Like aggie, I also used Sierra in the 80's, but ditched them do to erratic results (I am sure you have seen the pics I have posted from time to time of trashed Sierra's).
I am sure they are losing market share in the hunting bullet catagory, you can see that from their latest advertisements in mags.
My business philosophy has always been if you are not moving forward you are moving backwards. There is no such thing as standing still and gaining. You always go backwards while standing still.
Tony
Last edited by hicountry; 04/15/07.
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They're not cheep. But they do out penetrate an x.Everytime. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/orderhv.htmldve
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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I'm betting both Nosler and Barnes fans win with Nosler getting into the fray. Afterall, look how Barnes has the MRX priced per box of 20, and if Nosler's offering is the same or less than the TSX, then it's real simple: Barnes will have to make a price concession, or they wont sell very many MRX's, and could lose market share of the TSX to Nosler. Point is, it doesnt matter who you favor, we all win. Don't you just love competition.
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rost495 �
I understand the core thing. In my limited tests the MRX seem to have better than MOA potential but I need to get out of the wind with a good rest to see how much better.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I'm betting both Nosler and Barnes fans win with Nosler getting into the fray. ... Don't you just love competition. Yup!
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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OP
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I am working on getting details on the OAL of the e-tip.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I am working on getting details on the OAL of the e-tip. OK, thanks.
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POP,
Thanks. I'll look forward to it.
Steve
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Thanks for giving us the play by play on this one POP.
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Has anyone here shot the GScustom bullets?
It isn't energy that kills. It's holes!
Dogzapper
A fine is a tax for doing wrong, a tax is a fine for doing well
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I've shot quite a few of Gerards bullets, and still have quite the stash. They work as advertised, although I'm not sure the listed B.C.'s hold water.
Anyway, very easy to work up loads for, and kill critters just fine. Now that there is a US distributor, they are something to consider again, though I must admit that the TSX kills animals just fine, too. FWIW, Dutch.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
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Has anyone here shot the GScustom bullets? YUP.. They are awesome. http://gsgroup.co.za/fotis.html
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Campfire Kahuna
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Coyote, keep me updated, that might mean night shooting!! I have to do it here time to time.
7mm-- not flaming, but exactly how is it that a similar bullet outpenetrates an X series? I'm very curious. Seems to me that just about all the similar ones, barnes, the GS whatever they are(had not seen them that I recall till now), new nosler and old failsafes should do just about exactly the same?
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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I have always wanted to try some in some caliber but man they are spendy. I will have to save up and bite the bullet. lol!
It isn't energy that kills. It's holes!
Dogzapper
A fine is a tax for doing wrong, a tax is a fine for doing well
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The GS Customs are the most accurate bullet thus far in my 416 WBY, and Gerard and Gina are a pleasure to do business with.
I think what is hindering them is lack of representation on this side of the world.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Coyote, keep me updated, that might mean night shooting!! I have to do it here time to time.
7mm-- not flaming, but exactly how is it that a similar bullet outpenetrates an X series? I'm very curious. Seems to me that just about all the similar ones, barnes, the GS whatever they are(had not seen them that I recall till now), new nosler and old failsafes should do just about exactly the same?
Jeff Jeff, GS Cutom advocates shooting thier bullets fast enough to blow the petals of,this leaves a smaller frontal area,as well as a flat point solid that is now shoulder stabilized with the petals gone and increases penetration..........
Last edited by jwp475; 04/16/07.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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[quote=jwp475 Jeff, GS Cutom advocates shooting thier bullets fast enough to blow the petals of,this leaves a smaller frontal area,as well as a flat point solid that is now shoulder stabilized with the petals gone and increases penetration..........[/quote]
I concur. Look what kind of damage a non- expanding cast bullet can do!
Do not discount flat points at all!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Good info!
Thanks, Jeff
to add... dang funny if an X looses a petal or more, failure starts being the shout, then GS says its the way it should be. I"d say I'd not particularly want the petals off, but it won't hurt that much either.
Jeff
Last edited by rost495; 04/17/07.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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OK I have to admit I can�t wait. I would like to see it in a 150Gr .308 & a 200Gr .338.
But I am on board� If the price is a little more than Partitions then it�s a winner�.
Frankly it hah been a while since I have used something other than a Nosler.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger
Friedrich Nietzsche
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I just bought a box of 50 from the Nosler factory in Bend Or.I pd $33.00 for a box of 180 gr 30 cal
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Now that's not too bad a price. I might just have to stop in Bend when I'm on my scouting trip down there next week.
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Have they said what caliber/weight configurations they are going to produce? Would love to see a 125gr .308 and a 110gr 6.5...
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Got my first box off the brown truck yesterday. Yeppers 180 gr 308 caliber. Gotta load up a few in the '06 this weekend. Sweet lookin but they gotta shoot better than the TSX or out they go.
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This past season I was hunting elk with 180g factory e tips in my m70 300wsm. They killed my little buck fine (actually, I've never seen so much damage even w/ 12ga), didn't shoot any at elk. I did take the heads off a couple grouse with them in the 60 - 80 yard range though, it's a good way to relieve frustration. My 180g PT reloads aren't quite as accurate. I'll be loading them for sure next season.
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Campfire Ranger
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I would hope for boxes of at least 50, but would prefer 100 counts.
1Minute
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And why did you revive a two year old thread?.........
Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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