Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Home defense input please

David Walter - while I agree with most of your assesment, subsonic 300 Blackout is about the last round I'd want to recommend for SD or anything beyond a small niche of specialized hunting or target picking. It's better if you're at least using a bullet specifically designed for subsonic expansion, but still not great. You get really deep penetration through meat and all sorts of other barriers, and very marginal terminal performance.
I'm not one to normally get into these cartridge or caliber debates for SD, but subsonic rifle bullets are different enough that I feel it worth addressing.

In the same gun, keep the suppressor on and just use supersonic loads with something like the 125 Ballistic Tip or the 110gr Barnes black tip; performance is hugely improved, over penetration is greatly reduced, and it's still plenty quiet enough.

The cops and BP agents that I know who carry shotguns use #4 buckshot, which is what I have used in my home defense shotguns for many years.

One time, while we were still down on the ranch, BP landed a helicopter on our lawn because they had seen several people go into the cienega down in front of our house and disappear. They managed to get all but one who had apparently vanished.

After the illegals were all in BP vehicles and being hauled away, I was talking to the agents that were getting back into the helicopter. One of them asked if I had a shotgun for the house. I said that I had a 12-gauge Ithaca Deerslayer with a 20" cylinder bore barrel. He grinned and tossed me a couple of boxes of 12-gauge shells. They were Winchester Super X #4 buck. I still have a few left in one box on my ammo shelf.

All of the shotgun discussion is fine except the OP said she’s recoil sensitive and shoots an AR well.

Same with the “average housewife” comment.

The OP said she shoots an AR well. What does “the average house wife” have to do with anything?

For that matter, I’ll bet 90% to 95% of the people I know, gun people and not gun people, can’t operate a firearm under stress.

That’s why big bucks live to fight another day.

And an even smaller fraction when there is, or is expected to be, incoming fire.

As I used to say to my non-boxing friends when I boxed golden gloves, the big bag and the speed bag hitting you back changes everything.

Keep it simple.

that being the case, have you had an opportunity to look at the reasonbly priced CX4 Storm 8000 from Berretta in 45ACP? A pistol caliber carbine in 45ACP that is not too expensive, could even mount a light or a laser light combination on it, Only place it falls a bit flat is 8 round magazine. I would opt for the 45Acp indoors myself, its not as deafening as the 9mm or 40sw. There are other pistol caliber carbines as well, but a pistol caliber carbine would be a good idea for your wife.

JR carbines is another about $800 IIRC

My ex was recoil sensitive, but not the least bothered by any of several 20 bore guns. Shotguns are as simple as it gets and small shot will leave a mark.

#3 buck, 20 ga, 25 yards:

For HD with the 300BO, I'd lean toward the 110gr VMax or 110gr Varmageddon rounds. Modest recoil, good penetration, pretty destructive.

My wife too prefers the Beretta storm, hers is in 9mm topped w/ an Aimpoint Micro red dot. Virtually no recoil and very dependable w/ Speer 124gr.+P Ammo. She can put 6 into 6" at 3 yards or 25 yards in very little time on demand. She enjoys shooting it and will practice w/out hesitation.

From what I have seen over the years shotgunners will do OK w/ a shotgun for self defense. Most people will be disappointed if not regular practitioners.


mike r

The Ruger PC-9 is very shootable. Put a Leupold Delta Point or a Vortex Venom red dot sight on it and it’s really easy to get hits.

all the little pistol carbines are easier to shoot and without as much muzzle blast, 45ACP makes it a really pleasant gun to shoot and its bite is a lot worse than its bark.

Rather think that is the case regardless of one's chosen platform. In home SD is a circumstance wherein the metrics are quite variable and unpredictable. Day time? Night time? Lights on or off? Knock at the door? Breaking glass in a back room? You don't know the where, when and what before the fact, that is driven by the perp. If one is not practiced in the discipline of instinctive shooting things are kind of up in the air a bit, no?

With that said I'm familiar with my home and property, as you all are. I know the distances in the house and what lies behind those walls, just like you. What I don't know is whether I will pop a cap on my feet, laying down or what... I do know that I'm not going to give my position away at night with a laser or red dot sight. I also know that I've a better chance of grazing (read: inflict a truck load of pain) with a scattergun than a pistol or rifle. The first objective of self defense it to incapacitate the perp and a load of shot in the face, chest, legs or gut at 30-50 feet will do that in spades. Center of mass at 30' will leave an orange size hole thru and thru, end of debate. Smack someone out 25-35 yards with a load of #5 shot and you just put a 20-30" thumbprint on them, or about head to belly button. They won't give you any grief after that welcome.

And if it's night time, lights out, sights are useless unless you turn on a light. Brilliant strategy that.

Long time back I observed something I think relevant to this discussion and perfectly on point about instinctive shooting. My door gunners carried M-60 machine guns that were hand held, not pintle mounted. Standing orders for them, if we received fire they returned it. If they saw a target they shot it, if not they simply hosed down the neighborhood. The interesting part was how effective they were with first round hits on one target, then switching to another target, etc. until we were in the clear. None of them were hosing the neighborhood, that wasn't their approach. Seldom fired more than 5-6 shots per target before moving on to the next and they very seldom missed. Ranges varied from 30 to perhaps 75 yards most times and the targets varied from 1 to company/battalion size units. It didn't work like Hollywood thinks, and will not in your home.

Not sure why people are suggesting pistols and other platforms. As stated above, if you're not a regular practitioner of the shotgun, it's hard to operate under stress.

And, it's hard to go plinking with.

An AR with 55 grain VMAX bullets would hurt an intruder just fine, and not break any banks.

Or the Hornady 55 grain SP.

My wife's not the best pistol shooter either, so I built her a 10.5 inch carbine gas ar in 5.56 with a brace, and cerokoted it her favorite burnt bronze. The third point of contact makes a huge difference for her. With a full mag of Varmint bullets, it covers a lot of scenarios without over penetration.

Yes 5.56 and one shot is permanent hearing damage

The shotgun has been portrayed as the ultimate self defense solution for my entire lifetime. Much of that lifetime has been spent studying and professionally practicing stopping bad guys and repairing folks that need fixing. There is a good reason that the shotgun has been relegated to a lesser status by the military and LE.

Since 9/11 the art of FISH [Fighting In Someones' House] has been elevated massively and the lessons learned are readily available. Wives usually require assistance in learning, everyone needs training and frequent practice. Guns are only as good as the person using them.


mike r

You want a light fast bullet that will come apart on drywall, like a 40gr V-Max. At least a carbine length barrel will keep the speed up to make sure the bullet comes apart. You also want a suppressor to avoid the pain and disorientation of muzzle blast in a confined space. An AR gets a hair long with a suppressor on. So, look at the Kel-Tec RDB.

Some might suggest an AR pistol. I'd rather use an AR pistol as a club than fire it indoors unsuppressed without at least two kinds of ear protection. Not even exaggerating.

The bullpup + suppressor is a lot of expense and bother for a purpose you will not likely ever actually have. An AR-style shotgun is a more practical purchase. A more traditional home defense shotgun is more practical yet. You just need to get the lowest recoil trainer loads for practice.

I worked at Walmart for several years. Our store sold guns. I sold several Mossberg youth 20 gauge shotguns to husbands who wanted a home defense gun for the little lady of the house.

kwg

Women with recoil issues will do well with a pistol caliber carbine, and please do not over look a Ruger 10/22 loaded with CCI Velocitors in a 25 round magazine.

Pretty much what we have done. POF Renegade Plus 300 Blackout AR Pistol -w- 10.5" barrel and loaded with 194gr Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion Subsonics. Wife loves shooting it and handles it suprisingly well. Waiting on an Omega 9k can.

After firing and being around others firing an AR inside an enclosed area a few times I decided that was not a wise thing to do. Not only is the report quite loud and potentially disorienting causing hearing loss for at least the short term but there is a fairly substantial shock wave that is disturbing in its own right. I was wearing ear plugs the first time I was in this situation, ear plugs and ear muffs the following ones and still the experience was quite unpleasant. A suppressor helps with both of these factors but it can make a gun a bit unwieldy and add a bit of expense. The department added a few H&K MP-5s to the mix as a replacement.

These experience prompted me to chose a different platform for the house carbine. Initiall it was an M1 carbine loaded with soft points. It has mild report and concussion even indoors and it was light and pretty handy for my wife to use. The negative was the safety position as my wife often forgot which way to take it off and sometimes hit the mag release instead.

I replaced the M1 with a 9mm Beretta CX-4 a few years ago. I load it with 147 gr Federal HST which has worked well on a couple of 4 legged pests so far. It is even shorter and lighter than the M1 and it uses the same mags as the Beretta M92 I had as a nightstand gun. The safety is of the same style and position as the wife's shotguns so no fumbling for that device.

With any weapon choice, regular practice is needed to gain/maintain even a modicum of proficiency. The shotgun is no magic wand and needs as much practice as any other choice. Picking something that is quickly and easily remembered is preferred.

Looks to me, someone just want's to have an AR.

Buying guns for the Grandkids work. Why not the wife? Ha!