Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting 22 hornet with cast boolits

Anyone doing this, What powder and how much, Gas checks? How much velosity? What style of boolit? I would apprediate any and all info. Thanks in advance.

I'd appreciate info too, something on my list of things to try when I get the opportunity.

I'm glad someone else is interested in cast bullets for the hornet. There is some info to be found on the web. I have tried 56 gr cast RCBS with gas checks. I expect the velocity is pretty healthy. This one is from the net.


LYMAN 225450R/46g
4 Unique ------- 1692 fps --- 0.78 inch @ 100 yd
2.7 Bullseye ---- 1327 fps --- 1 ragged hole @ 25 yd
3.6/4756 ------- 1113 fps --- 0.90 inch @ 50 yd

LYMAN 22596/46FN
5 Unique ------- 2150 fps --- 0.75 inch 100 yd
9.6/2400 ------- 2401 fps --- 0.67 inch 100 yd
11.6/2400 ------ 2791 fps --- 0.95 inch 100 yd

Lyman 225462/56 gr
11.6/2400 ------ 2728 fps --- 1.3 inch 100 yd
13.6/WW680 -- 2820 fps --- 0.75 inch 100 yd
11/ReLoader #7 - 2220 fps --- 0.75 inch 100 yd
11.2/H4227 ----- 2502 fps --- 0.69 inch 100 yd
11/WW680 ------ 2520 fps --- 0.90 inch 100 yd

LYMAN 225438/49gr
5 Unique -------- 2112 fps --- 1.4 inch 100 yd
Aug-00 --------- 2222 fps --- 1.3 inch 100 yd
12/ReLoader #7 - 2540 fps --- 1.1 inch 100 yd


I did find that casting those little bullets quite difficult but fun when they come out right.

I am planning a slightly different approach, that being to hot swage a harder alloy, leaving out the lube and crimp groove, for more weight. The lube will sit in the space in front of the gas check and on the bullet itself, 22lr style. This is to gain more weight for length.

As you can see, cast bullets in 22 hornet = a heck of a lot more power!

I don't resize my cases. I give the case mouth an internal chamfer, fill the case to the seating depth, make a little paper towel cup thing (easy to do) in the case mouth then seat the bullet. The number of ply's used is determined by requirement to hold the bullet firm without expanding the neck. The excess paper towel is then trimmed off by inserting another, empty case (fired 223 works good) over the seated bullet and twisting to cut off the paper. I lube the cases and have found no signs of high pressure - moderate primer flattening, no case stretch and penetration in pine a lot more than jacketed bullets.

Some might find this too laborious but to me its fun.

I load 11.5gr AR2205 (H4227)

Hope this helps.

303Guy

303Guy:
I am confused about the following quotes. Would you elaborate for me?

"to hold the bullet firm without expanding the neck"
Are you saying that you don't want any neck tension from case stretch?

"I lube the cases"
I thought it was a no-no to have lube on the cases when they are fired, as that would keep them from sticking to the sides of the chamber.

Thanks
Smitty of the North

I want firm bullet hold with minimum neck expansion so that the cartridge will reliably chamber, relying on the compression of the paper cup to grip the bullet. This relies on there being sufficient �spring� in the neck area to set a small clearance in the chamber, after firing. Some of this clearance is what I use for tension.

This should near perfectly align the bullet with the bore. I expect the bullet remains in alignment after firing, until the bullet engages the rifling. I have recovered bits of paper cup in my firing tube, so I assume the paper does not burn away. (The paper should also act as a lubricant).

If I could find a high temperature, thermo resin to �glue� the bullet in the paper cup and case, I expect I would be able to eliminate possible inconsistencies in case grip on the bullet.



I checked with an ex-WWII armourer/gun builder/production manager of a firearm manufacturer and he assured me that the bolt of my rifle was designed to hold the full thrust of the fired cartridge. We were discussing the 303 Lee Enfield at the time. My 303 cases have lasted me 25 years with no case stretch.

I lube my hornet cases to prevent case stretch and it works for me. I found the load at which case stretch begins then backed off. I do check for other signs of pressure like primer flattening and following reloading tables. (I like a powder that is too bulky to overload a case).

303Guy



This eliminates any chance of deforming the case during resizing of the case or seating of the bullet and gives better case life.

303Guy (Hope this is helpful)

I have worked with several Hornets and K-Hornets using three different moulds, all 46-48gr. As you know cast is very different than lead! However, I load 12-13grs of Hodgdon Lil' Gun, these are loads just like the jacketed ones.
You must use heat treated wheelweights and a superior lube. LBT Blue lube is the best, but I've had issues with the gent, so I make my own. Alox will work if temps are low and you don't shoot a lot.
If you want light, 22Mag-22LR power then 3 grs of Unique works great.
Remember, Hornet diameters vary! Browning uses .223 diameter. Loads on the heavy end are for .224's, be careful and have your barrel slugged. Please let me know what you are looking for and maybe we can help!
HawkI

HawkI

I am aiming to increase the power of my hornet by using cast or swaged bullets. The logic is that cast bullets are a lot denser plus more mass is located on the periphery (if it does not have deep lube grooves) so stability should be better and the velocity is higher (also good for stability). May plan is to machine a die to produce a 60 gr gas checked, cup tipped, semi-round nose bullet. I expect to be able to drive this bullet to about 2700 fps. I have no idea how such a bullet would perform on living tissue. I dare say the prototype bullets are going to be turned.

303Guy

303guy:
I can't say that I understand all that, but Thanks for your indulgence, anyhoo.

Smitty of the North

SmittyoftheNorth

I always seem to do things differently.

I came across a regular hornet reload today, which illustrates my point perfectly. I set the cartridge in a lathe to demonstrate the run-out.

I have some pictures of my procedure but cannot post them.
Perhaps I can e-mail them to you if you are interested?

303Guy

303,
Everything you are trying to do is possible, but... Hornets also vary with twist rates. You are correct, cast bullets are denser, but shorter as well. Depending on the design, I have had so so luck getting jacketed bullets as light as 30 grs to stabilize!
As for sizing, if all are to be shot out of the same rifle, barely neck size as long as the length of your bullet. I have never had bad luck doing this!
NEI and Lyman, plus many custom makers can make you an excellent mould up to 50 grs for a 1 in 16 inch twist. What gun are you using, as it makes a difference.(?) 1-14 and 1-16 inch twists are out there.
Using Lil'Gun, I can't get enough in the case to cause pressure issues. R-P cases can hold up to 14 grs., loaded with a 46 gr LBT LFN, will shoot just like jacketed 3/4to 1/2 in, and speeds will be around 2,900 fps. Unlike handguns, lead in rifles offers no extra velocity, simply because you are fighting more barrel length and generating more Heat and Friction, the causes of leading.
When using HTWW as an alloy with striking velocities over 2,300 fps, this alloy can fragment about half the length of the bullet! the base will stay intact and will really penetrate! Lino will fragment a little more. You can also put a little pure lead in the nose and get performance not unlike a Nosler Partition. We are getting crazy here, but you see the possibilities. The Hornet is no different than any other cartridge, except it is short. Yes runout matters, with cast it matters even more and I repeat, try to neck size only! If you have runout issues then your chamber is out of alignment! Or the expander is! You can check the expander with your gauge. If that is the case, buy new dies or neck size without the expander, then put the expander in loose and slowly push into the neck.
Know your twist rate, the diameter of your barrel, etc. Shooting lead will teach you that you can't cheat. Jacketed bullet shooters would be amazed at the precision they could get if they were forced to get the dimensions of their guns and bullets! I like lead. Cheaper, fun, more bangs. You are correct, Gas checks are a necessity. If you are a good machinist, make your design, but lighten it a touch!

HawkI

Thanks for all the info.

The data I posted above gave me the impression that cast bullets in the hornet shoot faster.
See Lyman 225462/56 gr -- 13.6/WW680 -- 2820 fps --- 0.75 inch @ 100 yd

".. 46 gr LBT LFN .. speeds .. around 2,900 fps" - Sounds pretty fast!
".. will shoot just like jacketed .. � to � in .." - That's pretty impressive!

My rifle is an Anschutz 1700 with 1-16 inch twist. The barrel is corrosion damaged on the breach side. I have not had an opportunity to thoroughly test the rifle for accuracy yet.

I have fired a two shot group with 46gr 218 BEE SUPER-X's clipping at 50yds. (Means nothing I know but it does get the heart rate up!) These bullets gave me my best groups in my mini-14, 3/4 inch @ 100 m I think.

I have found the powder charge/bullet weight limits (based on case elongation) by firing into a firing tube. I have an old batch of RCBS 56gr bullets and have found that I can load them with the same charge as a 45gr Speer SPS bullet.

That would be 11.9gr AR2205 (H4227) - WHICH IS AN OVERLOAD IN OTHER GUNS!

I know that sounds a lot but it may be due to the batch or the fact that the barrel is over size nearer the chamber and the chamber is a bit oversize. I found the max load by measuring, among other points, the case length and checking other signs. The cast bullet penetrates phone books quite a bit better than the Speer at muzzle distances.

303Guy

303guy,
How many times have you fired these loads in these cases? I used to use H110 in Hornets until I chrony'd the loads one day! After 3-4 firings I had the beginnings of separations!(the dreaded white ring). I think you are just a tad over pressure, but your smarter than the average bear because you are at least monitoring it.
What is the seating depth of your cast load? Lyman and other mass produced moulds put all of the bullet mass at the rear, which helps heavier bullets out of slow twists because they are short, but these bullets must also seat deeper and you know what that does with pressures! You are using a clip as well, I believe, so can you touch the lands?
I'm sorry but I have very little experience with some of the powders listed in the Hornets. I pretty much use Lil' Gun in all loads in this caliber.
I have fired cast loads in the following calibers: 22 Horn, K-Horn, 222 Rem., 270 Win, 308 Win, 338 Win, 35 Whelen, 416 Rigby, 45/70. These are all rifle loads. Please be aware that in none of these rifle loads can cast bullets be driven faster than jacketed ones without exceeding pressures! The good news is that they can be driven just as fast, provided the bullet is hard enough and lube is working properly, some need fillers though to prevent leading.
I pretty much stick to all lead in handguns. Yes, velocities in handguns can be much higher than jacketed. In rifles, most lubes will not withstand the heat generated by going through long tubes repeatedly. As barrel temps increase lead gets softer, even if its heat treated as lead hardness fluctuates with temperature! Increased velocities in rifles can mean an increase of pressure due to friction. The lube also has to coat that long tube with film to have the next bullet ride on it.
The good news is that, as you have noticed, lead penetrates better, can be explosive, and can do what we want by dictating alloys. Does your Lyman and RCBS moulds drop bullets well? LBT and NEI make some awesome 22 cal. moulds and make casting even more fun! Sorry if I bored the rest of you! Good luck and good shooting all!

HawkI

On the contrary - I am fascinated.
Thanks for taking the trouble.
My experiences are somewhat limited and then that was a long time ago. My Anschutz is just such a sweet rifle to shoot with that I want to make it do stuff it wasn't designed for. If I could get another one with a good barrel I would wildcat this one for bigger stuff. 6mm hornet, maybe. Not enough capacity for 25 hornet for hunting.

The few test cases I have fired would be 4 firings. One case I fired with increasing loads until I detected case length stretch. At first detection the growth was 0.1mm the next level gave me 0.2mm then backed off two levels and no stretch. No other signs of excess pressure but if I had a weaker gun I would go lower. To get that case stretch I had to load a 55gr bullet onto a full case that did not fit the magazine! No signs of immanent case head separation.

I lost a few 303 Brit cases to head separation after about 3 or 4 firings. I solved that by lubing the cases with case lube. That was 25 years ago and I still have some of the original cases - who knows how many firings. Those cases now fail to neck splitting. (I did not shoot thousands of rounds - hundreds maybe). When I had worked up my favourite max load I found it listed as moderate.

I can touch the lands with the bullet seated quite far out. A charge of 11.9gr AR2205 stops the bullet at just enough to fit the magazine OAL 45mm. The cast bullets only just cover the lube groove.

What twist would you recommend on a replacement barrel? I past up a 222 barrel because it was too short. There is a guy who rebarrelled to 1 in 10 and shortened the neck to shoot boat tail spitzers - Taranah Hornet? I like heavier slower bullets but the numbers indicate 50gr as the most efficient bullet for the hornet - most powerful, and flattest shooting beyond 150yds.

Have you tried non-lube grooved cast bullets with 22lr type lube?
In the past I have recovered bullets of all my caliber still loaded with lube. So a shallower lube groove would shorten the bullet right?

I will get around to checking the cast bullet designs you have suggested. I am plotting a lead bullet-making machine of unconventional design. I don't want to let the world know about it yet 'though, over the web. It does involve lathe work.

I hope I am not boring you. You have a lot of experience I can only dream of. Thanks for being patient.

303Guy

303guy,
You are not boring me, I joined because I wanted to learn and share ideas just like everyone else!
It is with much trepidation that because you are so eager, as I was, to learn about cast bullets that I point you in the right direction. Follow this URL to the actual guru: http//www.graybeardoutdoors.com/lbt/index.htm
I say with much trepidation because I have had a bad experience with the gent and no longer directly do business with him. If you buy anything you must get the book, Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets. He literally has been there done that and is the foremost expert on cast bullets to my knowledge, he deserves credit for that. This book will teach you literally everything you need to know!
Ok, to your questions. I would say for your 60 gr bullet a 223 dia. barrel, 1-14 in twist. The diameter is not vital as long as it is smaller than the bullet. I like 223 diameter barrels because the most accurate Hornet I have ever fired is a Browning A-Bolt with that bore size with .224 diameter bullets. I know you like heavy but keep in mind the weight of your gas check plus lube weight is the weight of your bullet when the primer lights and pressures are highest, not what's "listed" on the mould! If I were you I would go 50grs. don't dare touch that Anchutz!, and enjoy what you have.
Do not use the 22 lubes or film lubes if you want any kind of speed! Also, if all of your lube is in fired bullets the lube is not working! It belongs melted, under pressure, between the bullet and bore. It is lore that the case should cover all lube grooves, but I've never noticed. I just make sure the bullet is contacting the lands. The lube you are using is not lube but high temp wax, some of it takes 500+ degrees to melt! Fire your rifle repeatedly, just like you were using jacketed bullets, and see if your bore is clean and accuracy is sustained!
Shallow lube grooves will make a heavier (shorter too) bullet but when your bullet swages to fit the bore that vital part may close up and be useless.
The loads you listed I noticed were from the net, not what you fired. W680 is discontinued and the loads were not pressure tested. You will be safer and happier using jacketed loads with LISTED pressures in the data! I use Lil' Gun because its accurate, has listed data, and is impossible even for me to make dangerous in any Hornet case.
I do not know everything, I can only learn and try to help anyone who asks. I wish I were a machinist so I could do what your going to do!

In my opinion .22 caliber bullets are the best challenge in the world of casting. One thing to remember: a small defect that would be relatively inconsequential on/in a larger bullet would have much more serious consequences (ie: effecting accuracy)in these .22's. They gotta be perfect.

I've cast bullets over the last 35 yrs. for two .22Hornets, a K-Hornet, R-2 Lovell, .222, .223 and Savage .22HiPower. Bullet weights from 37gr. to 60gr. It's been my experience that the 1-14" twist is on the raggedy-edge for accuracy in stabilizing the 60gr. bullet. 1-12" (as in the Savage HiPower) does the trick. What a great mould- use it as-cast in the Savage, size it down a couple of thou for the .223.

Thanks to both you folks.

Ok then, I won't touch the Anschutz and I'll aim for 50gr cast. When my AR2205 gets low I'll get some Lil'Gun. Since I'm not going to spend money right away I can afford to machine a few different weight moulds to experiment with. I'll work around the ogive and exposed shank fitting in the magazine but getting close to the lands and the 'housed' shank carrying the lube grooves - including the one formed by the gap in front of the gas check. I will try the paper cup seating method and compare it to neck sizing.

I have devised a case-life experiment, which involves reloading one case at the range for all shots fired. The method will be to have a row of small containers with weighed powder charges, a set of paper cups, a de-capper and priming tool and a means of seating the bullet. And of course, bullets. Cast of course.

Another question. I have an upcoming feral goat hunt. Anschutz hornet or 303 Brit?

303Guy

303 Brit all the way! The Hornet will probably kill it, but the Brit has bagged every head of N.A. big game on a regular basis. I hope you were kidding!
P.S. gnoahh has been casting longer than I've been alive, he might know a thing or two!

montanabadger
Thank you for starting an interesting and informative thread. I hope you and nighthawk have gained as much from it as I have.

HawkI
I was kind a looking for 'permission' to use the Hornet. I will just practice and experiment with it at the range and hunt with the 303. I�ll get to use both my center fire�s that way.
I have a plan for the future � it is to collect a whole bunch of old LMLE�s and build all my favourite calibers into them and fit them all with identical stocks and scopes � right down to my 22lr club rifle. That�ll be longer term.

I noted that Gnoahh has casting knowledge. I have a lot of new information to digest yet - I'll get back to him. A fellow at work is going to turn me some things for my lead bullets. (He's on the NC lathe).

303Guy

Fellow Cast Bullet Enthusiasts,

I have been shooting cast bullets in the .22 Hornet for about 20 years now.

Bullets:
The two best bullets I have found are Lyman 225438 and the NEI 45 gr. Both are gas check designs.

Sprue Plate:
The best trick I know to making match grade .22 cast bullets is to have a new sprue plate made with .062" (1/16) sprue holes. Besides allowing you to make bullets with nice bases, the alloy sets up quickly in the small sprue hole which allows you to speed up the casting cycle which keeps the mold up to the proper casting temperature.

Alloy:
I make them in w.w. + 2% tin alloy (air cooled) and they shoot just fine up to 2,700 f.p.s. because of their low sectional density.

Loads:
You can use any of your favorite loads for jacketed bullets with the cast gas checked bullets.

Accuracy:
My '43 Winchester is capable of 1 1/2" groups @ 100 yards with jacketed bullets. My cast bullets made using a sprue plate with the .062" sprue holes are just as accurate.

Have fun!!
w30wcf

Hi HawkI, this is an old post I know, but out of interest, I ended up taking the hornet on my goat hunt - I had, by then, developed a 50gr jacked load which gave me more confidence in both my ability with the rifle and with the rifle to perform. I was going to be carrying my rifle a long way! As it turned out, that load performed extremely well. My first shot was a 'finishing off' shot to the head (which blew the face away) and the next, a direct heart shot to a fired up, super-charged, running billy, that needed two more shots to keep him down. Since then, I have gone up a notch to 55gr bullets with Lil'Gun, at similar velocities to the 50gr bullets with AR2205(H4227). I have tested 56gr cast bullets at the range and they seem OK but do not like to be driven too hard, it seems. I have not made my bullet mould yet - been too busy!

Regards

Sounds like you have been having fun.
If you are having accuracy issues, what kind of lube are you using? Remember also to clean out all of your jacketed fouling. When pushed hard, lead across gilding metal is akin to a rough bore!
56 might not be stabilized very well with a 1-16. Shoot something past 100yds to see if they keyhole.

Good luck!

Thanks for that!

I have been having fun and I will test those cast bullets at longer ranges but at lower velocity. My lube is Hornady or RCBS - not sure now. I have done some tests with my 303 using cast 32 pistol bullets with no gas check. One captured bullet still had lube in the grooves and showed no sign of bullet erosion. The next was much faster and only the base portion of the bullet survived. Again, no sign of bullet erosion. This was into a firing tube at the muzzle.

The last time I shot cast, the bullets hit square on but groups were inconsistent. It was windy, but ....

I did try some 55gr Nosler BTs with the exposed lead tips cut off and to my surprise, gave the best results - better than 45gr - even though the yaw was visible on the bullet hole imprint. I have fired a few longer shots with 55gr Hornady's and they seemed to be going nose first. I shall be trying out some more loads this weekend - those will include some 60gr's with the lead tips cut off and the Nolser�s whole. This time I will be using Lil'Gun, giving much higher velocity. (That stuff puts the hornet up a notch)!