Home Forums Birds & Dogs Upland Game Practice ? I think I'd better.....

I took my brand new SIG O/U to the trap range today. We were shooting a sort of doubles. You get two shots to hit the bird instead of just one. I should of known it was going to be tougher. We had to shoot at 21 yds., not 16 yds. I got five ! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] The range master said something about nothing like a little practice, say 1000 rds. (!?!). It would sharpen me up. Boo Hoo ! I knew I wasn't the greatest, but five ! With my old O/U, I'd normally get 11-19 birds at 16 yds. I'd say I've been concentrating too much on rifles and pistols lately. I've got this great spot for Mtn. Quail, and Blue Grouse too. Looks like yours truly is going to be embarassing himself for quite awhile. In hopes of getting better. Any of you practice by shooting trap ? [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img] E

Hi E:<P>I like a little trap, but I get bored quicker with it anymore since I started shooting sporting clays and five-station at a local range here. Talk about humbling! <P>One thing about shotguns that I see few people do is pattern them, though I suspect from our conversations that you did it or have it planned.<P>Anyway, on a new shotgun, it's a must for me, and I like to tailor handloads for each individual shotgun, just like I do for rifles.<P>BTW, I got a nice little Springer that would love to get into some mountain quail, in case you need a partner on a quail shoot. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img]<P>As to our last conversation, I'm on for the 31st with my cousin who I mentioned to you, and hopefully one more if it rains before then. I still have your book, and will return it as soon as I clear the cobwebs. I've been meaning to for a while now, and just never get it done! <P>How's the eleventh month looking for you?<P>Still excited over here.<P>Rick

Hi Rick. Come on up. The early Mtn. Quail/Blue Grouse season starts the weekend after Labor Day. E

Eremicus<BR>Like RB said pattern that gun and practice on 5 stand and sporting clays.<BR>The only thing I'll add is gun fit, do what ever is necessary to the gun to make that gun fit you properly.<P>Bill

I agree that patterning is a must. I've done that with the others, and I will with this one. I might put a Decelerator on it too. I have one on my other, heavier, O/U, and really appreciate it. Thanks for your comments. E

When I first got into the "clays" game I started shooting trap. After 5 months I shot my first 100 straight. I purchased a SKB 505 Trap model O/U. As others have said, if you have yet to pattern your shotgun you don't really know where your shot is going. I would be very dissapointed with 5 or 6 out of 25. When you said doubles you said you took 2 shots at every target? Or did I misunderstand? When I shot 28 yard line doubles I had 2 birds out at once and 2 shots. If your shotgun was not designed as a trap gun you are probably shooting under the birds - since in trap it is a rising bird. At least you are "supposed" to shoot it before it starts going back down again [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img]<P>After shooting trap for 6 months I got into skeet and liked it much better. Took me 1 1/2 years for my first 100 straight. Once I got my first 100 straight I then shot 17 more that year. I shot registered skeet for 4 years and really enjoyed it. My "Grabber" doesn't owe me anything since I reloaded 35,000 rounds a year. After that I got into the "Sporting Clays" and "5 stand" game. As Rick said,,,,,,talk about a humbling experience. After 2 years in Sporting Clays I was averaging in the low to mid 90's (out of 100). We used to get a group of 5 guys together almost every weekend and shoot various courses. It was a riot. My best day was a 98 - out of 100. I still hate dem dern rabbits, lol.<P>Hope you get better.<P>Don [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Just when I thought I could only get better-you guessed it, I'm worse. Went out Wednesday. Shot an 11 @ 16 yds. trap. Not too bad in my book. But this morning, I got ONE! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] Marched to my truck, and picked up another box of shells. The rangemaster said I was stopping my swing. Said the single bead, on my new 7 lb. O/U was hard to see. Changed shooting glasses, from dark to yellow. Realized I was not only stopping, but involuntarily closing my eyes as I'd start to fire. In otherwords, I was flinching! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] Stopped myself, just enough to get three. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] Then, I was told my ammo, special "handicap", one ounce loads where too fast, 1290 fps. Probably not doing my timing any good. And not reducing the recoil, but making it worse ! So, next Weds., I'll go back. With standard, slower loads. Anybody know where I can get light trap loads on the net, or through the mail ? My local ammo outlets charge more than Cabela's does to ship it to me. Odviously, I need LOTS of practice. Too bad. The local livestock operators confirm that the Mtn. Quail populations are at an all time high. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] Good thing. I'll take lots of ammo for the opener. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] E

Eremicus,<P>Sounds like you have a host of problems. <P>Most target ammo shoots around 1200 FPS. <P>Stopping the shotgun is a huge problem for a lot of beginners. <P>If you have a shotgun that kicks a lot (such as a Ruger Red Label) you may want to look at having it ported. In addition you can always have the forcing cones elongated and/or have it backbored. All of these will reduce felt recoil. <P>You should have 2 beads on a target shotgun, not one. If you have 2 beads you stack them on top of one another, like a figure eight. This will give you proper elevation. Once you are lined up properly take your eyes off the barrel. Never "aim" a shotgun. Always look at the bird, not down the barrel. Keep both eyes open at all times. <P>Everybody is different but you could try this - it may work for you. When you are on station one "aim" the barrel at the top left corner of the trap house roof. When at station 2, "aim" the barrel at the bottom left corner of the trap house roof. When on Station 3, "aim" the barrel at the middle of the roof on the trap house. When on Station 4, "aim" the barrel at the bottom right corner of the trap house roof. When on Station 5, "aim" the barrel at the top right corner of the trap house roof. This is for set-up purposes only. Once you are "set-up" take your eyes off the barrel and look over the middle of the trap house, Yell PULL or whatever "you" care to yell, swing on the bird, keep the shotgun moving, squeeze, keep the gun moving, watch the target break. <P>A lot of trap shooters use this "set-up" because the barrel is always under the bird and it makes it quicker to get on the target. <P>If you are serious about trap, lessons may be in order before you obtain a lot of bad habits, which will be difficult to break. <P>As far as ammo goes, I buy my new ammo from the club(s) I shoot at. Sorry, can't help you there. <P>Don [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

E.,<P>Walmarts has trap load AAs or Remingtons at decent prices, at least locally.<P>First, although I shot competitive trap and it is a tougher game than skeet, you are better served for hunting training on a skeet field, a skeet field is also better for hunting practice than sporting clays or 5 stand for reasons that are obvious but not worth the time of explaining now.<P>Second, I hate to say it, but it sounds as though your new shotgun may be contributing to your problems. German/European shotguns often have tight bores, which contributes to a little more perceived recoil. Does yours have double triggers? Thinking about that or the grip change may be a problem? Perhaps the comb is a bit high or it just doesn't fit well? Trigger pull extra heavy? I can go into a disseratation on this, have taught many poor shooters to become very decent shots, but that deal about 1290 fps changing your lead is basically hooey, particulary at trap targets, however it would have more recoil. Sounds like you need the lowest recoiling gun you've got to get your confidence back up. If you have one, take a 28 to the skeet range. It is true that most target shooters use dual beads, but whether they really accomplish much is highly debatable. They allow shooters whith mounted guns to check head positioning is about all, not unimportant, but not critical to a hunting weapon since you don't have that luxury when you are shooting at most birds.<P>I'll be glad to try to give you some more hints, but email me if you wish and we'll go from there.

Sounds to me like you are getting a lot of information to develop an excuse!<P>In my opinion, you were only shooting 50% prior to getting the new gun and are shooting even worse now. You clearly have developed a few bad habits and need to work on correcting them. Then, get out and shoot! Nothing replaces practice and repetition.<P>As for what shells to shoot, try to stick with a target load around 1200 fps. Whether it be Winchester AA, Remeington STS, or another brand is not relavent until you pattern your gun.<P>As for the gun being your problem, unlikely unless the fit is way off from your previous gun. As for tighter bores, I assume you have intergchangable chokes on a Sig. So, choke accordingly!<P>Shoot, Shoot, Shoot.....<P>Stop looking for excuses!

GunnerDog:<P>Just so we'll be on the same page, tight bores do not refer to tight chokes. Tight bores mean exactly what it says, that the inside bore diameter, not the choke constriction, is smaller than what is the standard these days for a 12 gauge, which, off the top of my head, I recall as being .729 inches. It is widely believed that tight borings contribute to more recoil and since the shooter says he has developed a flinch, then less recoil would be helpful. At any rate, it is doubtful that a new Sig has tight bores, but certainly not impossible. <P>True, only shooting 50% is not going to get you bragging rights on the local range, but when you go from 50% to 4%, and the only major change is a new gun, ummmm, what do you think that might indicate? <P>Sure, it is a shooter problem, but taking care of an equipment problem is one of the first steps, then practice and more practice.<BR>A good coach would be very helpful, no doubt.

I appreciate everybody's input, and surport. It is a shooter problem-period. I've been shooting shotguns-at game-for some 46 years. I've always known that I've developed bad habits. When I shot quail as a teenager, I went from one bird in 23 rds. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] , to one bird in 3 1/2. The difference ? I hunted and shot alot. Used guns that fitted and felt right. I'm wearing shooting glasses that allow me to see better. I'm wearing a Pabst Recoil Shield when I shoot. And I'm shopping for some lighter recoiling ammo. But, most of all, I'm shooting twice a week, and listening to the other good shots that give me feedback. I'm trying to do what they suggest, which is about the same as what you've all suggested. Basically, I'm posting this in hopes of encouraging others to practice if the're in my boat. Believe me, I'm as big a surporter of practice as these boards have. In eveything. I found out how bad my shooting is because I knew I had to practice. So, I'll quit sniveling and-practice ! [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] E

It flies it dies,<P>Just so you know where I am coming from, I know tight bores are not chokes. However, the Sig Aurora is manufactured by B. Rizzini and has its forcing cones elongated to 5 inches. This alone will eliminate more recoil than backboring alone. Also, as to gun fit, the Aurora is very similar to most all other field shotguns. To add to that, 1290 fps for 1 oz. loads is not unusual. 1290 for 1 1/8 oz. loads kick. The recoil for 1290 1 oz loads is less than the recoil of 1 1/8 oz loads at 1200 fps.<P>As for average shooters, I am not a good shot, and quite frankly, unlike Don, I have never broke 100 straight in anything. Anybody who consistently breaks above 15 on the trap range, is a good shot! As for the numbers presented, he stated he hit 5 of 25 while shooting DOUBLES and standing at the 21 YARD LINE instead of the 16. Compared to his usual 15 of 25 at the 16 yard line. That's not a bad change for not shooting in a while and using a different gun. Surely not anything I would be willing to change everything for.<P>Eremicus stated he was flinching and stopping his swing. Sounds like he has already found the problem. The only way to overcome these problems is to shoot. I'd much rather do that than trade off a fine shotgun like the Sig.<P>Actually, this sounds like some of the same slumps I've been through in my shooting career.<P>In the end, shooting rock is a game. Sometimes we take it too seriously!

GunnerDog:<P>First of all, he was not shooting doubles, he was shooting two shots at handicap trap singles from the 21 yard line.<P>Second, my standards of shotgun shooting are somewhat higher than yours. For an adult shooter without special problems , shooters with experience at trap or skeet(using a 12) my rating of adequate, or barely acceptable--meaning needs help--is anything from about 16 to 20, decent is 20 to 23, and good shots will rarely shoot less than a 24 or 25. Less than 16 means that you need to get help immediately or take up golf.<P>Third, I don't care if the gun is a Fabbri, a Purdy, or what, if it doesn't work for you, then you should get rid of it and find one that does or fix what is causing the problem. And, without seeing him shoot, I am not sure it is the gun, but E. said he was shooting in the upper teens before switching to this gun and now he is obviously not. May not be the gun, but sure sounds like it might be part of the problem.<P>Finally, the "book" recoil on 1200fps 1 1/8 oz loads and 1290fps 1 oz loads shows there to be about 5% more for the 1 1/8 ounce load, however, I and many other shooters have noticed that some of these faster loads seem to have more perceived recoil than the numbers would indicate. I don't think that is the problem anyway, but if I was E. I would be shooting an 1100 fps 1 oz load and that will still break all the clays he wants at normal ranges, with a good bit less recoil.<P>As far as shooting clay pigeons being a game, of course, it is. But so is everything else.

Just a note:<P>Lets take a person that has never shot skeet or trap. Take them to the trap field and shoot 100 rounds, then take them to the skeet field and shoot 100 rounds. I am just talking about the "average Joe". I would bet that "Joe" would do better at trap then skeet - for those first 100 rounds. <P>If we took "Joe" and spent 6 months with him on both skeet and trap he would consistently shoot higher scores in skeet then trap. <P>Trap is easier when ya first start - skeet is easier once you spend enough time at each game. <P>As far as the 2 beads not meaning anything, I don't agree. Yes it does "teach" where to place your head. Once you "learn" where to place your head - after awhile it becomes instinctive - in which case it will be helpfull in hunting situations. Once it is instictive you really don't need any beads at all. I can't remember the last time I looked down my shotgun barrel.<P>I shoot International Skeet (which is tougher then trap) [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] <P>Don [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>P.S. I shoot trap and sporting clays as well.

Don:<P>You are absolutely correct about a beginner at trap and skeet. They will certainly find skeet harder until they figure it out, and then it is boringly repetitive. I always shoot skeet with a low gun, makes it at least interesting. My only real problem with skeet is real skeet shooters, they are soooooo sloooow. <P>We shoot several interesting non-skeet on a skeet field games when there are just a couple of real shooters, as opposed to skeet shooters, LOL, around. One is pieces, where you shoot twice at every target, and have to break the target and the piece you pick out. We score one point for the first shot and 2 for the peice. A variation of that is to start on the 16 yard line--trap field overlaid on skeet field--and to shoot five positions, like in trap, shooting pieces as above, but every time you hit a target or a piece, you back up a yard, one target and its piece, 2 yards back. Makes it interesting.<P>Finally, international trap is harder than international skeet. LOL And ZZs are harder than them. A good friend of mine has been world champion twice at ZZs. Tough game, too expensive for a poor old county boy to shoot.

If It Flies:<P>I have been out of competition shooting too long. What is/are ZZ's?

I took a little ride-50 miles- and came home from the nearest Wal-Mart with 500 rds. of light trap loads. Got'em for $4 a box. Shot'em last night. Noticabily better. Shot better too. Had two of the guys coaching me at one point. Had to do the old "put a spot on the shooting glasses" trick. For some reason, my right eye wasn't dominate enough. Cleared up the view down the top of the rib. Now I don't "lean" over it so much. Got caught lifting my head off the stock, a time or two. When I develop bad shooting habits, I don't do it half way! Busted just under half my birds, on the 2nd round. Gettin there. Thanks again guys. E

Wall:<P>ZZs are a game developed in Europe(Italy, I think) about 40 years ago, more or less, to replace live pigeon shooting, which was and is banned in Italy. And it has spread from there.<P>They are shot more or less like a live pigeon ring, with 5 boxes, spread out in a semi circle in front of shooter at about 29 meters, but I think the distance may be variable a bit, sort of like handicap trap. A ZZ is a plastic ring, with a separate plastic inside piece that looks exactly like the little toy helicopter thingies we played with when we were kids and works the same way, except it is considerably larger, from memory about 7 inches in diameter or so and about an inch thick, but that may be off a bit. It is placed on a machine that spins it a very high RPMs, and when the shooter calls "bird" one of the 5 is released at random and they take off and are extremely mobile and subject to wind movements, and are very tough to hit, but to count you must hit them hard enough for the inside ring to separate from the outside and the 2 pieces must fall inside the perimeter fence. Shooter is allowed 2 shots at a bird. <P>The world championships are shot every year in Paris, France.<P>There are not many rings in the US, my Doctor buddy, the 2 time World Champion, installed one at the Shreveport Gun Club in Shreveport, La, there is one in Dallas, and I don't think there are more than a dozen, maybe less, in the rest of the country. A set up is fairly expensive and the usual charge to shoot a bird is about $1 to $2 dollars per bird for practice.<P>I think the gist of this is correct, but I may be off a little in some of the details, since I have only shot it a very little, like I said, too much money for a poor country boy. <P>E:<P>Good news about your shooting, lifting your head, to "peek" is a real killer, both on the range and in the field. You will always shoot over the bird. Just like in bow hunting, you need to establish an anchor point, so to speak. Doesn't have to be all that hard, or grinding your cheek down, just the same every time. Another thing to keep in mind, when you are thinking about the performance of any physical movement, it slows down the actual movement. Obviously, you have to think about what you are doing while learning, or re-learning, but once the bird is flying, let the reflexes you have set up take over.

If It Flies,<P>We still have a live pigeon shoot here every summer. The PETA's sure love them, lmao. I have attended them but never actually shot in them. One hunting and skeet shooting buddy won it a couple of years ago. I know for a fact I can't outshoot him so it made no sense for me to enter. <P>By the way, lets agree that Sporting Clays is more difficult then both skeet and trap [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img]<P>I agree, most skeet shooters are boringly slow. I really have to laugh at some of the skeet shooters that wave that shotgun all over the place for their set-up, then they miss the target, lol. I think to myself,,,,maybe all that waving tired you out, lol. <P>I like 5 stand also,,,,makes a nice diversion sometimes. <P>Don [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]