Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Dave Scovill? 450 Alaskan in model 71?

This is my first post on this board, and to say the least, I am very impressed with the quality of posters on here.

My first question is does Dave Scovill ever post on here? And if not, I am sure some of you know him, personally.

I have recently purchased an old original Winchester Model 71 which was converted many years ago to 450 Alaskan, and I am trying to learn the ins and outs of making loads for this gun. I recently read his article in Rifle on the 71 September 2007, where he stated that you could neck down 50 Alaskan to make the 450 case with a simple pass through a full length resizing die. And I would like to hear a little more about that process.

I tried it, and I was able to resize to 450, but it turns out a case that is a little too short to crimp with my present RCBS Bullet seating die. I could probably do it, if I cut off several thousands from the bottom of the die.

That is just one question I had. I have also been resizing some 450 brass I purchased from one of internet conponent sellers, This is supposed to be new brass and it says 348 win on it. I don't think they were fireformed, they must have another way of doing it. I am having some problems crimping this brass, and getting a decent looking crimp, without creating just enough of a bulge in the lower neck to make chambering difficult. So I am wondering if maybe my problem is two thick a brass at the case mouth and if I should get a neck reamer.

Anyway, I have loaded a few rounds and shot them, but my dies which came with the rifle are old, and now I have discoverd that the FL resizing die had a crack in it. So now it has gone back to RCBS for replacement. I don't know for sure, but I wonder if I cracked it, when I resized the 50 Alaskan case. I used One Shot Lube, but the case was pretty difficult to neck down, and maybe I should be using some other lube. However, maybe the die was cracked before, and I just didn't notice it.

Sorry for the long post. But I would greatly appreciate any pointers regarding making ammo for this rifle, from anyone that has some experience in this sort of thing. I have handloaded for years but this is new ground for me, so I am trying to learn as much as I can. Unfortunately about the only case forming I have done, is making 358 cases out of .308 win cases and easy stuff like that.

I load for a Mod 71 450-348AI, I neck .348 cases up to .40 & then to .45. I find I loose fewer cases if I anneal the case neck and shoulder first. I haven't had the crimp problem with my RCBS dies, but you might look into a Lee factory crimp die, not sure how they will work, I just picked one up for the 45-70, If I get a chance in the next few days I'll try it on the 450-348, I'll report back later. --- Mel

Welcome to the fire. BMT

Mohecken,

DS doesn't hang here, I recommend you send your questions direct to the magazine.

My experience with the M71 was all with .348 Win. They are solid rifles, for a lever gun.

jim

"you might look into a Lee factory crimp die, not sure how they will work, I just picked one up for the 45-70, If I get a chance in the next few days I'll try it on the 450-348, I'll report back later."

Can't see a way for the crimp die to work, case is too fat. ---Mel
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I believe Lee will make a crimp die for you if you call them. You may have to send them a cartridge to size off of though.

Thanks for the information, fellows.

I was wondering if anyone would offer a factory crimp die. It looks like I have some learning and experimenting to do, to get it figured out. I did send an email to the magazene, but I don't know if I sent it to the right place or not, for sure. And I am sure they get lots of questions, so who knows if I will get anything back. Maybe a letter would be more productive.

I have always been interested in this combination of caliber and rifle ever since I first read about it. I have been searching the web for reloading information on this caliber, and found some, but it's not that much beyond the story about it's inventor, Harold Johnson and how the round came to be.

Franky, I am surprised that Midway actually sells brass for it. They were a little higher though, and I found it cheaper at Buffalo Arms. What is odd, is this was Winchester 348 Brass made into 450, but right now, neather place offers 348 win brass. So the old way of blowing out 348 brass may get to a problem, due to the limited runs of 348 brass by Winchester. I wish Starline would offer 450 brass, however it does offer 50 Alaskan brass, so that may be about the only option to keep some of these guns shooting in the future.

Yes, I was wondering about annealing the cases first, I may try that later when I get my resizing die back from RCBS. And I would be interested in anything you find out regarding the factory crimp die.

Actually, I was starting to wonder if I had an Ackley Improved version instead of the Alaskan. My gun has 45-348A. stamped on the barrel. But it was sold to me as a 450 Alaskan and the cases seem to measure out right for the Alaskan. I don't have any specs for the Ackley, but I do for the Alaskan. My reloading dies are stamped 45-348 but have Alaskan marked on the box with a magic marker. The identification is very simular, as far as the numbers go. Both being called 45 or 450-348. With most calling the Ackley version 450-348 and the Alaskan called 45-348. I could see how it could be very easy for an old gun to be miss-repersented as one or the other. Which could cause some problems if one had dies for one and the gun was chambered for the other. I don't think that is my case, but it had me guessing for a little while.

You can't Lee crimp the 450AK or AI or any 45 based on the 348 case with the 45-70 Lee die. The base of the collet is too small to take the larger 348 base. You could get away with it if you took a boring bar to the collet and opened up the base but unless you have access to a lathe, it would be easier to just have Lee make one for you.

My 450-238AI was done by Bill Fuller in Copper Landing, AK. He worked with Harold Johnson and took over the shop from him. Bill passed away not too long after doing my gun and I suspect but can't prove it was probably the last one he did. I actually told him I wanted a 450 Alaskan but the Ackley is what I got. I think he had the reamer and a set of RCBS dies on hand. He gave me some loads at the time I also found loads in PO Ackleys book. they seem to be a little on the warm side but give you something to work from. You should be able to measure a fire case & determine which one you have. I saw some 450 Alaskan brass advertised some place (Midway or Graf most likely) It was priced pretty high & as I have a couple hundred new .348 brass on hand to keep the gun running, I didn't order any. I don't plan on following up on the Lee crimp die as my dies crimp just fine.

--- Mel

Was your rifle a re-barrel or a re-bore job? I read that Johnson usually did a re-barrel.

I was told mine was done by Atkinson and Marquart in Arizona in the late fiftys or early 60's. It's a Re-bore job. It looks more like an 1886 then a model 71. It has been coverted to a straight grip and has a full length Magazzene.

Mine was re-barreled, I wish it had been rebored, it's also restocked in pretty nice Am. walnut& it has the bolt peep sight, I've posted picture before , may dig them out and repost if you'd like to see them. ---Mel

I would sure like to see that rifle, Mel.

Ted

Ted,
That's simple, stop by the house next time you're in town. Seriously I'll post a couple pictures this weekend. --- Mel

I will do that, for sure!

What does one of these rifles sell for these days?

Ted

Ted, Here are some pictures of my M0d 71, I Hope, ---Mel













[img]http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/olblue2/Mod-%2071%20Winchester/Picture002.jpg[/img]

As you can see I have a break installed, it's nice for shooting off the bench and working up loads, however I have a muzzle cap for hunting, I do need to get the forend cap made into a barrel band before shooting full power loads without the break. I have a local smith lined up to do it just haven't taken the time to take it in, he's also a guide so I have to catch him when he's not hunting. As to valve I'm guessing somewhere between $1500.00 and $2500.00. Last time I posted pictures someone wanted to buy it, (I forget who)however when I told him $2000.00 plus shipping I didn't hear anymore from him. So I guess it's worth whatever you can get It would probably be worth more in original condition. OH and by the way Sitka Deer took these pictures.

Mel

Mel,

That is a very nice rifle you have, I would be careful about pricing it for $2000 unless you really want to sell it. Of course wildcats have to have a special home where they are appreciated. But I imagine plenty of people would be willing to give that rifle a home.

Beautiful . . .

BMT

Not wanting to sell at this time, got the new knee in without selling this one, but you know the old saying if the price is right. --- Mel