Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs A GOOD DOG FOR THE DESERT

HEY ya'll,<BR> I was wondering what would be a good dog for me to have here in the good ol state for AZ? I have thought about a black lab, even a golden retriever, but I was unsure which would be best. I have also looked at some other dogs as well. <BR> I want something that is easy to train or trained and that is cute so my sis don't complain, something that won't get catus or other sticky's in it too bad, and something affordable for a college student.<BR> What would you suggest?<BR>86

Youngbuckaz86,labs do well in the desert as well as most breeds would.It's a matter of conditioning the dog to the climate.I have no experience hunting birds in AZ,years ago I hunted javalina with my cousin..As a college student you probably don't have alot of time on your hands and IMHO training a gundog takes time.<P>I trained all my dogs,2 GWP's and an English Setter.They probably wouldn't win a field trial but they all point and retriev to hand,which is all I want.My one wirehair was high point dog in Canada in 1998 in a field dog test.I lost him to cancer last Sept.<P>Trained dogs are expensive,so are untrained ones LOL.I had the satisfaction of seeing allthat training come together in the field and it made me feel good that I did it.<P>As for cactus and other sticky stuff you'll want a short haired breed although cactus sticks to everything.We have cactus here too in Alberta,prickly pear.It's worse in the Kamloops area of British Columbia.We hunt chuckar partridge there and the dogs wear booties otherwise they can't move for the cactus.Also have rattle snakes.<P>As for looks beauty is in the eye of the beholder.Who can't resist the look of a gangly pup,all legs and ears<P>Back to labs, you can't go wrong.Some say they can train themselves all you do is add water LOL.The most important thing is to get a dog from a reputable breeder.<P>I have friends who hunt quail in AZ every year.I have hunted pheasant in COLO and MONT.My Aunt ranches over by FT.Morgan COLO. and my brother just bought 80 acres in the Ramah area of COLO.He says good pheasant population on his place.<P>Good luck in what you do.<P>mike

MF,<BR>thanks for the advice, I just want a dog that can retrieve my down birds, I have no problem finding then, it just that I unrecover a few birds each year and that just don't feel right to me.<BR>86

Hi 86. Got your email.<P>OK, I'm going to try to answer this in an objective manner (yeah right!). Right up front you need to know that I regularly and often hunt the desert too, all throughout Southern California, and in Baja. So I am not without some experience, though I hasten to add that I don't consider myself anything other than an enthusiastic amateur.<P>Also, you need to know that I ran GSP's for about 18 years and switched over to English-bred Springers with my last dog. Jack's not a year old yet, and is just getting his formal training at the pro's, so the jury is still out. But so far I like what I see.<P>OK .. on to your question.<P>For desert hunting, the most popular dogs as far as numbers are GSP's and Britts. There has to be a reason for that. So there's a major starting point. <P>Like I said, I'm not an expert, but every Lab I have hunted in the desert overheated fast. Labs are great dogs, and can be super upland dogs, but for desert hunting, they have an awful lot of natural insulation, are relatively large-bodied (not good when trying to thermoregulate) and chocolates and blacks have the wrong color shade for staying cool. In the end, even with the newer strains of upland/pointing Labs, their forte is STILL waterwork and retrieving, and their prowess on true upland work, while good/great, is still generally not up to par with the top-end upland dogs. That being said, there are lots of Labs doing good work in the desert. They just wouldn't be my first choice.<P>English pointers and setters are pretty and stylish. Nothing beats a good one of these hitting the brakes from a full run to lock up on point. It's magical. But most Field Trial strains simply run too big for hunting desert quail. Plus, desert birds aren't too fond of holding tight, although singles will hold in good cover. Combine a big-running dog with a running covey, and you have a good recipe for wild flushes and unsteady pointers. That's not to say the right dog with a good trainer and handler can't do the work, it just that, again, it wouldn't be my first choice.<P>GSP's are the natural desert dog. They are short haired and relatively lithe, so thermoregulation is promoted. They don't tend to run nearly as big as EP's and ES's, though of course individual dogs within breeds can and do span the entire spectrum. They work methodically, are pretty tireless if watered and cared for correctly, and really do good job of finding game and retrieving it. The GWP's are right there as well, and are even rumored to be better as pure hunters (debatable), but their coat is a disadvantage in the desert. GSP's can be a little hard-headed, and their German breeding is apparent (take it for what it's worth), but they are the goods. To my mind, your best bet if you don't want to go out on a limb is a GSP (or a weimeraner or vizsla).<P>Britts are real close to GSP's to my mind. They tend to be smaller, but are just as versatile, and have a much different (some would say better) disposition. Britts are softer dogs, and this can be good. To be honest, other than the longer coat (which can be trimmed) a good Britt has nothing to envy of any dog in the desert. They are birdy, smart, and stylish. They are a very close second choice, if conventional wisdom has anything to say about it, and leap ahead to the top, in my mind, if you like a soft dog with a spaniel temperament (I definitely do!).<P>And now here comes the part where my own personal bias comes out (Huh? ).<P>In my opinion and experience, the average hunter should not buy a pointing dog to hunt in the desert. The pointing instinct does not mesh well with the running instinct and open terrain of desert game, especially desert quail and Baja pheasants. Mind you, I said the AVERAGE hunter ... meaning the guy who semi-trains his dog himself, leaves him in the backyard in the off-season, and puts him down on opening day after Gambel's or chukars expecting him to "point 'em up." Add an e-collar to this equation, and it gets downright ugly.<P>Let me restate this whole premise from a different angle in order to be clear. IF you are going to buy a pointing dog for hunting the desert, you need to make the commitment to having that dog well-trained, to keeping him sharp year-round, and to doing whatever it takes to get that dog experience on wild running birds, and not pigeons or pen-raised pheasants. A desert pointer is a different breed. Many guys not only allow, but encourage their dogs to creep on point. Steady to wing and shot is often not an ironclad requirement, like it would be on a Southern plantation. In fact, I have heard and read in various places from reputable sources that a Southern pointer and a desert pointer just ain't the same kinda dog! I'll bet there's a difference of opinion on that!<P>And this premise is what led me to a Springer. I freely admit that I simply was not a good enough trainer/handler to get my dogs to work the way I thought they should on runners. Or maybe I was expecting something that was unreasonable. Bottom line, the whole experience of regularly coming up to a dog on point, flushing the bird while my dog remained steady to wing and shot, and then sending him on a retrieve ... well, that didn't happen too often to me. I'm not saying others don't get it, I'm just saying I didn't. In addition, even though I paid a pro to steady my dogs, it didn't last. No surprise. He trained them on pigeons and pen-raised chukars that held like a glacier while he styled up the dog. Can you imagine a Gambel's with open desert all around doing that? Not often anyway.<P>Now I own a little English-bred Springer out of really fine English field trial bloodlines. He works fast and energetic, stays within shotgun range, and is a natural. By nine months, before he even went to a pro, he had flushed and retrieved over 100 pigeons, plus fully wild valley quail, Gambel's quail and full-blooded Mexical ringnecks, and two Bandtail pigeons to boot. He also chased semi-domesticated guinea hens 'til he wore himself out and retrieved 8 cinammon teal from the lagoon behind the rancho. The pro says he's an A-1 dog.<P>I might be biased, but I don't regret the Springer decision one bit at this point.<P>OK, I expect some flame here, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.<P>Hope this helps, 86. And I hope it elicits some other opinions.<P>Rick<P>

hey guys,<BR>I don't have a problem finding the birds, a pointer would be nice though, but what I really need is a dog to bring back or find my fallen birds. All this info is great, because it give me a lot to think about. can you guys get me thinking about retrievers now. <BR>by the way rick, how much would a dog of your breed run about? I am curious also what would be the best dog for my money.<BR>thanks guys,<BR>86

86,In a nut shell these dogs all retrieve,pointing breeds,labs,springers.The instinct is in them but you have to train them.<P>As for you finding birds that's all well and good but IMO you may as well have the dog do that for you as well as find and retrieve them.You will enjoy better shooting.I hunted for alot of years without a dog and enjoyed what I thought was some good action.Then my Dad gave me an English Springer Spaniel.She was already trained and my pheasant hunting changed forever. I had that dog for 14 yrs and still grieve her loss some 11 years later.<P>I couldn't agree more about what Rick has posted for the most part but like all people we have our own favorites. You can't go wrong with a GSP.IMO I would stay away from a Brit as a first dog,nothing against them there are 3 of them in my Dad and Brothers kennels.I find them very headstrong and require a firm hand.<P>As for cost for a springer here in Alberta my friend who field trials them has paid close to a $1000 American for a pup out of champion blood lines, field and show.We can also get good field dogs from 5 to $700.You can get cheaper but IMO you get what you pay for and there are alot of indiscriminant backyard breeders.I suggest you do alot of research and define what type of breed best suits your hunting needs.A good magazine to get is Gun Dog.They cover all breeds and is not full of hunting stories.They have a breeders classified section that covers almost every state in the union.<P>mike

I will agree with Rick. Although if you are set on a lab, if it we me, I would select one in yellow due to the heat factor.<P>I have owned and trained 2 Springers and must say they are a joy to work and hunt with. But I switched to poiunting breeds as I really enjoy shooting over a pointing dog. Just my personal preference.<P>I live in Nebraska, and hunt in both Nebraska & Iowa. This is bird dog heaven. Bird dogs are almost everywhere! However as our has already been mentioned, choose a pup form a reputable breeder. <P>Here is my version of what typically happens in this part of the country: Billy-Bob has a male Lab that he uses for duck hunting. Jim-Bob has a female Lab. Boy oh boy is she pretty! Jim-Bob has not trained or hunted her, but she sure is pretty.<P>Billy-Bob meets Jim-Bob and discovers they both love Labs. They decide to breed their dogs together to make beutiful hunting pups.<P>Pups are born, potential buyer ask about the parents, only to find out that the femal not only does not hunt, but there is no knowledge if her parents hunted or not. <P>Hip dispaysia? Elbow and eye certification? Who is OFA????? Ask's Jim-Bob.<P>Many times when buying a pup from a private party, the pup turns out as the owner hoped.<P>Sometimes not.....<P>Just be careful and very selective in your process.<P>Mark.

What Mark said too.<P>Rick

Thanks for the discussion, guys. I've got a yen for a good bird dog, particularly a desert bird dog. Our Mtn. quail seem to run almost as bad as the Gambel's variety. And our Blue Grouse, when you can find them, often let you walk right by them. Again, thanks for the comments. E.

hey guys,<BR>what about a german shorthair pointer, he is about 9 months old, would that be a good one. I found it at the pound for 70 dollars.<BR>86

86: IMHO leave it at the pound there is probably a good reason it's there.

Ditto what Magnum said.<P>For all you know, that dog is from show stock. BIG non-no. Check your pedigrees, 86.<P>Rick

hey guys,<BR>thanks for the advice. it was just a though about the pound thing, but how good are ghsp? thanks again.<BR>86

Youngbuckaz86, Rickbin just got through with that long post about G.S.P.'s {german short haired pointers}As for the pound puppy stay far away. Another option is an Engilsh Pointer or Setter resuce. These dogs have at least some background on them and most were misunderstood and got into the wrong hands like non-hunting families or inexperienced novices that know nothing about k-nine philosify dogdum in general. Go to google.com and type in the breeds mentioned above. They even classify if the dog is from field or show stock.

[img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] Young buck az 86 I just got through with some pro's from another board and asked their oppinion of a good dog for the S.W. dersert. Please go to <A HREF="http://www.uplandbirddog.com" TARGET=_blank>www.uplandbirddog.com</A> and see the post in the " Birddog training forum" and click on the topic "Birddog for the S.W. desert" It is too much to write it here and I don't want to made any moderators mad. These links are people from your area that run dogs in the deserts of Az. & N.M. already, Good luck! P.S. finish school first its a big commitment, like have a kid!!!!!

YoungBuck,<P>First, DO NOT attempt to save money by buying a dog from an unknown breeder because it is cheaper. I made that mistake with my GSP, "saving" about three hundred dollars by buying him from a downstate Illinois "backyard" breeder. I have since that time spent many times the money I "saved" on vet bills and medication for his condition of hip dysplasia. And I will eventually be spending upwards of $3,500 PER HIP to have them replaced. By the way, taking good care of your dog isn't cheap, by the time you factor in shots, vet visits, chew toys, food, chewed-up valuables, etc.<P>Make no mistake: I love my pup and, even faced with the added cost, I'm glad he's the one I got (which should tell you something about GSP's and about the pleasure of owning a good dog). He's got a great nose, terrific hunting instincts, a great disposition, and he's a tremendous pal.<P>Second, I think the reason he's as good as he is is that he's with me almost 24-7. I take him with me to work, he sleeps in my room, we watch TV on the couch together! I also get him outside everyday to run on the Lake Michigan beach and keep the weight off of him. It's quite a bit of work, and takes real time.<P>Third, I hunt him in the desert in SW Idaho, and on the plains in South Dakota. My dog is dark without much white on him. He heats up pretty fast for the first few days of each trip, afterwhich his heat tolerance buids up. IMHO, the best color for your dog if he hunts where it's hot is to have as much white on him as you can get. All else equal, pick the whitest pup in the litter. However, remember that no matter what color he is, overheating is easy to do and it's dangerous: I think that once a pup or dog has been overheated, he'll be less heat tolerant for the rest of his life. Don't let your pup hunt more than a couple of hours until he's fully acclimated to running in the heat, and call him in for water constantly. Introduce pups to heat in stages and don't ever let them overheat themselves, which they will surely do if given the chance (they will run far past the point of where it's become bad for themselves).<P>All that said, if you've got the time to put into your dog (pick up a copy of the book GUN DOG by Richard Wolters BEFORE you buy your dog and read it to see if you've got that kind of time) and you've got $500 to $700 for a dog, then by all means get one. If you don't have that kind of money, just be patient and save a little until you do. They are great to have, and the money you spend is peanuts when spread over nine years or more.

If you want the Awwwww....cute factor, it is a Springer. Rock solid retrievers who can be clipped down for some heat-temperature regulation. The fur also vacumes up pretty well. The hair between the toes really should be managed, especially in a sandy, desert environment. And I don't know how they do it, But that 45 pounds that fits in your lap also holds one heck of a lot of heart. When conditioned, they can go all day. Granted, not like a gsp, but admirable. I also like that these compact dogs can be moved around quite easily at 2 a.m. when the baby cries. They can't USUALLY swipe the steaks off of the counter, etc. Very livable dogs that hunt very well.......

Youngbuck where are you? There ais all kinds of advice being thrown out to you. You could at least give us a reply back! Your last post shows you haven't been on since mid-May its now nearing the end of June!<BR>Justin H, Have you ever been to Az.? I have, and the heat is WAY different down towards the southern hemispher! I'm from the N.W. also and have spent more time in our Deserts of Wa. and yes I've gotten very sunburned if I stay out too long, but in Arizona the heat will eat you alive! It will drain all the energy out of you in no time! We got burned, and got "sunstroke" pretty good when I was down in 1982. Us Northerners are not aclimitized to that kind of dry, baking, sun exposer. The sun is much closer to the earth down their. It's like being in a giant dry (no humidity) oven! <BR> About the the dog color's you recommended, if a white dog has pink skin he WILL sunburn just like humans do! This is not an easy pick on a dog for down there. If Yuongbuck would reply back i've got some really good posts from another board that has folks from his region replying back to my post for dogs that are being bred in N.M. & Az.! This advice is from Pro's that frequent this other site... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Lady Grouse Hunter: I see in another of your post you have a setter.Is it an english or gordon? I have an ES that I got from Carl Meadows from Maple Ridge B.C.<P>I've had him on pheasant 5 types of grouse,blues,ruffed,franklin,sharptail and greater prairie chickens also huns and chuckars.We have no quail here other than farm raised bobwhites. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <P>This dog is a pointing fool.I keep live pidgeons and chuckars for training and often find him locked up on point in the yard,I timed him for 15 min.before he broke point one time.He is rock solid in the field and only breaks point to relocate on running birds,which I don't mind as I don't field trial him.I tried the field trialing game but found it too political,I do like NSTRA though because it is more like real hunting.<P>mike

Hi Lady Hunter,<P>Nope, I've never been to Arizona, but I'm thinking of moving there. I'm actually from Idaho, which is why I vacation and hunt there as much as I can. Of course I've heard much talk of the heat in AZ, and I'm sure it is hotter than the high desert of the Northwest. Frankly, I can't honestly see taking a dog out in heat that would eat you alive. Probably can't imagine taking myself out there either! Swimming in the river, maybe.<P>It's an intersting point you made re: the pinkness of a dog's skin. D'you know, I never thought about sunburn on my dogs? Shows how ignorant a guy can be, huh? Does a darkhaired dog do better in the sun, then? I can't imagine that.<P>I did check that other site you mentioned and it's a good one. Thanks for the info. Justin

JustinH, I'm sorry but I got some other post mixed up with where you live, Ill. right? e. Yah, about the skin color, when I was young my Mom raised miniture Pooples and the one's that had a pink pigment to thier skin got sunburned even here in Western Wa.! Some of the darker haired dogs had more of a brown hue the thier skin, and it seemed like the darker the hair the darker the skin color was. I also seen some dogs with a mixed color to them, like a pinto effect<BR>Az. is not a place for the weak at heart. I wouldn't even consider hunting there until at least mid November up until Febuary. For 20 years my Aunt & Uncle went down in the winter to Yuma {retirement capitol of the S.W.} and said the weather was every nice and comfortable. Az. has a winter Quail & Dove season and I'd love to someday go camp out for a week and hunt my heart out!<BR>Magnum freak, Thanks for asking. I own a Red Setter! This will be our first year out. I'm very excited to have a dog now. He's a two year old male and birdy as all getout.... About NSTRA I joined a club in my home town and went to 5 different events in 2000 & spring 2001 just to watch and meet others. Not knowing very much about dog training & dog work, I decided to bring my video camera & film some braces. I then took them home and reviewed what I had filmed. I was amazed and in total uutter shock at what I had filmed! <BR> These dogs were not holding there points very long or at all, were chasing and some catching the birds, and being shot at, right over their heads! From slowing down the tape some were even peppered on the back.... I will never have my dog entered in one of these competitons! Some of these were "Fun" trials but I still say a dog is never going to learn to be steady at anything, as long as it runs in one of these competitons. I knowthe rules say that a dog only has to be steady on point after "find" is called and can break on the flush. I can't believe how close most shots are being made to the dog.... To me this is not the thing I want to get involved with,it's crazy and some of the people their were down right stuck-up! <BR> Mine is gonna be trained to be steady to point, wing, and shot. He's half way there allready! I'm a hunter, not a compediter, too much politics. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]<BR>The only competition I want to see is, my dog & Wild birds!