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Jacob Marley had his Chain of Life which he carried after Death because of his Hubris..
Salvation is to be Determined by Your Links to God ..
The Derby Donkey named Mitch and Ms. Tinker Bells Chains are Heavy with Hubris ..
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Campfire Ranger
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Rock_Chuck has pointed out, regarding faith vs works, that It's often overlooked that James was written to saved Jews. It wasn't written to tell them how to get saved. They'd already been saved; James was simply pointing out that good works ought to be manifested in one’s life after salvation. But, even if one does NO works, that person is still saved.
James’ position doesn’t refute the “faith alone” part of the equation at all. The “faith alone” part of the equation still stands, but only the kind of faith that should eventually and inevitably produces good works. Good works are not the basis, or foundation of salvation. Good works are the result of, the fruit of salvation. It isn’t good works that save or justify, they don’t qualify us to enter God’s presence. If people truly trust in Jesus, and put their faith in Him, then that trust and confidence in Him ought to show up in how they live their lives.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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efw alluded to something earlier in this thread that kinda resonates more than just a little bit. And it makes me realize that the only way we can get hung up on believing that someone else isn’t deserving of salvation is if at some point we believe that we’re more deserving of salvation than they are.
And that line of thinking is clearly antithetical to the tenets of Christianity. None of us deserve salvation because none of us can even live up to our own standards, let alone God’s standards. All we can do is accept salvation as the gift from God that it is.
So if salvation came to Dahmer, ‘only’ God knows his heart and whether or not he was truly genuine. What I do know is that if God’s grace can save a train wreck like me…and if God’s grace can save Apostle Paul, who was responsible for the persecution and torture and murder of unknown numbers of Christians…then God’s grace can save someone like Dahmer.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Regular
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Salvation is God's prerogative, something of the spirit and not of this world. Jesus said for us not judge, referring to another's salvation. We are not to curse, that means seriously call for the damnation of another, has nothing to do with potty words.
We definitely can worldly judge someone for worldly actions, including killing them.
God gave us freewill, as individuals and mankind in total... he will not save us from each other here. There is no worldly/physical salvation. We can't 'do' anything on this world, works, to gain spiritual salvation, and no matter how much we want it for those we feel are evil, nothing worldly we can do that absolutely denies it.
Yes, Hitler could be with God, spiritually.
Kent Our genetic makeup and the life circumstances we are born into are not a matter of free will. A beggar living in Calcutta, crippled by his handlers to increase sympathy value and revinue, no education, no prospects and no hope of a better life was not a matter of free will or choice. Hitler, if born in Australia in this day and age would have no hope of realizing his dreams of dictatorship and conquest, and would likely eke out a living as second rate artist.... But…..DBT, living today……has access to the gospel of Christ and makes his decision to reject it. Seems like you would then be “without excuse.” Rather than a decision, it is a lack of conviction based on an understanding of history, the nature of faith, how the gospels were put togethet, their flaws and contradictions, etcetera. Had I been born before the age of science and reason, a more superstitious age, I'd likely to be praying in the chapel with the rest of the village population.....and of course, I would not be me. So, cutting through the bafflegab, is it correct that 1. yes….you have been made aware of those who testify for Jesus. 2. You reject Jesus and liken Him to be sorta like a “superstition.” Is that right? If so, you are clearly standing apart from the Son of God…. You are also denying the Creators claims…and you do not have a relationship with Jesus. So, you are clearly without excuse and a simple denial that “God, you failed to convince me” will not provide you with a pass. Just so you know….. Seek…..Find. Don’t Seek, Don’t Find….. Bafflegab? It's just basic biology and psychology based on genetics, environment and culture. It's not even controversial. Seems like this is an admission that conclusion made is correct. But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK….
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Outfitter
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James 2.
God has chosen the poor of this world who are rich in faith—Salvation is gained by keeping the whole law—Faith without works is dead. James seems to be saying if you accept God's grace and Jesus' teachings you are going to show it by your works and obedience. Otherwise you are lying. James was Jesus' brother and was at ground zero of Christianity. I cannot believe the Jewish, the Asia Minor, and the Romans had different standards. Christianity is a sect of Judaism, but is open to all people of all races or I am badly fooled.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
Hebrew Roots Judaizer
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Campfire Regular
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Salvation is God's prerogative, something of the spirit and not of this world. Jesus said for us not judge, referring to another's salvation. We are not to curse, that means seriously call for the damnation of another, has nothing to do with potty words.
We definitely can worldly judge someone for worldly actions, including killing them.
God gave us freewill, as individuals and mankind in total... he will not save us from each other here. There is no worldly/physical salvation. We can't 'do' anything on this world, works, to gain spiritual salvation, and no matter how much we want it for those we feel are evil, nothing worldly we can do that absolutely denies it.
Yes, Hitler could be with God, spiritually.
Kent Our genetic makeup and the life circumstances we are born into are not a matter of free will. A beggar living in Calcutta, crippled by his handlers to increase sympathy value and revinue, no education, no prospects and no hope of a better life was not a matter of free will or choice. Hitler, if born in Australia in this day and age would have no hope of realizing his dreams of dictatorship and conquest, and would likely eke out a living as second rate artist.... But…..DBT, living today……has access to the gospel of Christ and makes his decision to reject it. Seems like you would then be “without excuse.” Rather than a decision, it is a lack of conviction based on an understanding of history, the nature of faith, how the gospels were put togethet, their flaws and contradictions, etcetera. Had I been born before the age of science and reason, a more superstitious age, I'd likely to be praying in the chapel with the rest of the village population.....and of course, I would not be me. So, cutting through the bafflegab, is it correct that 1. yes….you have been made aware of those who testify for Jesus. 2. You reject Jesus and liken Him to be sorta like a “superstition.” Is that right? If so, you are clearly standing apart from the Son of God…. You are also denying the Creators claims…and you do not have a relationship with Jesus. So, you are clearly without excuse and a simple denial that “God, you failed to convince me” will not provide you with a pass. Just so you know….. Seek…..Find. Don’t Seek, Don’t Find….. Bafflegab? It's just basic biology and psychology based on genetics, environment and culture. It's not even controversial. Seems like this is an admission that conclusion made is correct. But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK…. He absolutely will not say it.
Illegitimi non carborundum
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I sometimes use the example that Hitler too could be in heaven according to their rules. Never got any real attempt to explain that away. I'll bet there's a ton of pedophile priests wandering around up there too. Nope, again and still, you are totally wrong. Read up on “God gave them over to a depraved mind.” Further it is not “their rules.” You simply are ignorant of how salvation comes to a soul. So accepting Jesus as savior won't guarantee salvation? Hypothetically speaking of course. Are you twisting what I posted? Who was it that mentioned that you twist words? You denied and yet right here it is…… You morphed from Hitler to accepting Jesus. I never mentioned anything about that. Read up on the impact of being given over to a depraved mind. I'll take that as a "you can't explain it" so "you don't know it". You have a solid history of non-answers. You have a long history of simple incomprehension. Remember, you choose…… choose wisely.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK…. He absolutely will not say it. Well good, maybe he will come around.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
Hebrew Roots Judaizer
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Accepting Jesus as a historical figure isn’t the same accepting Jesus as incarnate God and savior. Neither is accepting Jesus as a good man or just another prophet.
Judgement and condemnation await those who reject Jesus as God.
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But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK…. He absolutely will not say it. Well good, maybe he will come around. We are hoping YOU come around.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Salvation is God's grace. It is the gift of freedom from our sins that Jesus made possible by taking the punishment for our sins on the cross.
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Salvation is God's grace. It is the gift of freedom from our sins that Jesus made possible by taking the punishment for our sins on the cross. By faith, we have to believe that salvation is by faith in Jesus’ work on the cross and His resurrection, simple trust in Jesus and the work He did for us, through Jesus alone.
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Salvation is God's prerogative, something of the spirit and not of this world. Jesus said for us not judge, referring to another's salvation. We are not to curse, that means seriously call for the damnation of another, has nothing to do with potty words.
We definitely can worldly judge someone for worldly actions, including killing them.
God gave us freewill, as individuals and mankind in total... he will not save us from each other here. There is no worldly/physical salvation. We can't 'do' anything on this world, works, to gain spiritual salvation, and no matter how much we want it for those we feel are evil, nothing worldly we can do that absolutely denies it.
Yes, Hitler could be with God, spiritually.
Kent Our genetic makeup and the life circumstances we are born into are not a matter of free will. A beggar living in Calcutta, crippled by his handlers to increase sympathy value and revinue, no education, no prospects and no hope of a better life was not a matter of free will or choice. Hitler, if born in Australia in this day and age would have no hope of realizing his dreams of dictatorship and conquest, and would likely eke out a living as second rate artist.... But…..DBT, living today……has access to the gospel of Christ and makes his decision to reject it. Seems like you would then be “without excuse.” Rather than a decision, it is a lack of conviction based on an understanding of history, the nature of faith, how the gospels were put togethet, their flaws and contradictions, etcetera. Had I been born before the age of science and reason, a more superstitious age, I'd likely to be praying in the chapel with the rest of the village population.....and of course, I would not be me. So, cutting through the bafflegab, is it correct that 1. yes….you have been made aware of those who testify for Jesus. 2. You reject Jesus and liken Him to be sorta like a “superstition.” Is that right? If so, you are clearly standing apart from the Son of God…. You are also denying the Creators claims…and you do not have a relationship with Jesus. So, you are clearly without excuse and a simple denial that “God, you failed to convince me” will not provide you with a pass. Just so you know….. Seek…..Find. Don’t Seek, Don’t Find….. Bafflegab? It's just basic biology and psychology based on genetics, environment and culture. It's not even controversial. Seems like this is an admission that conclusion made is correct. But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK…. You are getting off track, I was referring to biology and environment, nature and nurture, psychology and response to the challenges of our environment, physical, political, etcetera, not faith. Faith is one means by which people cope with reality: dying, death, disease, misfortune......
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Campfire Tracker
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Salvation is God's prerogative, something of the spirit and not of this world. Jesus said for us not judge, referring to another's salvation. We are not to curse, that means seriously call for the damnation of another, has nothing to do with potty words.
We definitely can worldly judge someone for worldly actions, including killing them.
God gave us freewill, as individuals and mankind in total... he will not save us from each other here. There is no worldly/physical salvation. We can't 'do' anything on this world, works, to gain spiritual salvation, and no matter how much we want it for those we feel are evil, nothing worldly we can do that absolutely denies it.
Yes, Hitler could be with God, spiritually.
Kent Our genetic makeup and the life circumstances we are born into are not a matter of free will. A beggar living in Calcutta, crippled by his handlers to increase sympathy value and revinue, no education, no prospects and no hope of a better life was not a matter of free will or choice. Hitler, if born in Australia in this day and age would have no hope of realizing his dreams of dictatorship and conquest, and would likely eke out a living as second rate artist.... But…..DBT, living today……has access to the gospel of Christ and makes his decision to reject it. Seems like you would then be “without excuse.” Rather than a decision, it is a lack of conviction based on an understanding of history, the nature of faith, how the gospels were put togethet, their flaws and contradictions, etcetera. Had I been born before the age of science and reason, a more superstitious age, I'd likely to be praying in the chapel with the rest of the village population.....and of course, I would not be me. So, cutting through the bafflegab, is it correct that 1. yes….you have been made aware of those who testify for Jesus. 2. You reject Jesus and liken Him to be sorta like a “superstition.” Is that right? If so, you are clearly standing apart from the Son of God…. You are also denying the Creators claims…and you do not have a relationship with Jesus. So, you are clearly without excuse and a simple denial that “God, you failed to convince me” will not provide you with a pass. Just so you know….. Seek…..Find. Don’t Seek, Don’t Find….. Bafflegab? It's just basic biology and psychology based on genetics, environment and culture. It's not even controversial. Seems like this is an admission that conclusion made is correct. But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK…. He absolutely will not say it. It's not a matter of 'rejecting Jesus.' I think that there was a charismatic Rabbi by the name of Yeshua Ben Yoseph - 'Jesus' - at the time, upon whom the legend was built. Just look at the history and development of the Gospels, Jesus wrote nothing. All we have are the words of writers written decades after the described events, copying, embellishing, constructing a narrative to suit a theology.
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Salvation is God's prerogative, something of the spirit and not of this world. Jesus said for us not judge, referring to another's salvation. We are not to curse, that means seriously call for the damnation of another, has nothing to do with potty words.
We definitely can worldly judge someone for worldly actions, including killing them.
God gave us freewill, as individuals and mankind in total... he will not save us from each other here. There is no worldly/physical salvation. We can't 'do' anything on this world, works, to gain spiritual salvation, and no matter how much we want it for those we feel are evil, nothing worldly we can do that absolutely denies it.
Yes, Hitler could be with God, spiritually.
Kent Our genetic makeup and the life circumstances we are born into are not a matter of free will. A beggar living in Calcutta, crippled by his handlers to increase sympathy value and revinue, no education, no prospects and no hope of a better life was not a matter of free will or choice. Hitler, if born in Australia in this day and age would have no hope of realizing his dreams of dictatorship and conquest, and would likely eke out a living as second rate artist.... But…..DBT, living today……has access to the gospel of Christ and makes his decision to reject it. Seems like you would then be “without excuse.” Rather than a decision, it is a lack of conviction based on an understanding of history, the nature of faith, how the gospels were put togethet, their flaws and contradictions, etcetera. Had I been born before the age of science and reason, a more superstitious age, I'd likely to be praying in the chapel with the rest of the village population.....and of course, I would not be me. So, cutting through the bafflegab, is it correct that 1. yes….you have been made aware of those who testify for Jesus. 2. You reject Jesus and liken Him to be sorta like a “superstition.” Is that right? If so, you are clearly standing apart from the Son of God…. You are also denying the Creators claims…and you do not have a relationship with Jesus. So, you are clearly without excuse and a simple denial that “God, you failed to convince me” will not provide you with a pass. Just so you know….. Seek…..Find. Don’t Seek, Don’t Find….. Bafflegab? It's just basic biology and psychology based on genetics, environment and culture. It's not even controversial. Seems like this is an admission that conclusion made is correct. But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK…. You are getting off track, I was referring to biology and environment, nature and nurture, psychology and response to the challenges of our environment, physical, political, etcetera, not faith. Faith is one means by which people cope with reality: dying, death, disease, misfortune...... Nah, I’m not off track. This is a thread on Salvation. Don’t be fooled, your clinging to “there is no scientific evidence for God” will not hold up on judgment day. Seek God…..Find God. Don’t seek God, Don’t Find God.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Outfitter
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But, I note that you will not come right out and say that you deny and reject Jesus…… OK…. He absolutely will not say it. Well good, maybe he will come around. We are hoping YOU come around. How so?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
Hebrew Roots Judaizer
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Hastings,
Within Unitarian thought how do you know that you’re performing well enough to make the cut?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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There's no performance that makes the cut.
Kent
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So if I understand things correctly, you can do whatever horrendous things you want to but as long as you ask forgiveness before you die all is good with the Big Guy.
Good to know...
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Salvation is God's grace. It is the gift of freedom from our sins that Jesus made possible by taking the punishment for our sins on the cross. Jesus says works must follow faith. 6And the Lord answered, “If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.
7Which of you whose servant comes in from plowing or shepherding in the field will say to him, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8Instead, won’t he tell him, ‘Prepare my meal and dress yourself to serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? 9Does he thank the servant because he did what he was told? 10So you also, when you have done everything commanded of you, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ ”
Politics is War by Other Means
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