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Campfire Outfitter
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You apparently missed the point too. The point is that it doesn't matter in the least if every square inch was covered or if one mountain top was left out. If all the highest mountains under the whole sky were not covered then God is a deceiver. If God is a deceiver here, how can we trust anything in Scripture? Mount Everest, Ararat, Pikes Peak, Denali were under water? Paul was an apostle? He really talked to Jesus and really went to the 3rd level of heaven? I say there was a catastrophic flood, and Paul did write some fantastic letters. Or at least someone wrote them.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Outfitter
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You apparently missed the point too. The point is that it doesn't matter in the least if every square inch was covered or if one mountain top was left out. If all the highest mountains under the whole sky were not covered then God is a deceiver. If God is a deceiver here, how can we trust anything in Scripture? Why would anyone think God was a deceiver? The deceivers were those who embellished or made up what actually happened, especially since much was passed down by word of mouth for centuries before anyone wrote it down. Or maybe "deceiver" is too strong a word. Perhaps they just wanted to make stories more interesting.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Sep 2011
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I believe the flood covered all the earth.
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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Campfire Tracker
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You apparently missed the point too. The point is that it doesn't matter in the least if every square inch was covered or if one mountain top was left out. If all the highest mountains under the whole sky were not covered then God is a deceiver. If God is a deceiver here, how can we trust anything in Scripture? We don't have any accounts direct from a god, and there's nothing to say he/she/it exists. Man is the deciever and thers's no reason to trust anything in scripture not least because it has been proven in many cases to be factually wrong.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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KJV Genesis 7:19–20 “And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered”. And 15 cubits is what? Maybe 50 feet, maybe less. The ice age ended. Yes, there was climate change then also. Water from the ocean broke over into what is now the Black Sea and inundated early civilization there. Other similar events happened all over the world. That is why there are legends of a great flood in other societies. It isn't far fetched to say that an event somewhat like the Noah story happened. A farmer on the shore of the lake that became the Black Sea had a boat that he had recently built and loaded up his family and animals and survived. My family has legends and lore that go back to the early 1800s and tell of how my 3X Great grandparents eloped in Georgia and ended up in Louisiana for the 1810 census. And the older generations told me stories about that which may or may not have been exactly accurate and that was only a little over 200 years ago. No telling how a story 2000-3000 years old could get a bit romanticized in the retelling. The story is wrong no matter how you look at it. It's most likely a rehash of older stories that are probably based on rising sea levels and flooding during the centuries after the ice age. Myths and legends told and retold.
Last edited by DBT; 05/10/23.
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. Sure, you can do that, yet whatever you do believe does not necessarily mean that it's true.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. No serious educated or intelligent person believes that. Such a flood within the last 6000 years (which Genesis says is the age of the earth) would have left ample and indelible geological evidence. It didn't.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. Sure, you can do that, yet whatever you do believe does not necessarily mean that it's true. Says the gov loving lcokdown king on gov control land haha. Give up any guns lately?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
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Anyone believing in a young earth or man caused climate change ought to tour the federal facility Fossil Butte near Kemmerer Wyoming. Very interesting and hard to leave there believing the earth is just a few thousand years old.
I am a long ways from being an atheist and I believe Jesus was who HE claimed to be, but some of the "inerrancy of the bible" folks could certainly dissuade an atheist from swapping sides.
The bible is a combination of books, not a book. It has several authors and some are merely stating their opinion. Take Ecclesiastes for instance, it was written by Solomon after a long life and after he realized that all his striving was for naught. The histories of the Kings are woefully brief and don't give much info. I could go on but you get what I'm saying.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Dec 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. No serious educated or intelligent person believes that. Such a flood within the last 6000 years (which Genesis says is the age of the earth) would have left ample and indelible geological evidence. It didn't. Oh there were floods alright, just not a worldwide inundation. The lake Missoula ice dam gave way and there is plenty of evidence in Washington state scablands where boulders rode the ice to places they otherwise would not be. I guess any humans around at the time probably thought it was a world wide flood. Ancient humans had a different conception of the world than we do due to the abysmal ignorance and lack of mobility they necessarily lived with.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Ranger
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. No serious educated or intelligent person believes that. Such a flood within the last 6000 years (which Genesis says is the age of the earth) would have left ample and indelible geological evidence. It didn't. You are trying to use the logical fallacy "No Scotsman". There are millions of seriously educated scientist who study geology and even have made or make predictions about what they will find. You obviously haven't seriously looked into geology. I met an evolutionists with a Ph.D. in hydraulics when I was young and he was old. He used to work for the U.S. government to tell them where a dam should be placed to accomplish what they wanted. While studying the Grand Canyon he became convinced slow gradual layers over millions of years was NOT a feasible explanation for the canyon. Eventually he accepted a worldwide flood was the only reasonable explanation. Even the tallest mountains in the Himalayas, Alps, Andes , Rockies have water born rock sediment containing marine fossils. Biblical creationists predict this. Evolutionist try to explain it without appealing to a worldwide flood. Evolutions have no mechanism to explain why the 2,000 feet of dirt that used to be on top of the dirt next to the Grand Canyon is not there. Creationists have a mechanism to explain it. Almost every road cut through even small hills display water born sediment. Evolutionists have faith in something they have never seen or heard of in their studies. Creationist have faith in Someone Who was there and told Moses about it. There was only one word of mouth and it was not handed down for generation. The information came straight from God to Moses.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. Why?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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I am a long ways from being an atheist and I believe Jesus was who HE claimed to be, .... How do you know what Jesus claimed? There's lots of claims about him, but that book is seriously flawed.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
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The Apostle John was with Jesus for 3 years during His earthly ministry. The Apostle John is so sure that Jesus is God that he writes: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. And the Apostle John tells us shortly thereafter in the same text that Jesus is the Word. And Jesus’ “I am” statements in John’s Gospel parallel the “I am” statements of God in the Old Testament. In John’s Gospel, Jesus claimed perfect identification with God the Father, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” And in John’s Gospel, Jesus claims divine authority and judgement. The Apostle Peter was with Jesus for 3 years during His earthly ministry. The Apostle Peter called Jesus “God.” The Apostle Thomas was with Jesus for 3 years during His earthly ministry. The Apostle Thomas called Jesus “God.” …I believe Jesus was who HE claimed to be,… Translation = Since Jesus didn’t say it the way that I require, I’m gonna ignore the divine claims by Jesus in John’s Gospel. And I’m gonna ignore what the Apostle John said about Jesus. And I’m gonna ignore what the Apostle Peter said about Jesus. And I’m gonna ignore what the Apostle Thomas said about Jesus. Because what they said doesn’t fit in with my theology. …but some of the "inerrancy of the Bible" folks could certainly dissuade an atheist from swapping sides. How many atheists have you, with your theology, convinced to swap sides…?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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…but some of the "inerrancy of the Bible" folks could certainly dissuade an atheist from swapping sides. How many atheists have you, with your theology, convinced to swap sides…? Hastings is probably on par with you in that regard. Reading the bible and applying critical thinking is an excellent way to arrive at atheism, and possibly even Christian antitheism.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Tracker
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. No serious educated or intelligent person believes that. Such a flood within the last 6000 years (which Genesis says is the age of the earth) would have left ample and indelible geological evidence. It didn't. You are trying to use the logical fallacy "No Scotsman". There are millions of seriously educated scientist who study geology and even have made or make predictions about what they will find. You obviously haven't seriously looked into geology. I met an evolutionists with a Ph.D. in hydraulics when I was young and he was old. He used to work for the U.S. government to tell them where a dam should be placed to accomplish what they wanted. While studying the Grand Canyon he became convinced slow gradual layers over millions of years was NOT a feasible explanation for the canyon. Eventually he accepted a worldwide flood was the only reasonable explanation. Even the tallest mountains in the Himalayas, Alps, Andes , Rockies have water born rock sediment containing marine fossils. Biblical creationists predict this. Evolutionist try to explain it without appealing to a worldwide flood. Evolutions have no mechanism to explain why the 2,000 feet of dirt that used to be on top of the dirt next to the Grand Canyon is not there. Creationists have a mechanism to explain it. Almost every road cut through even small hills display water born sediment. Evolutionists have faith in something they have never seen or heard of in their studies. Creationist have faith in Someone Who was there and told Moses about it. There was only one word of mouth and it was not handed down for generation. The information came straight from God to Moses. Have you heard of plate tectonics and mountain formation?
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. Sure, you can do that, yet whatever you do believe does not necessarily mean that it's true. Says the gov loving lcokdown king on gov control land haha. Give up any guns lately? So, with no ability to debate rationally, you poop your nappy and wail for attention like a baby.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2021
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Jesus is the one who said the law and the prophets would last as long as heaven and earth do, not me. But Jesus did not say that. And you are twisting the words that He did say. If there ever was a verse that the Torahists hang their hats on, it’s Matthew 5:18. This verse clearly does not present a clear and unambiguous teaching that the Mosaic Law would last as long as heaven and earth do, as the Torahists claim. Jesus is clearly teaching that there won’t be even the slightest change in the Law of Moses until some condition is met. Either until heaven and earth pass away, or until all in the Mosaic Law is accomplished, or both. Heaven and earth clearly have literally not passed away. But the Torahists themselves clearly do contortions to try and explain why they are no longer bound by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of commands in the Mosaic Law, as we’ve seen done right here on this thread. So clearly things much more significant than an iota or a dot have already passed from the law. And clearly there have been many changes to the Mosaic Law that resulted from the redemptive work of Jesus Himself. For example, the sacrifice of animals is required under the Mosaic law to atone for sin. But the New Testament teaches that Jesus was our sin offering “once and for all,” and therefore “there is no longer any offering for sin.” The Law of Moses required a regular offering for sin. The New Testament does not. That alone is a pretty significant change. Another example, the Mosaic Law required a big curtain in the temple to separate the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place. The Torah describes it as “a veil of blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen. It shall be made with cherubim skillfully worked into it.” But in the New Testament, at the very moment Jesus died on the cross, God Himself ripped that temple veil in two from top to bottom. That’s a pretty significant occurrence, and it’s a pretty significant change. Another example, the Law of Moses required that all priests come from the tribe of Levi, yet under the New Covenant, Jesus is our High Priest, even though He is from the tribe of Judah. That’s also a pretty significant change. And Jesus made it crystal clear that He came to fulfill all that was in the Law. And He fulfilled it. He made it crystal clear that He came to accomplish all that was in the Mosaic Law. And He accomplished it. And in doing so, He clearly brought the Law to its pre-planned and pre-designated retirement. Antlers: You know how to read and you know heaven and earth have not passed. Jesus has not yet returned and therefore "till al be fulfilled" has not happened. Heaven and earth have not passed away. Jesus would not have left his remarks about so important a subject open to speculation and interpretation. And in verse 20 Jesus clearly stated " That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the the scribes and the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven". And after that he goes into a long spiel about the law and makes it plain that the letter of law and more importantly the spirit of the law are to be followed. I understand folks would like to throw out the most important sentence of the sermon on the mount but alas, it means what it says. There is no code language or ambiguity. This was not a parable with an intrinsic message such as The Prodigal Son where the son was mankind and the father was God and the message was that all God wishes for and requires is repentance (and reform) and return to him. Hastings Allow me to explain where you have missed it. You are taking the quote "till all be fulfilled." to mean all things. Jesus was not saying that not one jot or title would pass until all things were fulfilled. as in the end of Revelations. Jesus was saying that all the law, every jot and title would stand until all of the LAW had been fulfilled. The question then becomes has the law been fulfilled? If you understand scripture you know that it has because of the role Jesus played. It's exactly all Jesus accomplished and the reason he died on the cross. Let me explain my friend. Jesus met every requirement of the law by being completely sinless, and yet paying the full penalty just as if he had committed every sin. In this way Jesus both kept the law, and paid the price for not keeping the law for all who trust in him. That's how the law is fulfilled. Now as to Jesus saying, "Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees". The meaning here is to shock the audience. Those scribes and Pharisees were knownn to be sticklers to all the law and the sacrifices. Jesus was telling them that all their laws wouldn't be enough. They would need his righteousness which exceeded all their best efforts in keeping the law. They would need his righteousness by faith in him. You mentioned we need to compare Scripture with Scripture to get the correct understanding. Jesus was referring to faith. Abraham believed and it was counted as righteousness. APOSTLE PAUL writes believing results in righteousness. Jesus was telling His listeners to have faith. Something the Pharisees lacked. Jesus was telling them that it was Him they lacked. He was speaking of them needing his righteousness which is only by faith in him. Jesus is the point. Just having faith would be useless. Abraham believed God and it was accounted as righteousness, not just Abraham believed ,as you miss quoted.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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You apparently missed the point too. The point is that it doesn't matter in the least if every square inch was covered or if one mountain top was left out. If all the highest mountains under the whole sky were not covered then God is a deceiver. If God is a deceiver here, how can we trust anything in Scripture? Why would anyone think God was a deceiver? The deceivers were those who embellished or made up what actually happened, especially since much was passed down by word of mouth for centuries before anyone wrote it down. Or maybe "deceiver" is too strong a word. Perhaps they just wanted to make stories more interesting. Because Ringman thinks God himself wrote every word of the King James bible, and apparently only speaks old English.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I believe the flood covered all the earth. Sure, you can do that, yet whatever you do believe does not necessarily mean that it's true. Says the gov loving lcokdown king on gov control land haha. Give up any guns lately? So, with no ability to debate rationally, you poop your nappy and wail for attention like a baby. Nope, just having fun at your big gov loving asses expense haha
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