Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Primers ? Proves nothing but interesting.

Out of curiosity I performed a small primer experiment with what I had on hand, primers being a little hard to come by lately.
Equipment used, Pro Chrono chronograph,NEF 22 Hornet, heavy barrel,Rem 700 ADL 223, rechambered from 222, Harris bipod front and sand bag rear. All velocity's are average of 9 shots, groups are average of 3, 3 shot groups.Air temp 63 deg. start 74 deg. stop.
Load 1 22 Hornet, 12.5 Lil Gun, WW case weighed within .5 grains
40 Nos. Bal. Tip at OAL 1.960. .020 off lands
Primer Velocity Group
CCI 400 2787 1 1/2" Large velocity variation
CCI BR 4 2857 1/2" Smaller variations
CCI 450 2890 1" Smallest Variation
Rem 6 1/2 2898 1 1/4" Moderate Variations
Load 2 22 Hornet 12.5 Lil Gun, WW cases weighed within .5 grains.
45 Sierra Hornet at OAL 1.790 .005 off lands.
CCI 400 2737 1 1/2" All loads showed large
CCI BR 4 2745 1" velocity variations.
CCI 450 2749 1 1/8"
Rem 6 1/2 2749 1 1/2"
Load 3 223 Rem. 26.5 H335 Fed cases weighed within 1 grain
50 Nos. Bal. Tip at OAL 2.395 .020 off lands.
CCI 400 3231 11/16" Velocity variation 34 FPS.
CCI BR 4 3237 5/8" Velocity variation 9 FPS
CCI 450 3234 1/2" Velocity variation 34 FPS
Rem 6 1/2 3236 15/16" Velocity variation 14 FPS
Primer sensitive Hornet showed some definite preferences, the 223 not so much. Evidently I have to much time on my hands.

On the contrary - you have used your time very wisely indeed.

I am interested in your results as I have 'created' a problem for myself in that I no longer resize my cases so I expect a problem with ignition consistency due to too light a bullet hold by the case. This means that primers may help solve this one. I use AR2205 (H4227) and Federal primers. This stuff burns with only an air rifle pellet over it, sitting in a greased paper cup in the neck. (The powder stops the pellet from falling into the case). With half powder charge (and careful handling), the shot is very quiet and penetration into phone books quite impressive. But with full powder charge, penetration into particle board is greater than a 22lr and the hole is bigger!

Thanks for your post,

303Guy

303 Guy, I too used to shoot air rifle pellets in the 22 Hornet,I used a different approach than you are.I quit doing this because occasionally the skirt would break off the pellet and lodge in the barrel not a good situation.I suspect that using your technique you may encounter ignition variations not so much from the primer as from the possibility of combustion chamber volume variations. Simply put upon primer ignition the whole mass(powder & pellet) may move forward into the chamber throat and thus increase volume of the combustion chamber,and yet on other shots every thing will stay put as assembled thus reducing volume. At best velocities will be all over the map and at worst may set up an ignition situation similar to a bore obstruction. I am in no way trying to belittle your experimentation just my best guess at some possibilities. I am all for experimentation otherwise I wouldn't have tried pellets,just go slow and be careful.

Honestly it proves that, at least in your case that if you want the most out of your rifle you should be using CCI BR-4s and nothing else.

Thanks for that quarterboredave

I did try these half charge loads at the club one evening and got rather interesting groups at 25m. Interesting that you had pellet skirt separation. I do know that mine were supersonic - from the 'crack' they made. Recovered pellets were almost intact. But pellets are not really all that useful. (Unless rats become an issue).

303Guy

quarterboredave

When you encountered pellet skirt separation, did you ever fire another over one? I am thinking that a pellet would be too soft and light to damage the bore this way?

I am planning on turning a few 'pellet' cases with a parallel inner bore which will hold the pellet further back against a small shoulder and have a much smaller powder volume. If I ever get to hunt small varmints where over travel is an issue, I would be able to reload these specials with a pocket decapper/primer.

303Guy

qua..,

Try small pistol primers.

I suspect I did fire some rounds over a separated skirt, as the one I found was during cleaning after a shooting session. I suspect your right about it not being a serious problem I just don't like the idea of stuff lodged in the bore and then shooting over it. No matter how mild the load or soft the obstruction. I used 3 dimples around the case neck at the point that the pellet would sit on them and be flush with the case mouth used a small center punch to make them. Initially used a primer only for propellent good for indoor practice with a proper backstop. Then I started useing small charges of Bullseye and was up to 22 long rifle velocity when I found the seperated skirt, stopped using powder, still use the primer only load some.
Will dispatch mice up to about 10 yards but doesn't make holes in the barn walls and floors, more fun than traping the little buggers.

I haven't had much luck with pistol primers and LiL Gun powder seems to work better for me with the hotter rifle primers. Have loaded for several different Hornets over the years and often the best accuracy came with pistol primers, especially with some of the faster burning powders. Right now am shooting a CZ 527 using 13.0 LiL Gun and CCI 450 magnum primers 40 Nosler BT, 3 shot groups stay right in the 1/2" range. I just weened the N.E.F onto Lil Gun, and the 12.5 L.G. CCI BR4 and Nosler 40 BT, shoots
in the 1/2" area with some groups as small a 1/4". Both make fine Sage Rat rifles out to well past 200 yds. Good enough for me.

I think your testing is very interesting.
I have always read and heard that primers did make a differance, but I have never changed them to see. I was wondering about this very thing just yesterday. I will try changing primers on a load or two and see what happens.

Thanks for posting

pullet, did you ever try those different primers? Apparently, if the primer gets damaged during seating, it affects the ignition rate. (I am told the primer compound can get 'cracked' and I'm guessing that will interrupt the 'detonation' process).

Regards

I didn't see this topic initially. The first thing I noticed was that the charge was weighed only to within .5 grain. That works out to almost a 4% variation, which is very large indeed.In general, charge variation has to be within 1% or risk being the largest variable - masking any other change such as primer substitution.

All rifles are different, and so I will not claim to have the one and only "best" Hornet load, but the one that works in a very large number of Hornets (and which I always recommend to start with) is:

WW cases, FL sized.
Rem 6 1/2 or CCI 500 small pistol
13.0 LilGun
45 gr bullet
Medium crimp with Lee FCD

Bullet pull is a major issue in the Hornet. With such thin and weak neck walls, a too-powerful primer can jump the bullet into the throat before the powder ignites. But it can never be consistent, so case volume changes, bullet engraving and alignment changes and the pressure curve changes. All mean erratic velocity and accuracy. Strong bullet pull, a crimp and a mild primer are three tools to counteract weak neck tension.

Rocky,
Glad to see your comments. I think the confusing lay out of the post caused some confusion ( shows my lack of computer skills). All powder charges were weighed to within a gnats wisker, did have some variation in case weights but tried to keep that to a minimum with out investing a great deal of time. Funny how different folks have different experiences with similar components. The Hornet has been a favorite of mine for close to 30 years and during that time I suspect I've tried every trick known to hornet shooters to extract accuracy from this cartridge as well as going through a number of rifles. Being of an experimental nature, when I first saw your comments on useing the Lee factory crimp die I did the aha a new technique and obtained the necessary equipment to try it. Short version of long story I saw some improvment in some loads but not enough in my present go to load to warrant the extra step in the loading process. I also believe my accuracy requirements are quite different from other folks, a variable not often mentioned when the subject of accurate loads is discussed. One last comment. What I was observing with the different primers was how little variation in velocity there was between them even with the so called hard to ignite ball powders. I've seen reports of quite large velocity changes when changing primers and that change being used to determine the strength (if you will) of a given primer. Not saying it doesn't happen just hasn't happened to me yet.

Amen, that's why I always add that line about rifles being different. They simply are. But then, I know people who don't like lobster, others that don't like steak.

I'm one who did a series of primer "hotness" tests. My results were pretty much (almost amazingly) the same as others doing the same tests, but with different powders/cartridges. I used the 223 for small rifle and 308 for large, and ranked primer strength by the delivered velocity. Not the most scientific, I'm the first to say. But possibly indicative, especially when my results came so close to those of others using other methods.

Back to the Hornet. I continue to say that the smaller the cartridge, the larger the observed effect for a given variable. It's a question of proportion, where little differences in input make big changes in results. But it's still my all-time favorite round!

Thanks for that, RockyRaab. I had speculated that very point. For now, I am making use of the long hornet neck and a tighter than normal neck size. I am assuming that for consistency, one would need to clean and dry the internal neck surface?

I have only recently acquired one but I have leaned toward a hornet for many years. Now that I have one - well what can I say? It's the greatest!
Mine is an old Anschutz, which fits me like a glove. It is smooth and well balanced with a Wundhammer grip - but no Schnabel for-end. If it won't shoot straight, I'll re-barrel it to a tighter twist hornet. (I am leaning toward a 6mm/hornet wildcat).

RockyRaab,since changing to Lil'Gun, I have taken to neck sizing without re-expanding. Bullet grip seems tight and pressures are high. (With no neck tension, pressures are very low). The powder burns very clean too. I am using Federal 205 primers. Apparently, these are very sensitive primers with not too much power - similar, it seems, to small pistol primers. I am heading off to the range on Sunday. Loading those little cartridges is quite fun!