Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles What constitutes big game vs varmint rifle?

While I am not one to just go with the flow. Observations seem to indicate a majority of hunters would consider 25 cal & up as a big game rifle. Consensus seems to indicate 6mm / .243 calibers & less to be varmint cartridges. If these general statements may be considered true, may I share that I disagree in a fairly notable way about generalities of how bullet diameter, makes or breaks the definition of a big game rifle.

To elaborate on my opinion, Big game for most folks I know, is more often than not Whitetail & mule deer that seldom exceed 300 lbs. Id like to make a case that bullet construction is a big factor in what makes a big game cartridge vs a varmint cartridge. Yes Black bear & elk come up once in a great while as well, perhaps even a moose.

Based on my 40 years of experience & much of that was with the 6mm REM with 100 grain spire points. 6mm is plenty for Whitetail deer with a proper bullet IMHO. Lots of deer hunters do well with the .243 Winchester & a proper bullet. Quite a few guys Are even doing well with the 6x45 (.223 necked up to .243) on deer.

Last two seasons I gave a Bolt action 6mm ARC a try on Whitetail using a 108 grain Elite hunter the 1st season with fine results on a 254 yard shot on a brute of a mature whitetail. Second season with the 6mm ARC I opted to give the 87 grain Absolute hunter a try on whitetail. Filled two doe tags opening day of season with fine results again.

Seems to me the 6mm's are up to the deer hunting chore, when selecting the right hunting bullet & of corse, doing your part sending the proper projectile for the task through the vitals.

Some may call a .243 a duel task cross over gun, though the same could be said of larger calibers as well.

Others have been quite happy with 223 caliber for deer & I suspect they experience rather consistent success as well. Can't say I have much experience with the 223 on deer.

This is a very legitimate question which will likely stir some discussion. I’ve seen lots of deer taken with various .22-.25 caliber hunting rifles. I have no qualms about using them as they are adequate.

Maybe not ideal, but certainly adequate.

I’ll start out saying the cartridges don’t make a rifle varmint or big game. Everyone here knows that 25 cal and 6mm can work for big game and the heavy 22 cal bullets can work on game like coues. I tend to see the Small Rifle Primer cartridges as more of a varmint round. I know you can get 308 and Creedmoor in srp too. Another sign of a Varminter is longer and or heavier barrel. My varmint rifles aren’t usually carried but a short distance so the extra 3 pounds don’t really matter like it would if I carried it all day with other gear.. A lighter trigger tends to fit a Varminter more than a practical sporter I think but that’s arguable. I call Varminter rifles Target/Varmint because that term is more useful since it’s kind of the same thing. A lot of varmint shooting where I’m from is not as active as the range shooting I do because varmints are fewer than they were in the past.

This oughta be good. Defining what you consider big game is as important as defining the rifle.

I'll get some popcorn...

Now you have to define "Varmints" .

To me varmints hunting is mainly high volume colony varmints, GS and PDs add in GH and marmots. Rifles HBs in any of the fast light rounds.

Then there are predators, fox ,coyotes and cats then do you call them, stalk them or ambush them over bait. This is lower volume, maybe packing rifles farther, heavier/stouter bullets. Do you want to save fur or have a nice mount or just want to kill them dead.

I think I have a dozen rifles that cover everything above from 20 cal to 6.5mm and I've been know to shoot a bunch of $100. Fox with cast bullets out of a 300 Sav.

Big game to me is anything over a 100 lbs and a big game rifle is one that will kill them reliably when things aren't perfect. To me that means penetrating from any angle and leaving a blood trail. If you still hunt or track whitetails you aren't going to get the shots you have over a feeder, bait barrel or in a food plot.


So if your hunting varmints with it it is a varmint rifle. That said if your shooting literally hundreds of rounds a day a light recoiling round that is flat shooting, easy on barrels sounds like a varmint round to me.

AND.....my predators [wolves] may be the size of some deer.

Varmint...or big game?Big game rifle? Or Varmint rifle?

They also must have some damn big varmints in places. I have always wondered why they would make a 308 win that says "varmint" on it.


If it takes a 308w to anchor a varmint, it must be in fact a real "heavy varmint"^^

That is a "heavy varmint"^^^

Well, I hunted jackrabbits with a 300 Win Mag when I was in High School. One of only a couple of guns where I actually shot the barrel out. Does that count?

A campfire member has a 460 Weatherby varmint rifle.

I killed my heaviest varmint with a 243, a very large feral boar.

I'd consider this 223 AI strictly a varmint rig

Salvage target s/shot action.....28" full cylinder/no taper 9 twist barrel

Choate varmint stock with 1# lead shot added to grip cavity

6-24 Vortex PST glass.......weighs in at 18# as shown

Goes from truck bed to portable table & kill p/dogs

Mostly what steps in front of the rifle is what makes it a varmint or big game rifle.

I’ve never shot anything bigger than a mean old pig or ten with a 25gr .17 Remington or any smaller than a pesky pine squirrel with a 458Win.

Can’t honestly say I ever lost an animal because my rifle was too small or ruined one because it was too big.

Placement is KING

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


THIS


...about wraps its up. next topic!

growing up in PENN I knew guys that shot ground hogs and crows with 30-06 and 35 REM. Whatever you have handy I guess...

I would think whether or not the game is dangerous might add to the validity of a rifle being called a big game rifle... If pigs, bears, lions , wolves, African critters with big teeth, crocodiles/alligators, and other nasty critters are on the menu you should probably consider whatever you select as adequate to the job as a big game rifle. Everything else is just for fun and could possibly be called a small game rifle - unless you're having a cigar, whiskey, and BS session with your buddies- then any old lie will suffice...

If you’ve shot at, or killed a varmint with it, it’s a varmint rifle.

Hunterapp: It depends on what you are aiming your Rifle at (Big Game or Varmint).
Don't let the sounds of your own wheels make you crazy.
I have kill't Varmints with a 7/m Remington Magnum and a 308 Winchester (Remington 700 BDL Varmint) and I have kill't Big Game with a 223 Remington.
Again, what you are "aiming at" is the final definitive answer.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Sounds simple enough, If I am in the middle of a colony of sage rats with a 338 Lapua, I am holding a varmint rifle. Though if It is opening day of dear season and a coyote is taken with a 6mm ARC then I was shooting a predator cartridge. Then 45 minute later from the same deer blind a deer is harvested, then I was shooting a smallish big game cartridge.

Now you’ve got it….😁

I’ve never shot a deer with a 223, but a 223 with a 62 grain Bear claw will kill 200 pound pigs at 200 yards easily.


Grandkids kill deer with 80 grain TTSX out of a 243 without a problem

The day I got my 375H&H, after sighting it in, I shot a ground hog at about 80 yrds. I found it quite adequate. As I recall I used the Winchester 300 gr solid with the truncated nose. The only ammunition I could find at the time. I must admit I was never charged by the varmint. Note: I have also used a 300 Win mag when that was what I was holding.

Well it depends on what a varmint is where you are. Big game to me starts with elk. Deer and such are medium game. So looking at it thusly a "big game" rifle in my humble opinion is something I would shoot an elk with. A varmint in my area generally is a coyote, raccoon or a feral hog.

Rickt300: Suppose I may get a different notion of big game from my state's, Big Game application process. Game categorized as big game on our applications include Elk, Mule deer. Whitetail, Big horn sheep, Antelope, Mountain lion & turkey of all things.

I still can't identify a turkey as a big game critter.

"Big Game" is anything (that you hunt) that is not a varmint. Varmints include hogs. Large game doesn't mean the same as big game. You have varmints, small game, medium game, large game and heavy dangerous game - all but varmints are big game. Varmint rifles include walk-around varmint rifles, but if you use the term varmint rifle, you usually mean a long heavy barreled rifle that weighs more than a normal hunting rifle. Varmint calibers in the old days included .25 caliber. You could use a .270 with light projectiles on varmints, but it still wouldn't be a varmint rifle if it was your walk-around big game rifle.

That one always made me laugh as well. It's a bird ,customarily ground sluiced with a shotgun during mating season. How people get so worked up about it is wayyyy beyond me.

Been following this thread, and after 3 pages, still have the same initial thoughts....

Why do we even differentiate between a big game rifle or a varmint rifle?

Years ago, after chasing deer all over the local mountains and not able to get a decent shot on one, I came home on the last day. The wife asked me if I got anything, and I told her I had skunked.... She told me that "Big Neighborhood Buck" is out behind the house, down the hill a little way, grazing with a batch of does.

I had put everything up, so the one thing that was quick to grab, was my old Marline 25M rimfire in 22 Win mag.
With a 40 grain FMJ filled magazine I kept nearby, walked out on the back deck and about 50 to 60 yds away was the buck.
One shot right in the ear, and he was down, and was busy kicking in a death throe. A minute later, he was dead.

Or a turkey out I ran across while out hunting, a big tom...all I had with me was a 243, since I was deer hunting.
Took a rest against a pine tree and we had turkey for dinner a couple of nights later.. I've shot them in the yards, with a 17 HMR on a Ruger 17/77 action.

Does this make the Marlin 25M, in 22 Mag, taking down a 235 pound blacktail a Big Game Rifle?
Or a 243 with a 100 grainSP bullet a varmint rifle? when used on a turkey.

Use what you have when the opportunity fits the job.

Is a heavy barrel 223 bolt action, that I can shoot 500 plus ground squirrels in an afternoon, with ammo loaded with Shotgun powder, a varmint rifle, when I can use the same ammo and rifle and drop a blacktail with a head shot, does that make it a varmint rifle or a big game rifle?

Bottom line, a rifle is a rifle...just make sure it has enough ooomph to do the job at hand, and shot placement...

if ya wanna use a 458 Win mag on ground squirrels/ sage rats... feel free to... I don't think many folks would suddenly call that a varmint rifle.... If you can shoot crooked politicians with it, then you can call it a varmint rifle.

Above Seafire says: "If you can shoot crooked politicians with it, then you can call it a varmint rifle".
Now I like that!!!

If you are shooting at big game it’s a big game rifle, at varmints, a Varmint rifle!

Not bothered by a failure to retrieve varmints. Simple as that. That's where the difference lies. Not so much about the animal, more about intention.

Last night we finished somewhere in the 80s on dairy farm rats. Majority are DRT, but a fair number make it to dens squealing to a fate of being eaten by colleagues. A CCI Quiet segmented HP is no big game round, right? Nobody in their right mind would use one on deer.

OK, back in the '80s-'90s was shooting meat deer in Columbia Cty, NY. Guy near me drew the attention of ENCON. Seems he was popping every deer on his lawn with a .22rf. He never followed them up, never pushed them.
About 50-100 yds from his house commenced a graveyard of deer, think they decided it was more than 100. Obviously, there were others lost or that survived.

Around my place (central ME) I can't regard .22 and .24 centerfires as big game cartridges for deer. Yes, they kill. IME except with CNS hits they do not anchor, or even close to it. No discernible blood trail, tho sometimes there's pink mist on snow. Cover is a nightmare, not flat, too many deadfalls and root holes to hide a dead animal. If your experience differs, fine. More than likely your circumstances differ too. We use .300s and, lately, a .375. Runs are shorter, blood trail more reliable (yet to need it).

To be clear about this, under different circumstances I have (and would) kill deer (and larger) with .22 and .24 CFs. Just not here.

For me the 6 mm bore just don’t fit
Too big for small stuff and to small for big stuff
Not that it won’t work fine there are just better choices
I have prairie dog guns chambered in 6-250
And 25-308. They are fun to shoot prairie dogs with for a short time but too much recoil and blast
I have a sporter chambered in 25-308 also wonderful on whitetail but still think there are better choices

It all depends on what you want to do with it. Lots of us shoot deer & antelope with .22 CF's and at least one poster here shoots Jack rabbits with a .458.

i have shot a deer and a antelope with a 17 Remington , 22 mag. and a 22 Hornet shot deer for meat. but when i hunt for bigger Whitetail and Mule deer Bucks i use a 257 Weatherby mag mostly but this year i will be using a 257 Roberts and a 30-06 for bigger bucks mostly. i have shot squirrels , crows and rabbits with my 30-06 too.

I killed a lot of groundhogs with my M700 bull barreled 25-06 with 6-24X scope. I’d never lug that thing around as a big game (deer) rifle. It made a hell of a mess on those varmints with the original 100gr ballistic tips.

For me a big game rifle starts at .277. No offense to the 0.264 guys.

No offense taken here, as I have graduated away from the 6.5 mm Grendel to the 6mm ARC. The biggest game I am after may be a 300 ish LB midwest Whitetail or a Mule Deer.

Chambering/bore size doesn't matter for [bleep].

Bullet construction though does, and makes all the distinction one would need.

T
This I suppose is the line of thought I was thinking on. Ill feel better about a 6x45 with a 85 grain Nosler partition for whitetail deer large & small, over a 30-06 shooting rubber bullets or a 110 grain V-Max.

In the zone between the far extremes, where chamberings can and will fill both roles, bullet manufacturers do a pretty fair job stating the intended purpose of any particular bullet.

Some bullets do well with both. The 6mm 85 grain TSX (not tipped), for example, has fed four 243's here and has done a stellar job with more whitetails than I care to count, turkey, coyote, and groundhogs. Excellent dual purpose bullet. One day when I get around to building one I'll find out how it does launched from an ultra featherweight 6x45.

I've shot plenty of Fallow deer with a 243 and a Sierra 85gn HPBT. The whole discussion often involves what you have in your hand when a target of opportunity Pops up. So if you're out after varmints and deer wanders into your arc of fire, it would be nice to know the bullet in your varmint rifle was up to the job. If it's a 220 Swift shooting a 40gn bullet at over 4,000fps, not a good idea. But the same rifle with a decent 55gn bullet, you may be tempted.

The only place I hear the term”big game” is here or in other media stories.
Most people I hunt with just take up the gun they believe will get the job done, noting the critter, conditions, and expected shot.
Where I hunt this time of year the cow elk season is going and a .223 or .243 are the gun of choice. Either one placed behind the eye means zero waste and good eating. During bull season of course it’s different. The shots or expected to be as tight.
The same light calibers carry easy and works very well on coyotes, Fox, badgers, cats, and also dispatch busted up horses and cows.

The only serious breakdown of caliber designation for me is game versus dangerous game/stopping power. Some places a 30-30 or 35 Marlin is an excellent choice for deer in the bush, while 1/2 mile down the road a guy can stretch out a 25.06 or similar over a large clear cut or ag area.

Dangerous game, game, rimfire, and handgun hunting. Gun up accordingly.

Osky

young lady in our deer hunting group used my 220 Swift Ruger #1 with my handloads bullet used was a Nosler Partition 60 gr. at around 3500 - 3600 FPS this little bullet worked great.

^This!

^And This!!

Yup. My varmint rig is usually whatever I have when I see a varmint.
If I had to pick, 243 win. 8 twist. All day.

Good choice

Osky

I would tend to think that any rifle chambered for the 14's, 17's, 19's or 20 cal. could be labeled as varmint rifles.

ya!

GWB

Well, when I originally brought up this subject the 6mm ARC as a deer cartridge & or duel purpose chambering with deer & coyotes in mind. No doubt some folks for whatever reason find a 6mm caliber insufficient for that task. If some find a 6mm caliber insufficient, I can only question how the cartridge is being implemented. Been a favored caliber for me for going on 40 plus years now with whitetail deer being my primary focus.

Select good hunting bullets; Make good shots at reasonable distances & reliable terminal results, are realised.

WE probably didn't come up with those terms. I would bet it's just another clever marketing ploy by the gun & ammo companies to sell more product.

Touching on this thread, for the first time in a while... been back home on the east coast for 6 or so weeks.

I took a deer this season with a 6 x 45, shooting a 95 grain Ballistic Tip, with 24 grains of powder, in a 1 in 7 twist barrel.

so would this be considered a varmint cartridge? or a deer cartridge? The deer was bang flop, but it was shot at 50 yds or less. Heart shot...

a few age rats shot with it, using a 70 grain TNT, or a 75 grain HP, blew those things apart and provided red mist, a lot better than the same cartridge in 22 caliber.

so once again, a caliber that either one.. depending on how you load it and what you are shooting with it.

slow that vmax or a ballistic tip of that weight in an 06, down to say 2500 to 2600 fps MV. You'd be surprised how lethal they can be. have your MV in the speed a particular bullet functions in, and you'd be surprised what they can do..

Each bullet style has a window it functions best in...

At 100 yds, a 100 grain partition out of a 260 can pass thru a blacktail, before it opens up with an MV or 3300 fps MV.

Yet take a 90 grain Varmageddon bullet, out of a 260 with an MV of 2500 fps or so, at a 100 yds, and in the vitals, it will drop it like a sack of potatoes.

Ya learn alot about stuff like this, working with 12 and 13 yr old Boy Scouts, with their first rifle or their first hunt.

a 90 grain VG Nosler works real well for deer out of a 6.5 Grendel and its speeds. At least on blacktails.

No expanding bullet passes through an animal before it has time to expand. That isn’t how hydraulics work.

You couldn’t be wronger.


All this “shoot it with a rifle, it becomes what you shot with it” is still wrong. Killing a grizzly bear with a 22 makes 22 a big game rifle, is a crock. Certainly you can kill big game with a varmint cartridge, but that doesn’t change the cartridge, or its intended purpose.

The Campfire is full of people singing the virtues of a 223, fast twist and heavy bullets has become a big game cartridge, when it is still a varmint cartridge that has been modified and used to kill big game.

Arguing the use of a certain cartridge does not change what it is, it just describes what has been done with that cartridge…

SchitSmell,

You are an Amazingly CLUELESS Fhuqk and a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit to boot. Hint.



Bless your heart for trying so hard.

Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING1............

Actually, the 223 is a military cartridge known by another name. Are people small or big game?

These 223 arguments always deteriorate to stupid, It doesn't take too much to kill a man if you don't care how humane you do it, just ask the boys in Chicago.

It doesn’t take much to kill an animal either. Put a 2” hole through his lungs and nothing will go far. Contrary to what Remington advertised a cartridge as back in the 60’s there are projectiles that can be and are loaded in 22 caliber cartridges that are fully capable of penetrating big game animals and leaving a substantial wound channel through their vital organs.

No animal can live with its heart/lung area scrambled. No animal knows or cares what cartridge did the scrambling. Starting diameter is probably the least important aspect of bullet performance.

Pretty much my contention all along. A .223 will put a hole in a woodchuck you can stick your fist into. Put that same hole in the vitals of a deer and presto! You have venison.

I agree with you guys. The Tennessee Wildlife Resource Agency sees it differently, however.

That ^ ^ ^ ^ right ^ ^ ^ ^ there

I'm not bad-mouthing your 223, the use of it on deer has been going on for years. I was referring to this;

Actually, the 5.56 was designed to wound people. The Geneva convention outlines the rules of war to include the act of wounding, rather than killing the enemy…

I’ll throw my two cents in:
From what I’ve read by Elmer Keith, the construction of bullets available then was poor by today’s standards. Or even a couple decades later. If going after bigger game, then get a larger diameter bullet. 333 OKH etc.
When the 244 came out Remington engineers pretty much seemed to consider that the cartridge was primarily a varmint cartridge. Then the 243 came out and it was considered by many as a better dual purpose cartridge that is varmint and deer.

The belief that a hunter has to go up in caliber to hunt bigger game is not a nearly as common a belief. In my opinion, the big change came in bullet construction. When I was young the best bullet, in my opinion was the partition, but 6.5 mm was the smallest diameter partition.

As I recall, bullet selection for the 6mm’s and the 25 calibers were not that great in the 50’s and 60’s. My ability to buy and test lots of different bullets was hampered by lack of $’s and hunting opportunities. I suppose Winchester and Remington bullets were ok. I couldn't often afford factory ammo though. Most of my deer hunting was with a 03 30-06.

Today, again in my opinion, you can get good performance without having to do what Elmer did. Good penetration and expansion is common even in smaller diameter jacketed bullets.

I still consider the 6mm as a dual purpose varmint/deer cartridge. It’s one of my favorite pronghorn and coyote cartridges - the other would be the 25-06.

I also consider most 22 caliber cartridges as varmint cartridges that’ll do in a pinch for small deer.

Well you have convinced me. All of my guns are Multi-purpose guns.

MaMa Cass killed herself with a ham sandwich. So a 22 should be able to work.

What no one has mentioned, unless I missed it, is the volume of shooting.
If you`ve shot Rockchucks in the mountains, load some 110 HP in your 270 at about 3300 fps, and see them bounce...the 243 with a 55 grn SP at close to 4k will really take them apart, but would I sit at a bench or prone with bi-pod and shoot 50-100 rounds,or 200 rounds at P.D. in a day with either? Not unless I wanted to change out my barrel on either after a couple of days.

Well all depends on what you think is "big" game. Our deer are about 100-110 average. A German Shepard weighs more and is more dangerous, as are the feral pit bulls that are throw outs off dirt roads and pack up. I carry a 6mm Varmint AR 18" on my line cart, for riding fence. I can reach out and touch them with 80s at 3k. For hogs I bring the 358 AR 16" to the engagement with 200s at 2.5k..Bear around here are way less dangerous than a big hog. We have some sizable hogs here, in the 5-600 pound range. The very first one I shot weighed 550 pounds, processed meat weighed 275 pounds and they dress at 50%. Big hogs get the 45-70 in the Mauser 300 at 2.7k. So, it all depends. When I shoot something, I intend for it to stay shot.