Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 375 H&H vs 416 Rem

I have 350 grain spear loaded to 2757 FPS and 350 grain TSX loaded to 2715 FPS (both loads are with PP 2000MR) I'm not sure the 375 H&H can shoot flatter than that. My 416 is an Interarms Whitworth that is stocked perfectly for me and is very shootable for me.

I also own a Whitworth in 375 H&H and can't see where the 375 H&H can equal the the 416 for any purpose.

I have loaded the 300 grain Hammer bullet to 3000 FPS and the 375 can push a 250 grain to the same speed.

In my opinion for a 1 gun Safari the 416 is head and shoulders the better choice.

You “may” be right, especially if that “one gun safari” is in Africa…..my “ one gun Safari” I here in NA.

Plus I cheat a little bit….my .375 will be pushing 270 LRX’s a bit over 3K mv, if my load development comes to fruition! That should make it a pretty good “all around” performer even if I have to stretch it out to around 600 yards! I suspect that, while the .416 REM is a darn good cartridge……it may come up a bit short in that aspect! memtb

One of the interesting things about this conversation is that many tend to ignore the long record of the .375 as a dangerous-game round. There's plenty of information out there, from professionals who USED it as their primary round, either for commercial hunting or back-up on dangerous game--even long before we had so many wonder-bullets.

Among those sources I would list the books by African PHs and sometimes market hunters. The older ones would include John Taylor's African Rifles & Cartridges, and Harry Manner's Kambaku. Manners hunted both commercially for ivory and meat for decades before becoming a PH later in life, using a Winchester Model 70 with Winchester factory solids for buffalo, rhino and elephant--and of course a lot of other game.

He preferred the then Winchester solid--with a gilding metal jacket--to "softs" because it tended to expand some, which some hunters think is a sin, especially since monolithic flat-noses appeared. Manners found it penetrated and expanded more reliably than existing "softs" back then.

I also heard this same opinion on my first African safari 30 years ago, from a long-time "control" hunter and PH born and raised in what was then Rhodesia, who killed hundreds of big animals (mostly buffalo, but not all) with Winchester's gilding-metal solids. He called them "wizard," due to their combination of expansion and penetration.

There are also more contemporary writers, such as Finn Aagaard, who not only used his Winchester M70 .375 for personal buffalo hunting, but as back-up on buffalo hunts--or loaned it to clients. He never found it to fail--and his widow Berit used it to take both Cape and water buffalo with no problems while hunting in Africa and Australia with her second husband, the late Bill Pace. And Berit's success came with slightly loaded-down 300-grain handloads that Bill put together, at around 2400 fps.

The PH I've hunted with most, the now-retired Kevin Thomas (who was also born and raised in Rhodesia, and did a lot of buffalo culling back then) is a .375 fan as well. His book There's Something About Buffalo contains not only chapters by him on the subject of buffalo rifles, but some of his contemporary PHs as well. None of them bad-mouth the .375 H&H.

Then there's Craig Boddington, who's probably taken more Cape buffalo than any American gun writer. In one of his Safari Rifle books, Craig says he considers it "marginal" for buffalo--but on the "right" side of the margin. He's killed bulls cleanly with the 300-grain Sierra GameKing--which isn't his top choice as a buffalo bullet, but worked very well for broadside shots in herds, killing quickly but not exiting and possibly wounding another buffalo.

I would bet that between all those guys they have far more experience with the .375 on dangerous game than Jim Shockey and his buddy. I also know Jim, and years ago hunted with him in his black bear camp at the northern end of Vancouver Island. He obviously has plenty of hunting experience--but I sincerely doubt he and his associate have nearly the experience with the .375 H&H on dangerous game as the hunters listed above.

Don't ya reckon the old .375 H&H has killed more DG over the years (with a 76 yr. head start) than the .416 Rem. The .416 Rigby was introduced in 1911 and for sure has whacked it's share.

I don't hunt DG, but reload DG ammo for one bud, the other loads his own. Those two like and use .416's, which seem to be getting more and more popular for DG.

I have a .375 H&H. Seems the 250 TTSX has some ballistic advantage over the more popular 270 gr. TSX. But, the 270 TSX has such a good track record over the years, guess it's hard to displace.

Quoting a sage from the cold North, "It's the boolet more than the head stamp".

One bud killed a nice buff in Zim with his .416 Rigby Ruger Safari Magnum. One 400 gr. TSX did the trick but the buff traveled a good ways. As I've posted before, his PH thought that gun was too heavy, carried a well worn PF M-70 in .416 Rem. Not as cool as the RSM, but at least to him, more practical.

Another bud killed a buff in S.A. with his PF M-70 .416 Rem. His PH recommended the 400 gr. SAF, so that's what he used, He hit that buff three times (all fatal hits), piled him up in sight before he could run very far. So, guess the old PF M-70, in the right hands, can be cycled pretty slick and fast.

People get fixated on a bullet that works, which I understand. But, the Loony in me, I'd be looking at some of the newer bullets, like Cutting Edge and Hammer, just to see how they'd work. Not sure I wouldn't take my .375 H&H, loaded right. To me the .416 Rem isn't harder to shoot than the .375 H&H. They both kick. I use a standing bench, which helps.

I kinda like the idea it's the "boolet" more than the head stamp. Of course, how well the shooter performs is a key factor.

DF

My 416 Rem M70 was purpose built years ago for at least one buffalo hunt. It has done that well and will likely do it again. My SS 375 H&H M70 was purpose bought for at least one brown bear hunt. It has done that though unsuccessfully. It will try again in Alaska next year.

If bigger didn't have some advantage then Phil Shoemaker wouldn't use a 458 win mag

jwp,

Phil uses his .458 as a "stopper" when following up brown bears wounded by clients. That's a different thing than hunting brown bears.

He willingly guides brown bear hunters who use FAR lighter cartridges, as long as they use deep-penetrating bullets, including the .270 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield. That's because he's guided too many brown bear hunters who are "over-gunned," or over-excitable, so don't put the bullet in the right place.

He does NOT advise his clients to bring a .458.

I.understand that. Which validates my point " bigger hits harder" I also realize that Cape Buffalo have been and still can be taken with small bore rifles like the 7 mauser as well as others

Jwp,

Phil has posted and published magazine articles about all this many times--including that he firmly believes bullet placement is the major factor in "killing power."

He does NOT use his .458 exclusively as back-up on brown bears, as he's a long-time experimenter. Over the decades he's used a number of cartridges from the .30-06 to .505 Gibbs. His definition of a "stopping" round is not a cartridge that immediately drops charging animals, all the time, but one that even if it doesn't immediately kill them right there, stuns them enough to shoot again before they "recover." Which is why he decided the .505 was too much--he couldn't recover from the recoil quickly enough to shoot temporarily stopped bears before the bears started coming again. Having fired a .505 myself I can understand why. (Oh, and he's also killed a charging, mature brown bear with a 9mm handgun--partly because he could keep shooting it very quickly.)

But this discussion is about the .375 H&H and .416 Remington. Of course the .416 "hits harder" though I am also convinced that more recoil and the louder sound of the bullet hitting game have as much to do with how hunters perceive "hitting harder" as how the animal reacts.

But it also hits hunters harder--which is why so many of the PHs I know firmly believe in the .375 H&H for their clients: It kills buffalo very well if the bullet land in the right place, which in their experience happens more often with the .375 than harder-kicking cartridges. And many of them use the .375 as a back-up rifle themselves, partly because they can shoot repeat shots faster and more accurately if needed.

I realize all of this as I have read it from Phil.

When I had hopes to go to Africa I wanted to take my 2 pre 64s along. One in .300 H&H for general game and the other in .375 H&H for Cape Buffalo. It just surprised me that Shockey had such a low opinion of the .375. What is also interesting is Shockey used muzzleloaders on the same animals without vocal complaint that he condemns the .375 for.

Since I will never be able to match the hunting experiences of Boddington, Barsness and Shockey I need to rely on their expertise to pick and choose what to use.

jwp475, I don’t think that everyone is “ganging-up” against the .416…..it’s a great cartridge!

However, I and apparently many others, see the .375 H&H as a bit more flexible as an “all around”, for the average hunter/shooter ….especially those of average means that do not do not handload! memtb

Through many hunts and switching sticks with others I've learned what my limits are - .400J @ ~2,100 and the .404J @ ~2,200, both weighing 10 - 10.5 lbs all up. Really just as easy to hunt with as the H&H IMHO. Just love those two cartridges. The problem is those two are pretty much NOT off-the-rack rifles - one in a double and the other a turnbolt.

I went down the rabbit hole one time with a builder costing out a .404J build and what I learned was I could have one hell of a good time somewhere in Africa for the price of that rifle.

Of course, there's always the chance my son could decide to quit college...

I am fully aware that the 375 H&H has and still can take buffalo effectively. I am also aware that buffalo can be taken cleanly with smaller bore rifles and even handguns.

My statement that the 416 hits harder isn't subjective it is, fact. I have no idea why anyone wants to argue that point
The 458 hits harder than a 416

Jwp,

Did you read this in my post?--"Of course the .416 'hits harder'..."

But in my experience that doesn't mean it always kills buffalo any quicker than the .375 H&H, especially with typical heart-lung shots. Which is also my experience with a lot of smaller cartridges on big game smaller than buffalo.

I didn't say it kills quicker with heart and lung shots as I know it doesn't.
I've taken Asian Buffalo and Bison with a revolver. I know that a 475 or 500 hits harder than a 44 and I've seen them taken with 475, 500 and 44

Puddle,

Another fine round in the class of the .404 Jeffery is the .450/.400 Nitro Express, which also recoils similarly to the .375. In fact I almost bought a nice double in .450/.400 maybe 15 years ago, after I'd tried it out--but came to the same conclusion: I could go on another safari for that kind of money. Which is what I did....

Before I began hunting buffalo I was convinced that one of the 416’s was needed. Then I started shootings them with a 375 H&H. Hit in the right place a buffalo usually runs and then keels over, kaput. They run away because they are usually found in the presence of other buffaloes which always run away upon hearing a shot.

Now, after shooting many buffalo I have concluded the 416’s (and bigger) are an obstacle to marksmanship. A well placed first shot is the most important thing.

Incidentally, in many of the tv shows I have watched, the hunters take pretty marginal first shots.

MD,
My friend.
The Campfire is filled with opinions that are not supported by any experience.
A closed mind can’t understand the importance of the phrase “I don’t know.”
R

Quote from OP!
I really have no need for a medium/big bore but just want one just to have it. Only real use outside of fun at the range would be elk and black bears.

I’m leaning towards either a 375 H&H or 416 Remington but open to other thoughts. Mainly just looking to see what others would choose and why.😙😉

jwp475, At the top of this post is a quote from the OP!

He was merely asking for opinions as to what and why! He didn’t ask which would hit harder! And, without reading through all of these posts, I suspect that “no one” suggested or stated that the .375 H&H will “hit harder”!

The OP also stated that it may be used for Black Bear and/or elk……putting down one of Africa’s Big Five wasn’t on the agenda!

So essentially, IMO…..your issues are unfounded! memtb