Quote from OP! I really have no need for a medium/big bore but just want one just to have it. Only real use outside of fun at the range would be elk and black bears.
I’m leaning towards either a 375 H&H or 416 Remington but open to other thoughts. Mainly just looking to see what others would choose and why.😙😉
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by memtb
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Jwp,
Phil has posted and published magazine articles about all this many times--including that he firmly believes bullet placement is the major factor in "killing power."
He does NOT use his .458 exclusively as back-up on brown bears, as he's a long-time experimenter. Over the decades he's used a number of cartridges from the .30-06 to .505 Gibbs. His definition of a "stopping" round is not a cartridge that immediately drops charging animals, all the time, but one that even if it doesn't immediately kill them right there, stuns them enough to shoot again before they "recover." Which is why he decided the .505 was too much--he couldn't recover from the recoil quickly enough to shoot temporarily stopped bears before the bears started coming again. Having fired a .505 myself I can understand why. (Oh, and he's also killed a charging, mature brown bear with a 9mm handgun--partly because he could keep shooting it very quickly.)
But this discussion is about the .375 H&H and .416 Remington. Of course the .416 "hits harder" though I am also convinced that more recoil and the louder sound of the bullet hitting game have as much to do with how hunters perceive "hitting harder" as how the animal reacts.
But it also hits hunters harder--which is why so many of the PHs I know firmly believe in the .375 H&H for their clients: It kills buffalo very well if the bullet land in the right place, which in their experience happens more often with the .375 than harder-kicking cartridges. And many of them use the .375 as a back-up rifle themselves, partly because they can shoot repeat shots faster and more accurately if needed.
I realize all of this as I have read it from Phil.
jwp475, I don’t think that everyone is “ganging-up” against the .416…..it’s a great cartridge!
However, I and apparently many others, see the .375 H&H as a bit more flexible as an “all around”, for the average hunter/shooter ….especially those of average means that do not do not handload! memtb
I am fully aware that the 375 H&H has and still can take buffalo effectively. I am also aware that buffalo can be taken cleanly with smaller bore rifles and even handguns.
My statement that the 416 hits harder isn't subjective it is, fact. I have no idea why anyone wants to argue that point The 458 hits harder than a 416
jwp475, At the top of this post is a quote from the OP!
He was merely asking for opinions as to what and why! He didn’t ask which would hit harder! And, without reading through all of these posts, I suspect that “no one” suggested or stated that the .375 H&H will “hit harder”!
The OP also stated that it may be used for Black Bear and/or elk……putting down one of Africa’s Big Five wasn’t on the agenda!
So essentially, IMO…..your issues are unfounded! memtb
I have a 375 H&H and find my 416 just as shootable, because it fits me very well. What issues do you think I have? What is it that make you and others think the 375 H&H is versatile?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I was fairly detailed in “my” reasoning in a prior post!
I will reiterate ….the .416 is a great cartridge, but I feel that the .375 H&H better answers the OP’s desires based “only” on the information given! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
I was fairly detailed in “my” reasoning in a prior post!
I will reiterate ….the .416 is a great cartridge, but I feel that the .375 H&H better answers the OP’s desires based “only” on the information given! memtb
I think the 416 fits the OP criteria just as well as a 375 H&H
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
"moose, I’d not use the solids but would fill my rifle only with these TSX expanding loads.
We were able to engineer this load to be full power +, but not to exceed factory (SAAMI) pressure limits. You’ll note that my test gun, which was made to my specs almost 30 years ago, only has a 20-inch barrel as I designed this rifle to be more of a guiding and handy take everywhere rifle than a hunting rifle. Depending on barrel internals, longer barrels will probably give higher velocities…….this is a good place to read my article on “Velocity Versus Barrel Length.”
Dangerous Game ammo is best designed to be lower pressure to ensure that unfavorable conditions (such as hiking in a rainstorm in AK and getting rainwater in your barrel, etc.) will not raise pressure enough to hinder the reliability of proper cartridge and rifle function. Cartridge pressure can be your enemy, so keep it low as possible without affecting velocity, which is all about proper powder and bullet selection."
Another fine round in the class of the .404 Jeffery is the .450/.400 Nitro Express, which also recoils similarly to the .375. In fact I almost bought a nice double in .450/.400 maybe 15 years ago, after I'd tried it out--but came to the same conclusion: I could go on another safari for that kind of money. Which is what I did....
Yea, I just got tired of saying ".450/.400 NE 3 inch" and just refer to it as the .400J (Jeffery). I got to use a Manton built .400J on a hunt and ended up wanting one of my own ever since.
It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
The .400 S. Jeffery was actually the first ever "Nitro Express" done in 1897 as a single-shot Farquharson a few months before Rigby got the .450 S. Rigby to survive proof in a set of double rifle barrels. Later renamed respectively the .450/.400 Nitro Express 3" and .450 Nitro Express 3.25". I think Rigby did the heavy lifting and Jeffery got a jump on him by industrial espionage.
Anyway, I first went to Africa with both a .375 H&H and a .416 Rigby. Could not split that baby so I came up with the .395/.375 H&H and .395/.416 Rigby 20-degree-shoulder, .395/.338 Lapua Magnum, .395/.375 Ruger, and .395/9.3x74mm, the latter known as the .400 Nitro Express Aboriginal, like the Purdey .400 Light Rifle Express that might have been an inspiration for Rigby and Jeffery. The .395/.416 Rigby was called the .395 Tatanka, and killed well in Africa, one shot on everything it was pointed at, up to zebra size, except one warthog gutshot in the brush requiring a finisher.
I tried using a caliber midway between .375 and .416, but I still could not split the baby. Actually all three performed about the same.
So I just moved on to the .458 Winchester Magnum with high-BC, monometal copper, 404-gr bullets at 2500 fps. And I shall never look back at the rat calibers.
Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary .458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
I will reiterate ….the .416 is a great cartridge, but I feel that the .375 H&H better answers the OP’s desires based “only” on the information given!
Originally Posted by jwp475
I think the 416 fits the OP criteria just as well as a 375 H&H
I think y'all are right: The OP should buy both.
Yep! Which is exactly what I did, more than once--along with a .416 Rigby, which when loaded to "traditional" pressures is the same basic thing as the .416 Remington. Though the Rigby can also be safely heated up to .416 Weatherby velocities.
But the .375 is versatile enough that I've used it both as the "heavy" and "light" rifle on safaris.
Another more obscure advantage of the .375 is that just about every PH has some spare ammo, usually left behind by clients. That's generally not true of the .416s, and in fact on one my early safaris the PH told a story about how a recent safari client had brought a .416 Remington--with one 20-round box of ammo. Exactly why he didn't say, but between hunting and checking the scope occasionally the guy ran out before the end of the safari. The closest store that had any was a 120-mile drive, one way--and when they got there the ammo cost more than twice as much a box as the guy had paid in the U.S. Plus he lost a day of hunting.
If he'd had a .375 the PH could have supplied plenty of ammo--partly because his main backup rifle was a .375 H&H.
Oh, and on that safari I brought a .375 as my only rifle--but had enough ammo.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I won’t argue one way or the other. On my recent trip to Zambia our PH’s loved the 375, and the 270 for plains game. However, they said most Americans bring 300’s for plains game, and I was shooting a 300wsm. We shot a .416 Rigby for buff, and youll never hear me say it won’t work. My first shot was broadside at about 100 yards, and the buff turned and ran. He layed down with 30 yards. I thought my 2nd shot was a cluster f&$k u til they skinned the buff. I couldn’t understand why I hit him so far back, until ai realized how much if a racking shot it was. The .416 is no joke. It drove a 400gr TSX midway through the stomach, way through the boiler. The big hole is from the bullet.
My Ed Brown LH 416 Rem should be here soon. Got a can coming as well. My options were limited and I thought I got a good deal. Lots of great info on this thread. Now to figure out ammo and see what my father has left over. He's got one as well. Figured if my boy wants to go DG hunting we could share the same ammo if he uses my dad's gun.
Based on what the OP described I'd say a .375 is more appropriate. It sounds like he's not planning on hunting in Africa and a .375 has more than enough power for anything in North America. In addition, although I've never shot a .416, most people who have say they recoil considerably more than a .375. The ballistic recoil calculators say the same thing.
I find my CZ 550 .375 H&H quite pleasant to shoot, which makes it easier to shoot accurately. And a .375 can shoot pretty flat with 250-270 grain bullets so it can be useful where shots run longer.
Based on what the OP described I'd say a .375 is more appropriate. It sounds like he's not planning on hunting in Africa and a .375 has more than enough power for anything in North America. In addition, although I've never shot a .416, most people who have say they recoil considerably more than a .375. The ballistic recoil calculators say the same thing.
I find my CZ 550 .375 H&H quite pleasant to shoot, which makes it easier to shoot accurately. And a .375 can shoot pretty flat with 250-270 grain bullets so it can be useful where shots run longer.
The .416 does kick more, but not a lot of difference if the .375 is shooting heavier bullets at full speed.
I use a standing bench for big boomers per Elmer’s advice. The .416 does jump such that you need to be holding onto it. But I didn’t find it objectionable, was able to shoot some good groups.
Those big guns seem to be pretty accurate generally.
Indeed I ended up with a stainless model 70 that is currently at Kampfelds getting bedded into a Bansner stock.
Somehow I also had a 1979 vintage ruger 458 WM follow me home. Not sure why I bought it but will play with it a while. Still thinking I want a 416 Rem just because.
Indeed I ended up with a stainless model 70 that is currently at Kampfelds getting bedded into a Bansner stock.
Somehow I also had a 1979 vintage ruger 458 WM follow me home. Not sure why I bought it but will play with it a while. Still thinking I want a 416 Rem just because.
Same here MA. Have a P64 375 in a Legend and a M70 Classic 458 and still have an itch for the 416 myself.
Indeed I ended up with a stainless model 70 that is currently at Kampfelds getting bedded into a Bansner stock.
Somehow I also had a 1979 vintage ruger 458 WM follow me home. Not sure why I bought it but will play with it a while. Still thinking I want a 416 Rem just because.
Same here MA. Have a P64 375 in a Legend and a M70 Classic 458 and still have an itch for the 416 myself.
I like the Legend. Here's a .404J I built on a 300 RUM, SS M-70 action. And, of course, never shoot the donor... I didn't.
D'Arcy is easy to work with. Some say magnum fill is the way to go. D'Arcy said std. fill would work with that round, but did suggest pins thru the stock.
I Steel Bedded it and D'Arcy was right.
To me, the .404J is an interesting round, but I'd go .416 Rem now, looking back on it. The .416 case will be easier to feed, you won't need a RUM action to accommodate the fatter .404J round.
For plinking and general hunting a 375 H&H is perfect. If you hike in areas with bear a 416 RM is entry level into stopping cartridges. In WA, 416 or heavier would be my choice.
