Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 375 H&H vs 416 Rem

I really have no need for a medium/big bore but just want one just to have it. Only real use outside of fun at the range would be elk and black bears.

I’m leaning towards either a 375 H&H or 416 Remington but open to other thoughts. Mainly just looking to see what others would choose and why.

In my opinion with mono metal bullets a 416 Remington with 350 grain bullets is as flat as the 375 with 270s and hits harder. The 416 all day over a 375

My vote goes for the 375 H&H. It is a true classic and goes back to 1912. You can use it on deer sized game with no issues. I have taken a lot of game in Africa with it and have also used it in the USA for mule deer, elk and black bear. I have also shot a few rabbits and spruce grouse with a solid for the pot. In my opinion everybody should own at least one 375 H&H in their lifetime.

I have owned two and it does nothing the 9.3x62 does with less fuss and bother.

I have and use for hunting a 9.3x62mm, .375 H&H, and a .400 Jeffrey #1.

The 9.3 M77 is 8.5 lbs all up, the H&H M70 is 9.5 lbs all up, and the #1 is 10.5 lbs all up. At those weights they are all sweethearts to carry & shoot in the field.

I pretty much stick with 300 gr. bullets with the 9.3, 350 gr. bullets with the H&H, and (obviously) 400 gr. bullets with the #1. However, I've been known to bring 'em all on PD shoots and will adjust bullet weights accordingly. Amongst the 3 I've taken black bear, elk, Cape Buffalo, and a bunch of plains game.

I acquired them over a span of almost 25 years because they are interesting cartridges. The 9.3 was bought last, and if I had a do-over, and with the acquired hindsight, the practical side of me would cart around the 9.3. With that cartridge I'd just go forth and slay big game around the world without a whole lot of fuss.

Agreed. I have a CZ 550 American in 9.3 and love it. But the OP didn't ask about the 9.3.

My vote goes to the H&H as it’s a bit more versatile! If all shots will be of short to moderate ranges, or large dangerous game is on the menu …..the the .416 would be my choice!

With a competent gunsmith and a few hundred bucks, the H&H can be very easily converted to the AI or Weatherby versions and transform the H&H into a pretty darn good long range (well 700 to 800 yard) cartridge! Brass is usually available, the fire forming is as easy as pulling the trigger, and modern high BC bullets will make it pretty formidable at longer ranges ….And it still works great at short range! What’s not to like?

I’m presently running Barnes 250 grain TTSX’s in my AI @ 3130 mv, while giving me sub 2” 3 shot groups @ 300 yards! I will be building a load this summer with the Barnes 270 grain LRX….hoping for an accurate 3000+ mv! My only hunting rifle since February of 1990! 😉 memtb

I vote 416. Can load for plains game and dangerous game.

A friend of mine did a trip to Africa and used the 416Rigby on plains game. He didn't get the opportunity for dangerous game but had the loads and set-up for the same rifle to do so. I think the 375 may be the legal minimum but the 416 gives a bit more confidence. American big game is not quite the same thing though.

I'm shooting the 350 grain Speer at 2757 FPS and the 350 grain TSX at 2715 FPS. This is like a 270ngrain 385 H&H with a heavier larger diameter bullet.

Yeah, that's nothing to sneeze at. I forget exactly what my mate used for plains game but think it was similar. He's also got 450gn loads intended for the dangerous game.

I've clocked my 375H&H 270gn loads at about 2,850ft/sec out of a 26" barrel (CZ550), BTW.

80 grains of CFE223 Federal 215 primer and 270 TSX give me 2806 FPS from my 375 H&H

If you can handle the recoil of a 375, you can handle a 416. Other than Nostalgia, I can't see anything a 375 does better than a 416. 416 has the same trajectory and will create larger wound channels with the same penetration.

This is the precise reason I have a .375 H&H. I simply wanted a classic caliber even if other rifles I owned were adequate for the hunting I was intending to do. I like the energy that medium/big bore rifles deliver & I think they're versatile for a variety of game when many people only consider them for DG situations. In some of the locations I hunt, I would prefer to use "too much gun" than to do "too much tracking".


I would choose the .375 H&H again for one reason that many people would consider stupid: The .375 H&H is a classic that's more than adequate for anything I will ever encounter and the .416 Remington is too "new". I will confess to letting a certain amount of nostalgia drive my caliber selections. If the choices had been .375 H&H vs .416 Rigby, then that would have given me pause as I would have had to consider whether I wanted a companion to my .275 Rigby which I really like hunting with. But I would never try to convince anyone else that my choices are superior ones. I buy what makes me happy and reasonable people could point out legitimate flaws in my selection process.


But unrelated tangents are one of the bonus features of being on the 'Fire. I love my 9.3x74r!

Buy both.

This is not your first post. C'mon man! I am the thread drift which invariably infects every topic on the 'fire. Just starting early!

No answer can be fully justifiable unless a book is written on it, and even then there must be a bunch of qualifiers! And then, each one who responds has their own preferences and opinions, even those who have never owned either!

But based solely on the OP's suggested impulse for choosing one or the other, I'd suggest the .375 H&H because, in my opinion, it is more versatile and perhaps easier to get along with than a .416 Rem or Rigby in recoil, weight and bullet selection. If a .416 Ruger was included in this discussion, then I might relent due to the handiness of a 20" barrel in tight quarters.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob

Do you see the 416 Ruger having legs longterm in the marketplace? Right now the 416RM is practically like an 06 in terms of general acceptance and availability.

No way is a 375 H&H more versatile than a 416 Remington loaded with 350 TSX at 2715 FPS. That is a flat shooting hard hitter

I have both (M70's) and chose the 416 for a mixed bag hunt in Zimbabwe. I used the 350 gr TSX on game from a serval to buffalo shooting from 50 yards (serval) to 250 yards (kudu). My PH carried a 416 Rigby. Once he saw that I could shoot the rifle he was happy that I brought the 416.

So⁸me obvious observations. I've e owned a couple 416Taylors, 375 H&H's, and 9.3x62 and x74's.
They are all devastating on deer and ground hogs. The bigger the case and the heavier and faster the bullet, the harder they kiss. The better the stock fits, the more pleasant the kiss. All shoot cast bullets well and can be a lot of fun at the range. I found that over time, I tended to shoot lighter recoiling loads more than full house.
416's with heavy loads can give you the jingles after about 20 rounds.
When you're looking, one will catch your eye and feel good in your hand, take it home. If you're not happy with it, send it down the road. There are lots of used guns out there and they are making new ones. The anticipation and search can be almost as much fun as buying.
Bfly

I’ve had one 375 H&H and still have a 375 H&H AI. I had a 416 Rigby and sold it when I realized I’m too old to Safari.

I like my 375H&H AI the best of the three, likely because the rifle fits me like a glove. The 416 gave me recoil headaches after about three rounds (Ruger 77). The 375 H&H I had, I think it was a Whitworth(??). The stock was evidently wrong and it went down the road before 20 rounds were fired. I’m afraid to say it hurt when I fired it.

My 375 H&H AI is a very nice pre-64. It’s recoil even with heavy loads is comfortable and I’ve shot tiny 5 shot groups with it. I’m sure that it’s capable for any game I’ll ever shoot. I suppose if I were to go to Africa and hunt hippo, elephant and cape, I’d look for something bigger, maybe the 416 Rem.

I think my 375 Whelen AI has it all over the 9.3x62.

If I were to buy a cartridge rifle in this category I’d be looking at stock fit and proper weight.

That might be your own experience, but is NOT the opinion of the PHs I've hunted with and know well. The majority would rather see a client show up with a .375 H&H than a .416--though some clients can handle a .416.

In fact, the PH I've hunted with most, now-retired Kevin Thomas, usually used a .375 to back up his buffalo clients. Kevin said he was frequently "seriously out-gunned" by his clients--but also ended up finishing off quite a few of their buffalo with his .375.

Kevin was not exactly inexperienced in killing Cape buffalo, having grown up in what was then Rhodesia, where his first job out of high school was as a "game ranger" who took tourists on walking tours in buffalo country. He killed his first charging buffalo not long after he started.

Later he also worked for one of the big Rhodesian cattle ranches, where one of his primary jobs was killing buffalo to make room for cattle. This was not done at night with head-shots, but by having them pushed by him by the ranch workers. I found this out when one evening around the campfire I asked Kevin what he considered the absolute minimum cartridge for Cape buffalo. He thought for a couple minutes, then said,
"The .30-06."

This was because he'd killed over 500 with the .30-06 and 180-grain Nosler Partitions, back when Partitions were lathe-turned had the "relief groove" around the partition. I then asked if he'd had any trouble with big bulls, especially on frontal shots. He said never.

But he knew how to shoot, and where to shoot 'em.

From what you stated in your initial post, you should get a 375. I think 375's have less recoil and are more pleasant to shoot. Will work great at the range and on bears/ elk.

I have owned 375's, 404's and both 416 Rem and Rigby.

Rigby gave me recoil headaches.
404 was fine, but went down the road. Did kill a buffalo with it.
375's were fine, shot some plains game and sold that one too.

All I have left is a Model 70 Classic in 416 Rem. It will stay, and go back to Africa if/when I go after buffalo again. 350gr TSX's at 2600 fps should work fine. I can shoot this rifle no problem. I have shot 50 plus rounds in day more than once. No recoil headaches, plus I really like the rifle. It fits me well and handles nice.

There is no doubt, to me, that my 416 thumps a fair bit more than my 375 with both being pretty light for chambering.

If I was buying/building one “just because” I would probably go with the .375 simply because there are cheap (relatively) bullet options. Pretty hard to find .416 bullets that can compete price wise with the 270 Hornady at well under $1 per and the Speer closer to $0.50.

That would be a tough choice. I like .375's & .416's. I have 375 H&Hs, 375 Rugers, 416 Remingtons, and 416 Rugers. I use the Ruger cartridges almost exclusively for moose.

I am a sure the 375's give less calculated recoil in the same weight rifles. They usually send the same to higher bc bullets a bit faster. They seem to send the death message to moose that are hit in the vitals pretty dang quickly. As has the 338 Winchester.

I think visually the 416 hits a bit harder on target.

I went for a long time using my 375s, even though having a 416s. Then I began using the 416 and have used it more the past few years. Though for my purposes either will work very well. I will say I do not regret having both calibers. Both are fun, on the range, the field, and reloading bench.

I'm a BIG fan of the 375 H&H...and of the 416 Rigby (fully admitting the Remington version is far more practical). This past week I was at out place in PA and did a bit of testing with the 375 loaded with 300gr TSXs and Frames as well as the Rigby with 350 TSXs.

I have a 12" plates at 100 & 200 yards and one at 300. With the 350 TSX I could do everything that the 375 did only with a lot more power. If when I ever return to Africa for Buffalo/PG, my "light" rifle will be the 416 with 350 TSXs and my "just because I can" Buff rifle will be my 450NE Verney.

It's physics, the 416 will have more recoil, and more energy and frontal area, hitting harder in target.

The question to me is, at what point is one worth the other?

Being as close as they are, it's not a clear choice, hence a fun discussion. FWIW, I have a 375, and always think about a 404 Jeff or a 416 Rigby, neither of which I need.

Hi JorgeI,
Some years ago, after good success with the .308 and .338, I decided to skip the .375Mag entirely and use the .405 Win and .45-90 Win for all large and dangerous game. This was very successful in the USA and in Africa. The 45-90 also shoots 45-70 well and that was also a benefit that kept things simple.

Since the .405 turned out to be plenty of punch for Cape Buffalo, it should also be OK for larger game.

I've had both the 416 Rem and 375 H&H. The 416 was a Remington 700 and a viscous recoiler for me. The 375 kicks but not so much due somewhat to weight. It's time for the 375 to go now since I likely will never hunt with it again and there's nobody coming along in the family that would want it. For Washington elk, the 375 was just fine though totally unnecessary since a 257AI killed an elk just about asa quickly.

Agree with .416 Rem.

I have a .375 H&H stainless classic cut to 21” and fluted. It has NECG irons, fiber optic front. It wears a Zeiss Victory 1.5-6x42 in QD rings.

I built a .404J on a .300 RUM M-70 stainless donor.

I worked up loads for good Bud’s .416 Rem M-70 that he killed a nice buff with.

Another bud killed a buff in Zim with his Ruger Safari Magnum .416 Rigby. PH said it was OK, just too heavy. He carried a PF M-70 .416 Rem.

Summary: My .404J went down the road, still have the .375. Bottom line, the winner, IMO, is the .416 Rem in a M-70.

DF

I am not sure of the balance/tipping point of one over the other. I do agree, the comparison can be a fun discussion.

For my use, I categorize my 375s as +338s and my 416s as -458s.

Jack O'Conner set a hook with the 416 Rigby, George Hoffman with the 416 Hoffman, Ross Seyfried and Phil Shoemaker with the 416 Remington. I resisted until Winchester came out with the 416 Remington in the M70 and that progressed into the 416 Ruger.

The 375 H&H bug was caught so long ago I don't recall the first written exposure. But this also led to the 375 Ruger.

Personally, I would grab a 416 for close quarters, larger animals with the potential to rearrange my body. Obviously the 375s have worked many times in those circumstances also.

For my moose hunting, I can flip a coin. My shots are under 250 yds and I like both. Two of my favorite rifles are 20" 375 & 416 Rugers.
To the nut cutting, I still prefer my 416 Ruger in the very limited visibility areas with grizzly/brown bear activity. I guess that is my mental tipping point. Though, I have not lost any sleep when with a 375 or 338. Not due to the cartridge choice anyways.

Pertaining to the original post:
General purpose cartridge for North American type game, between the 375's & 416's, my choice would be the 375 Ruger. The 250 & 270 grain bullets would be my choice. I like the Barnes 270 grain TSX & LRX.

Exactly. I had my Model 70 375HH rebarreled by Mark Penrod to 416Rem. Definitely hits buffalo harder. I would use this rifle for a one gun safari in a heartbeat.

My 416 Rem M70 is at Karl Feldkamp's shop (30 miles away) as I type. He will be fluting the barrel to help balance with the loss of eight oz when I swapped to the McM magnum fill stock from factory. Still sorting the hunt...

Come to think of it, another friend of mine had a Ruger Tropical model (is this correct?) in 416Remington. A lightist rifle but pleasantly easy to fire - good stock design maybe? A CZ550 in 416Rigby just pips the felt recoil compared with same rifle in 458WM but it may have been 450gn vs 400gn when I tried it.

What did you decide to get, MallardAddict?

Still shopping rifles

I've used 9.3X62, 9,3X74R, 375 H&H, 375 Wby, and 416 Rigby. The 416 Rem and Rigby are ballistic twins.

The 9.3s and 375s are thumpers, but the 416 reaches Hammer status. Imo, the 416 is a significant step up.

I had plans to hunt buffalo with Kevin, but 9/11 knocked that in the head. He and I corresponded a bit, and he wanted me to use a 12/12/9.3X74R Simson drilling I owned back then. It had already taken a buffalo in Tanzania.

In the late 1980s I had an acquaintance who had worked for Rhodesia, culling elephants. He had used a circa 1970 Mdl 70 in 30-06. The really remarkable thing was he is an American who had gone to Rhodesia on a lark and loved the place. Doug was one of the most remarkable shots I've seen, especially with open sights. He sold me the Mdl 70, which I sold a few years later, having no use for a sixth '06.

500 buffalo... wow! Voice of experience for sure.

The more I use the good ol' 30-06, the more I like it. However I've had so doggone much fun loading for, shooting, and hunting with that 375 you used to own... what a great rifle & cartridge. Critters killed with the 375 aren't any deader than the ones taken with the 30-06, but it is fun using that bigger cartridge.

Regards, Guy

Both have there place for sure but obviously the .416 is a much better choice if having to be used as a stopper. As long as recoil isn’t a major issue the .416 gets my vote as a do all. I took my .416 Rigby to Zambia last October and used it from impala to buff. There is no such thing as too much gun.

Guy,

Glad you're still enjoying the No. 1 .375!

Probably have told you this before, but the one buffalo I shot with it was a big Botswana bull at around 65-70 yards, and the bullet the 300-grain Fail Safe at 2650 fps. It exited, leaving a hole the size of my fist--and we also found one "petal" on the edge of the hole.

Also used that rifle on "plains game" from impala to kudu on the same safari, though with 300-grain Nosler Partitions, which also worked just fine. Also used it on my first cull hunt in South Africa a year earlier, partly to "field" other bullets. But our group could also take "trophy" animals if we paid the standard fee--and took my biggest gemsbok bull, in both horn and body size. It was a very lucky rifle (I believe in them!) and it seems to have worked the same way for you.

Best,
John

Seems to me this is maybe more of a question about the shopper (buyer) than it is about a cartridge or rifle.

Historic/nostalgia oriented? 9.3x62 Mauser, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, maybe .404 Jeffery...

Modern and/or efficiency oriented? .375 Ruger, .416 Ruger, maybe .416 Remington...

And then there's recoil tolerance and carrying issues. Light rifle for carrying, not so great for recoil... and vice versa.

And then there's the rifle itself. Some may be attracted to an historic (or even modern) M70, but there are boatloads of actions out there with varying pros and cons.

Elk and black bears don't really need all that much, although they can make a good excuse to shop on heavier rifles.

For a "what others would choose" answer, especially for non-horse elk hunts (as we did), I'd go with a lightweight rifle chambered for .264 or above. Or even .25, maybe. That probably doesn't help, though... and what I actually carried at the time was a .338 or a .348... which probably also doesn't help much...

-Chris

Have a couple of hunting friends that go Buff hunting in Africa a couple of times, every year. They started with 375s and switched to the 416s after the first trip, been using the 416s evr since. So I asked or PH in RSA what he thought about the two cartridges in comparison. He said if you can hold your fire or crawl up, to get close enough, then place the shot exactly, the 375 is effective enough.
Later over a cold libation, I asked if he meant to stick the muzzle in their ear, he said, exactly.

If you want to try that on a big Buff, I will watch.

This thread has become a contest, or perhaps a comparison, over which of the two is "better" for African DG, which I don't think was the original intention by the OP. Limited to African DG, perhaps the .416 IS technically the better choice, but for the rest of the world for a one-rifle safari? I seriously doubt it! If I were going to Alaska for a big brownie or moose, if I already had a .375 H&H I wouldn't go out and buy a .416 Whatever for more assurance.... If I wanted to use a .416 out of curiosity, and didn't care about the wasted $$$, sure, why not? But for better results? That's nonsense! Perhaps for a guide who may need to do some nasty followups, I'd not disagree, but surely the .375 H&H under all circumstances has established a stirling reputation in Alaska as well as the rest of the world. Dead is dead!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Always good to hear one PH's opinion--which in my experience, and those of the several PH's I've hunted with is BS.

Several of the PHs I've hunted with think the .375 is plenty--and with chest shots, not "ear" shots. There's also a long list of PH's who've spent their entire career using the .375 as their back-up rifle for buffalo, and long before today's list of "premium" bullets.

But whatever you (or he) wants to believe....

Just watched Jim Shockey's Shock Therapy show. He and another fellow who worked for Jim said they didn't like the .375 H&H for big dangerous game like buffalo. You could see and hear the disgust coming from them when talking about this cartridge. This is the direct opposite of what people like Boddington and Mule Deer and others have said. It is interesting how people's experiences are different.

To each his own!

I'm in the same situation of O/P Mallard re "need for either 375 or 416 as 'not'. Also here, a closet 'Bambi hugger'. But I've owned both a eighties era Sako 375 in full stock @ 20" Barrel and a Win 70 416 Classic about '94 vintage. Both rifles unpleasant recoil though the hearing protectors definitely go to the Sako. I don't handload but for decades I did pay attention to ammo availability and cost. Nowadays ammo is an "investment" and last time I checked the .375 was a bit less expensive and considerably more available. Can't say, Pandemic era plus, but in all the info/details I don't see much mention of either factor which is significant for many folks with these heavy chamberings. In a world today of high & unpredictably higher inflation, the kind of range/plinking time I used to do, 10 rounds downrange at $200-$400+ dollars, a deterrence and to extent possible a single 'buck a round dollar advantage, something to which I'd pay attention. Add that in my heyday collecting/shooting era, reloading dies & supplies for scores of different chamberings also wasn't worth while!
Just my take as strongly paying attention to fellow member here, perhaps not paying close attention to ballistics, etc.
Just my take!
Best!
John

I’m a pretty dim bulb, but I have no idea what point you are making.

When watching TV personalities dump on the 'ol H&H I'm thinking "cool, that means more 300 grain A-Frames for me..."

Sort of like what the ‘bs’ one reads such as: “What are the ten best cartridges for deer hunting?” — “Opinions are like arse-holes. Everyone has got one.”
I won’t agree with most on what’s the ten best cartridges for deer hunting. Certainly not if I’m discussing these cartridges with someone who hunts in the swamps or the thick woods or possibly with the hunters that only hunt the mountains.

I’d like to have a 416 Remington, I’d probably put a suppressor on it. But truth be told, I’d mostly just shoot hard cast bullets in it.
I have a 375 Whelen AI and a 375 H&H AI so I guess a 375 H&H fits in between those two. My future holds less need for the 416 than the 375. Truth be told every year the need for a 375 is less, but the want might be permanent.
If I were protecting clients who were hunting elephants my pick might likely be in favor of a 416..

“Opinions are like arse-holes, everyone has one!”

Also, they may likely have a reason for their opinion.

One thing I have noticed since hunting/magazines have declined in numbers and circulation, and videos/TV show/YouTube have increased is that there's more schidt-stirring. Now, magazines used to run some SS articles, to get more "eyes on the page" (as the term used to be back then), but SS stuff tends to have quicker results these days.

Though not always, depending on who watches the stuff.....

Yes, but Shockey has done a lot of hunting and has received high praise from people on this site. I love my .375 for it accuracy alone since I have yet to shoot anything with it.

One plainsgame hunting trip I decided to have some fun and brought 2 rifles, both launching A-Frames. One a .30-06 and the other the H&H. I think it was 180 grain vs. 270 grain IIRC...

Since both were the same basic action with the same trigger pull and safety and scope setup I would simply switch off between them each day. Pretty hard to screw up taking the wrong ammo between an '06 and the H&H. After 10 days or so it turns out I shot all the big stuff with the '06 and all the small stuff with the H&H. Just luck of the draw each day...

Something that I failed to mention earlier …..I use the H&H or a variation thereof for all of my hunting in NA. I believe that the .375 H&H will make a better “all around” than the .416! JMO memtb

What was the quote from our esteemed resident PH Mr. JJ Hack..........................The 375 is the most effective cartridge for the investment in recoil you will find. or something close to that. YMMV

How is the 375 H&H a better all round than the 416 Remington?

Lets start with a 210 gr X at 3000 fps, that shoots as flat as a 180 06'.

I’ll speak in generals here…..H&H develops recoil that most anyone (unless they have physical issues) can easily handle, the .375’s are also slightly heavier helping mitigate felt recoil, ammunition is a bit more available and a bit less expensive, and the H&H seems (at least to me) to be a bit more practical for everyday use on small (Whitetails, Pronghorns, ect.) game up to and through dangerous big game, and lastly…..the 375 H&H shoots slightly flatter than the .416 REM with a 350 grain bullet.

You can go lighter than 350 grains with the 416 and increase velocity whereby flattening the trajectory……but, that can be always done with the H&H as well! 🤔😉 memtb

I have 350 grain spear loaded to 2757 FPS and 350 grain TSX loaded to 2715 FPS (both loads are with PP 2000MR) I'm not sure the 375 H&H can shoot flatter than that. My 416 is an Interarms Whitworth that is stocked perfectly for me and is very shootable for me.

I also own a Whitworth in 375 H&H and can't see where the 375 H&H can equal the the 416 for any purpose.

I have loaded the 300 grain Hammer bullet to 3000 FPS and the 375 can push a 250 grain to the same speed.

In my opinion for a 1 gun Safari the 416 is head and shoulders the better choice.

You “may” be right, especially if that “one gun safari” is in Africa…..my “ one gun Safari” I here in NA.

Plus I cheat a little bit….my .375 will be pushing 270 LRX’s a bit over 3K mv, if my load development comes to fruition! That should make it a pretty good “all around” performer even if I have to stretch it out to around 600 yards! I suspect that, while the .416 REM is a darn good cartridge……it may come up a bit short in that aspect! memtb

One of the interesting things about this conversation is that many tend to ignore the long record of the .375 as a dangerous-game round. There's plenty of information out there, from professionals who USED it as their primary round, either for commercial hunting or back-up on dangerous game--even long before we had so many wonder-bullets.

Among those sources I would list the books by African PHs and sometimes market hunters. The older ones would include John Taylor's African Rifles & Cartridges, and Harry Manner's Kambaku. Manners hunted both commercially for ivory and meat for decades before becoming a PH later in life, using a Winchester Model 70 with Winchester factory solids for buffalo, rhino and elephant--and of course a lot of other game.

He preferred the then Winchester solid--with a gilding metal jacket--to "softs" because it tended to expand some, which some hunters think is a sin, especially since monolithic flat-noses appeared. Manners found it penetrated and expanded more reliably than existing "softs" back then.

I also heard this same opinion on my first African safari 30 years ago, from a long-time "control" hunter and PH born and raised in what was then Rhodesia, who killed hundreds of big animals (mostly buffalo, but not all) with Winchester's gilding-metal solids. He called them "wizard," due to their combination of expansion and penetration.

There are also more contemporary writers, such as Finn Aagaard, who not only used his Winchester M70 .375 for personal buffalo hunting, but as back-up on buffalo hunts--or loaned it to clients. He never found it to fail--and his widow Berit used it to take both Cape and water buffalo with no problems while hunting in Africa and Australia with her second husband, the late Bill Pace. And Berit's success came with slightly loaded-down 300-grain handloads that Bill put together, at around 2400 fps.

The PH I've hunted with most, the now-retired Kevin Thomas (who was also born and raised in Rhodesia, and did a lot of buffalo culling back then) is a .375 fan as well. His book There's Something About Buffalo contains not only chapters by him on the subject of buffalo rifles, but some of his contemporary PHs as well. None of them bad-mouth the .375 H&H.

Then there's Craig Boddington, who's probably taken more Cape buffalo than any American gun writer. In one of his Safari Rifle books, Craig says he considers it "marginal" for buffalo--but on the "right" side of the margin. He's killed bulls cleanly with the 300-grain Sierra GameKing--which isn't his top choice as a buffalo bullet, but worked very well for broadside shots in herds, killing quickly but not exiting and possibly wounding another buffalo.

I would bet that between all those guys they have far more experience with the .375 on dangerous game than Jim Shockey and his buddy. I also know Jim, and years ago hunted with him in his black bear camp at the northern end of Vancouver Island. He obviously has plenty of hunting experience--but I sincerely doubt he and his associate have nearly the experience with the .375 H&H on dangerous game as the hunters listed above.

Don't ya reckon the old .375 H&H has killed more DG over the years (with a 76 yr. head start) than the .416 Rem. The .416 Rigby was introduced in 1911 and for sure has whacked it's share.

I don't hunt DG, but reload DG ammo for one bud, the other loads his own. Those two like and use .416's, which seem to be getting more and more popular for DG.

I have a .375 H&H. Seems the 250 TTSX has some ballistic advantage over the more popular 270 gr. TSX. But, the 270 TSX has such a good track record over the years, guess it's hard to displace.

Quoting a sage from the cold North, "It's the boolet more than the head stamp".

One bud killed a nice buff in Zim with his .416 Rigby Ruger Safari Magnum. One 400 gr. TSX did the trick but the buff traveled a good ways. As I've posted before, his PH thought that gun was too heavy, carried a well worn PF M-70 in .416 Rem. Not as cool as the RSM, but at least to him, more practical.

Another bud killed a buff in S.A. with his PF M-70 .416 Rem. His PH recommended the 400 gr. SAF, so that's what he used, He hit that buff three times (all fatal hits), piled him up in sight before he could run very far. So, guess the old PF M-70, in the right hands, can be cycled pretty slick and fast.

People get fixated on a bullet that works, which I understand. But, the Loony in me, I'd be looking at some of the newer bullets, like Cutting Edge and Hammer, just to see how they'd work. Not sure I wouldn't take my .375 H&H, loaded right. To me the .416 Rem isn't harder to shoot than the .375 H&H. They both kick. I use a standing bench, which helps.

I kinda like the idea it's the "boolet" more than the head stamp. Of course, how well the shooter performs is a key factor.

DF

My 416 Rem M70 was purpose built years ago for at least one buffalo hunt. It has done that well and will likely do it again. My SS 375 H&H M70 was purpose bought for at least one brown bear hunt. It has done that though unsuccessfully. It will try again in Alaska next year.

If bigger didn't have some advantage then Phil Shoemaker wouldn't use a 458 win mag

jwp,

Phil uses his .458 as a "stopper" when following up brown bears wounded by clients. That's a different thing than hunting brown bears.

He willingly guides brown bear hunters who use FAR lighter cartridges, as long as they use deep-penetrating bullets, including the .270 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield. That's because he's guided too many brown bear hunters who are "over-gunned," or over-excitable, so don't put the bullet in the right place.

He does NOT advise his clients to bring a .458.

I.understand that. Which validates my point " bigger hits harder" I also realize that Cape Buffalo have been and still can be taken with small bore rifles like the 7 mauser as well as others

Jwp,

Phil has posted and published magazine articles about all this many times--including that he firmly believes bullet placement is the major factor in "killing power."

He does NOT use his .458 exclusively as back-up on brown bears, as he's a long-time experimenter. Over the decades he's used a number of cartridges from the .30-06 to .505 Gibbs. His definition of a "stopping" round is not a cartridge that immediately drops charging animals, all the time, but one that even if it doesn't immediately kill them right there, stuns them enough to shoot again before they "recover." Which is why he decided the .505 was too much--he couldn't recover from the recoil quickly enough to shoot temporarily stopped bears before the bears started coming again. Having fired a .505 myself I can understand why. (Oh, and he's also killed a charging, mature brown bear with a 9mm handgun--partly because he could keep shooting it very quickly.)

But this discussion is about the .375 H&H and .416 Remington. Of course the .416 "hits harder" though I am also convinced that more recoil and the louder sound of the bullet hitting game have as much to do with how hunters perceive "hitting harder" as how the animal reacts.

But it also hits hunters harder--which is why so many of the PHs I know firmly believe in the .375 H&H for their clients: It kills buffalo very well if the bullet land in the right place, which in their experience happens more often with the .375 than harder-kicking cartridges. And many of them use the .375 as a back-up rifle themselves, partly because they can shoot repeat shots faster and more accurately if needed.

I realize all of this as I have read it from Phil.

When I had hopes to go to Africa I wanted to take my 2 pre 64s along. One in .300 H&H for general game and the other in .375 H&H for Cape Buffalo. It just surprised me that Shockey had such a low opinion of the .375. What is also interesting is Shockey used muzzleloaders on the same animals without vocal complaint that he condemns the .375 for.

Since I will never be able to match the hunting experiences of Boddington, Barsness and Shockey I need to rely on their expertise to pick and choose what to use.

jwp475, I don’t think that everyone is “ganging-up” against the .416…..it’s a great cartridge!

However, I and apparently many others, see the .375 H&H as a bit more flexible as an “all around”, for the average hunter/shooter ….especially those of average means that do not do not handload! memtb

Through many hunts and switching sticks with others I've learned what my limits are - .400J @ ~2,100 and the .404J @ ~2,200, both weighing 10 - 10.5 lbs all up. Really just as easy to hunt with as the H&H IMHO. Just love those two cartridges. The problem is those two are pretty much NOT off-the-rack rifles - one in a double and the other a turnbolt.

I went down the rabbit hole one time with a builder costing out a .404J build and what I learned was I could have one hell of a good time somewhere in Africa for the price of that rifle.

Of course, there's always the chance my son could decide to quit college...

I am fully aware that the 375 H&H has and still can take buffalo effectively. I am also aware that buffalo can be taken cleanly with smaller bore rifles and even handguns.

My statement that the 416 hits harder isn't subjective it is, fact. I have no idea why anyone wants to argue that point
The 458 hits harder than a 416

Jwp,

Did you read this in my post?--"Of course the .416 'hits harder'..."

But in my experience that doesn't mean it always kills buffalo any quicker than the .375 H&H, especially with typical heart-lung shots. Which is also my experience with a lot of smaller cartridges on big game smaller than buffalo.

I didn't say it kills quicker with heart and lung shots as I know it doesn't.
I've taken Asian Buffalo and Bison with a revolver. I know that a 475 or 500 hits harder than a 44 and I've seen them taken with 475, 500 and 44

Puddle,

Another fine round in the class of the .404 Jeffery is the .450/.400 Nitro Express, which also recoils similarly to the .375. In fact I almost bought a nice double in .450/.400 maybe 15 years ago, after I'd tried it out--but came to the same conclusion: I could go on another safari for that kind of money. Which is what I did....

Before I began hunting buffalo I was convinced that one of the 416’s was needed. Then I started shootings them with a 375 H&H. Hit in the right place a buffalo usually runs and then keels over, kaput. They run away because they are usually found in the presence of other buffaloes which always run away upon hearing a shot.

Now, after shooting many buffalo I have concluded the 416’s (and bigger) are an obstacle to marksmanship. A well placed first shot is the most important thing.

Incidentally, in many of the tv shows I have watched, the hunters take pretty marginal first shots.

MD,
My friend.
The Campfire is filled with opinions that are not supported by any experience.
A closed mind can’t understand the importance of the phrase “I don’t know.”
R

Quote from OP!
I really have no need for a medium/big bore but just want one just to have it. Only real use outside of fun at the range would be elk and black bears.

I’m leaning towards either a 375 H&H or 416 Remington but open to other thoughts. Mainly just looking to see what others would choose and why.😙😉

jwp475, At the top of this post is a quote from the OP!

He was merely asking for opinions as to what and why! He didn’t ask which would hit harder! And, without reading through all of these posts, I suspect that “no one” suggested or stated that the .375 H&H will “hit harder”!

The OP also stated that it may be used for Black Bear and/or elk……putting down one of Africa’s Big Five wasn’t on the agenda!

So essentially, IMO…..your issues are unfounded! memtb

I have a 375 H&H and find my 416 just as shootable, because it fits me very well.
What issues do you think I have? What is it that make you and others think the 375 H&H is versatile?

I was fairly detailed in “my” reasoning in a prior post!

I will reiterate ….the .416 is a great cartridge, but I feel that the .375 H&H better answers the OP’s desires based “only” on the information given! memtb

I think the 416 fits the OP criteria just as well as a 375 H&H

From Buffalo Bore

"moose, I’d not use the solids but would fill my rifle only with these TSX expanding loads.



We were able to engineer this load to be full power +, but not to exceed factory (SAAMI) pressure limits. You’ll note that my test gun, which was made to my specs almost 30 years ago, only has a 20-inch barrel as I designed this rifle to be more of a guiding and handy take everywhere rifle than a hunting rifle. Depending on barrel internals, longer barrels will probably give higher velocities…….this is a good place to read my article on “Velocity Versus Barrel Length.”



Dangerous Game ammo is best designed to be lower pressure to ensure that unfavorable conditions (such as hiking in a rainstorm in AK and getting rainwater in your barrel, etc.) will not raise pressure enough to hinder the reliability of proper cartridge and rifle function. Cartridge pressure can be your enemy, so keep it low as possible without affecting velocity, which is all about proper powder and bullet selection."


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=575

416 Remington 97 grains 2000MR under 350 grain Speer 2757FPS

93 Grains 2000MR under 350 TSX 2715 FPS

96 gr. Power Pro Varmint, 300 gr. Shock Hammer 3001 FPS

All are chronographed velocities and all grouped under 1 MOA at 100 yards

I think y'all are right: The OP should buy both.

Yea, I just got tired of saying ".450/.400 NE 3 inch" and just refer to it as the .400J (Jeffery). I got to use a Manton built .400J on a hunt and ended up wanting one of my own ever since.

The .400 S. Jeffery was actually the first ever "Nitro Express" done in 1897 as a single-shot Farquharson
a few months before Rigby got the .450 S. Rigby to survive proof in a set of double rifle barrels.
Later renamed respectively the .450/.400 Nitro Express 3" and .450 Nitro Express 3.25".
I think Rigby did the heavy lifting and Jeffery got a jump on him by industrial espionage.

Anyway, I first went to Africa with both a .375 H&H and a .416 Rigby.
Could not split that baby so I came up with the .395/.375 H&H and .395/.416 Rigby 20-degree-shoulder,
.395/.338 Lapua Magnum, .395/.375 Ruger, and .395/9.3x74mm,
the latter known as the .400 Nitro Express Aboriginal, like the Purdey .400 Light Rifle Express that might have been an inspiration for Rigby and Jeffery.
The .395/.416 Rigby was called the .395 Tatanka, and killed well in Africa,
one shot on everything it was pointed at, up to zebra size,
except one warthog gutshot in the brush requiring a finisher.

I tried using a caliber midway between .375 and .416,
but I still could not split the baby.
Actually all three performed about the same.

So I just moved on to the .458 Winchester Magnum with high-BC, monometal copper, 404-gr bullets at 2500 fps.
And I shall never look back at the rat calibers.

Yep! Which is exactly what I did, more than once--along with a .416 Rigby, which when loaded to "traditional" pressures is the same basic thing as the .416 Remington. Though the Rigby can also be safely heated up to .416 Weatherby velocities.

But the .375 is versatile enough that I've used it both as the "heavy" and "light" rifle on safaris.

Another more obscure advantage of the .375 is that just about every PH has some spare ammo, usually left behind by clients. That's generally not true of the .416s, and in fact on one my early safaris the PH told a story about how a recent safari client had brought a .416 Remington--with one 20-round box of ammo. Exactly why he didn't say, but between hunting and checking the scope occasionally the guy ran out before the end of the safari. The closest store that had any was a 120-mile drive, one way--and when they got there the ammo cost more than twice as much a box as the guy had paid in the U.S. Plus he lost a day of hunting.

If he'd had a .375 the PH could have supplied plenty of ammo--partly because his main backup rifle was a .375 H&H.

Oh, and on that safari I brought a .375 as my only rifle--but had enough ammo.