Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Rifle Cant

At what range does rifle cant really start to cause issues?

Was at a Highpower shoot this weekend and noticed that in the standing position - quite a few shooters end up with quite the rifle cant to their left as they line up on the target. Wondering if the yardage is such that it just doesn't come into play?

It also doesn't matter if it's accounted for.

In High Power, most riflemen keep a scorebook. In each section or shooting position, offhand sitting and prone, their zero is recorded, many shooters may have a different zero for each position. As some examples, offhand no sling is used and maybe some cant...likely a different poi from rapid sitting...both shot at the 200 yd line but the sling is used...they will likely have a different zero. So, since you have a different zero for each stage, cant makes no difference as long as it is uniform and you have established a zero to compensate. In my case, for instance, you would look at my scorebook and see that I have clicked on 1R windage for offhand...but rapid sitting I will click 2R for my zero because of the poi change to the sling tension and an elevation change of 1D because (maybe?) of bone to bone contact on my elbow/knee joints. So cant means nothing after you know its impact on poi and compensate for it.

I corrected for that with a small level glued to the base of my front sight, and hours of dry fire, in the winter, and shooting small bore postal league. Learned a lot, like how important follow through and cant was in offhand, as related to sight/bullet/bore dwell time. Bolt guns, ofcourse..

I thought I was extremely capable of staying level until I purchased a Sharps that came with a level on the front sight. Boy was I wrong.

Withour sight adjustments, cant is simply a linear function of distance.

Cant matters. Just how much depends on what you are willing to accept. It also depends on how far out (of plumb) it is. I generally don't see much if any at 400 yards. Most of the guys I shoot with at competitions use levels, but those shots are out past 600 yards. I generally hold the reticle pretty level, but some guys really struggle. YMMV..

No levels for these guys - service rifle shooters.

Per David Tubb:

"a 1° cant will produce five (5) inches of lateral displacement at 1000 yards. Thus, if you cant your rifle just 8°, the POI would move 40″ from the center of the target, putting the shot off the edge of a 72″-wide target."

So, basically 1/2 MOA.

I tend to cant my hunting rifles pretty bad in a CCW direction as looking at target - not sure if it's 1°. Something about getting a good cheek weld does it. Have thought about just putting the scope on with a CW rotation.

The actual number is also dependent on the line of sight height over the bore. The POI will be off in the direction of the cant AND lower.

If you can see a cant without a level or a horizontal/ vertical target/background reference of some sort it is much more that 1 degree in my opinion.

The White Oak scope has a specific "can't" reticle so you can be repeatable in your position.

If you sight in at 500 yards or any range with a cant, as long as you shoot with THE SAME CANT, at the same range, you’ll still be on. Change the cant and you get the POI shifts as mentioned above.

The reticle needs To be level, the rifle can be canted. As long as the reticle is level then your adjustments are correct

Finally the correct answer! In fact if a person finds that there rifle always move slightly right or left when they shoot they can get a shooting position with the rifle that works in a more direct line of attack by setting up the rifle to be canted just a bit. For a right handed shooter putting a slight left can't on the rifle works very well as long as "the reticle" is set up to shoot "Level"

Not quite.

Shooting with a cant has its advantages in comfort and accuracy in different positions which is why it is used by some position shooters. It's disadvantage is the windage zero changes at each distance. No getting around that...

That's my "not quite".

I was confident you understood.

Yup. The orientation of the reticle makes no difference to this particular issue (albeit, if you are holding over using the reticle, then a level reticle results in consistent windage offset as a function of distance). If the horizontal axis of the bullet's trajectory is not aligned with the LOS, i.e., if the centerline of the bore is not directly underneath the center of the reticle, the windage changes with distance.

Hello Mike, I believe you missed the part where I said......the rifle can be canted "But the scope has to be set level".As long as the scope is level when you pull the trigger you won't get windage change because the reticle is tracking true

Sorry, but even with the level reticle, the windage can only be correct at one distance if there is a cant involved.

It is impossible for the reticle to be "level" and "canted" at the same time

If the reticle is level, but the bore centerline is not directly below it, the rifle is canted.

Totally incorrect, if the rifle is canted and the reticle is level all adjustments both vertical and horizontal will be correct.

The best case scenario for that situation is that a consistent left or right offset from point of aim can be maintained. If windage is set to perfect zero, it will be different at other distances.

Well that's interesting! My main long range rifle is set up with a small cant but my scope is set to level! It tracks perfectly true out past 1200 yds without dialing windage. Please tell me how exactly I achieved that if it's not possible.

There is a big difference between doing it and guessing about it! When set up properly the windage is zero problem at all. Perhaps share with the group how you have your long range rifle set up so we can figure out where your problem is

It's a simple geometry situation. I can only assume that the offset difference is lost in the background clutter of the wind and other factors in your situation. I shoot at 1000 yard several times a month and have 3300 rounds on my current .308 barrel in the last 18 months for what that's worth. Spin drift amounts to a solid .75 moa at 1000 yards, but of course you know that. Add in the wind, and it is never still for that distance and I'll repeat the offset I mention can easily be missed. Best of luck with your long range shooting. The more you learn the better it gets.

What you just described has nothing to do with what we were discussing but OK

When I make an adjustment for windage at 1000 yds it's based on spin drift and wind only. In dead calm I don't adjust at all. I only have 1800 rounds down range in the last 7 months. Our thousand yard steel is 12" square. I guess I'm lucky as hell to continually hammer the hell put of the steel without adjusting for the cant in the rifle.

At some point you shot with a canted "scope" and you computed that into your equations and now are passing it along as the same as cant in the rifle.. A canted rifle and a canted scooe are two different things. Next you will be putting the primer in the bullet end and the bullet in the primer pocket. Its rather important to keep things that are different where they belong rather than mixing them up and calling them the same. Best of luck to you in your shooting endeavors as well.

My observation was that this particular shooter, who happened to be a junior coach and seemed to be quite skilled:

Prone/Sitting - fairly vertical rifle/scope hold

Standing - the position seemed to have cant into it, to the left. He was shooting a March scope so he's well invested and not a casual plinker - made me wonder about the issues that MAY arise from that.

I used a lot of cant with my AR service rifle due to the short length of pull and near vertical grip compared to my M1. All is good , you just need to add some windage adjustments to the elevation corrections or the different stages.

Trystan, I have re-read my posts and have not interchanged any terminology.

One more try for the geometrically declined:

1. A canted rifle is a canted rifle whether the reticle is leveled or not.

2. Leveling the reticle will true up the windage and elevation adjustments back to vertical and horizontal. It will dramatically reduce the horizontal shifts and eliminate the vertical shifts.

3. Leveling the reticle WILL NOT place the line of sight vertically above the path of the bullet. There will be an offset based on the amount of cant.

4. Forcing a true windage zero with this line of sight misalignment will only be correct at that distance. Accepting the offset distance and paralleling it at all distances is another option.

5. If the geometry still does not make sense, I believe most hand held shooting ballistic apps should have inputs for sight offsets. With a level reticle over a canted rifle, that offset is what should be input. You can play around with the numbers and see if it matters for your "slight cant".

6. Based on the amount of cant, the ranges involved, and the resolution of the shooter/rifle system, these differences may not be noticed among the other variables.

Remember to load the pointy end first. It is rather important. :-)

"blackboard" for the win...

Addendum. Top view of LOS and bullet trajectory versus distance for uncanted and canted rifle, regardless of reticle orientation. As Mike said, if you zero the rifle with the initial windage offset the same at the zero range, then the windage offset will be constant with distance. If making trajectory adjustments using reticle or erector, then scope orientation matters.

great discussion

A Jordan masterpiece 😁 and is a good illustration of the problem

Good, informative discussion here, without too much of the usual thread disintegration.

I personally level everything to the earth at the point of initial scope installation. If it’s a gun I’m going to regularly dial and shoot out past about 400 yards (IMO, real world point where canting starts to result in meaningful dispersion, resulting in misses), I will also install an auxiliary bubble level on the scope to keep me level in the field. Especially when shooting angles on uneven terrain. Sometimes what appears level to the eye, isn’t.

Oh yeah. It’ll be worth millions some day.

Would a critic say it's derivative of prior work?

Certainly. But I can’t control market demand.

Just like Hunter’s huh? 😁

Something like that! Haha

An informed long-range rifleman will tell his gun builder to make sure and clock that barrel up dead nuts at 12:00. A good long-range gun builder will answer with way ahead of ya partner.

IYKYK

So, with a little practice it seems canting the rifle into the wind could allow holding on the target and letting the amount of cant to handle windage.

Then that would screw with the elevation.

The windage does not change with distance unless you adjust the scope to center at some distance. If the scope is offset 1/4" (one quarter inch) to the left, and the rifle is sighted to hit center at 100 yd, it will hit two and a quarter inches right at 1000. If the rifle is sighted to hit center at 1000 yds, it will never be more the 1/4" off at any range under 1000 yds (ignoring the effect of wind and mirage, of course). If the rifle is sighted to hit 1/4 inch left at 100, it will be 1/4 inch left from zero to infinity. The higher the scope is mounted, the more offset will result from the same amount of cant. With adjustable stocks, cant can be minimized for any position. If you can't use an adjustable stock (rules etc.) you make the stock to work in one position, and adjust your body for the rest! GD

Good summary, however spin drift prevents the above 1000 yard sight zero scenario from working as described if you are referring to actual point of impacts. If you are only referring to line of sight your description is correct.

Yes. I ignored ,wind, mirage, spin drift, gyroscopic precession, and direction of the shot. In truth, any time I have turn an "X" into an eight, it was because I missed a wind change. I could never fins anything else to blame. GD

True that on the wind! I do treat spin drift as a constant in relation to impact whereas all of the others are variable. At those all too rare times when I have a perfect 1000 yard no wind zero, I would then shoot at 500 yards and see a consistent POI 1/2 MOA left which centers the group on the left X ring line and asking for 9s or worse. I had to ask one of our top national shooters why that was and then the light bulb turned on...of course he additionally said "that's what sighters are for."

Or, said another way, unless the windage component of the POI is set to exactly match the bore offset (not the scope offset) at some distance downrange, windage will change with distance.

Yes it can

Well played Bb, well played.