Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Reloading 40-82 and 38-56

My brother-in-law collects 86 Winchesters and wants to shoot them. No problem for the .45-70. Ammunition and components for the .38-56 and .40-82 are hard to find. I reload, he doesn't. I managed to acquire brass and dies for both and a selection of powders that should work. I also have a Lee mold for a 250-grain FN bullet that should work in the .38-56. Lyman makes a 240-grain .406" mold, but I believe the original .40-82 load used a 260-grain slug. I'd welcome advice/data from anyone out there with experience loading either caliber with smokeless powders. We don't need elephant loads, just mild, accurate ammunition for casual target shooting and possibly the occasional deer.
The two .38-56s have very nice bores. One looks almost new. The other may have been shot a bit more, but is bright and has plenty of life left. When I size my cast bullets, what diameter would you suggest? The mold says .379" as-cast.
The .40-82 is a little rough, visible rifling with some erosion. I gather the actual diameter varies more on this than the .38-56. I figure on giving it a good cleaning before slugging it to determine the actual diameter. If it's larger than .406", what about using Keith-style bullets for the .41 Magnum sized down? They'll be a good deal lighter than the originals were. Is that going to be a problem for our purposes?

Clyde "Snooky" Williamson has extensive write-ups and load data in his book:
WINCHESTER LEVER LEGACY
Below relates to 1886 originals he tested.

40-82 WCF: pp 111-122, bore slugged: .407" groove diameter
sample:

cast bullets used were .407"/262-gr
with 29.0 gr of "4198" and one "full sheet of folded toilet tissue on all cast bullet loads"
1481 fps at 5 yards
4" group for 5 shots at 100 yards
Original BP load was supposed to be 1430 fps with that bullet.

Jacketed bullets used were .406"/250-gr Barnes
Best hunting load:
50.0 gr "3031"
2031 fps at 5 yards
1-1/8" group 5 shots at 100 yards
26" penetration on Rump Shot Deer


38-56 WCF: pp 123-132, bore slugged: .3745" groove diameter
cast bullets were sized to .377"
jacketed bullets were sized to .375"
255-gr both bullets, cast and Barnes Original
Cast:
11.0 grains Unique >>> 1390 fps, 4-7/8" group
Barnes Jacketed:
39.5 grains 3031 >>> 1830 fps, 4-1/2" group

Half sheet of TP for filler on the Unique load.

Sizing the jacketed .410 pistol bullets down to .406" or .407" for a groove diameter of .407"
should cause nice plinking bullets.

For cast bullets and smokeless, .002" bigger than the groove diameter is what I would do.

Slug the bores, surprises may happen.

Great advice here once again Sir Ron!

Not that you need my approval but that is as sound as advice could get to help Longbow out and keep him headed in the right direction
as it sounds like he's willing to do. Sometimes an extra vote of confidence from a proven Qualified resource is all we need.

HS 58

My copy of Legacy of Lever Guns (Rifle Mag special edition circa 2000), gives loads for the .38-56 WCF in a Win Model 1886 - mostly for a single cast bullet (274 RCBS 37-250 sized to 0.381" for a rifle with same bore diameter) with H-4198, XMR-2495, H-4895, RL-7 and RL-15 powders. One load is also given for the Barnes 220 gr RN with RL-7. If you have those powders, PM me for data.

OOH !
My copy of Williamson's WINCHESTER LEVER LEGACY was a 1988 first edition.
RIFLE Magazine special edition ca 2000 ... LEGACY OF LEVER GUNS
... I'll go look for that corner of my round room here, thanks.

From the bookshelf in the corner of my round room:

RIFLE magazine special editions:

Winter 2000: THE LEGACY OF LEVER GUNS
Winter 2009: THE LEGACY OF LEVER GUNS
2016 Display until 11/28/16: WINCHESTER LEVERGUNS

Don't forget the easy ones, using AA-5744 with either cast or jacketed.

Interesting reading.
2016:
The entire special ed. of RIFLE was by "Editor Emeritus" Dave Scovill.
He cited a lot of Clyde "Snooky" Williamson's loads.

A Scovill pet load for the .40-82 WCF, 26" barrel, M1886:
270-gr Hawk JHP, 30.0 gr AA-5744 >>> 1506 fps, 1.75" 5-shot group at 70 yards, no filler, ES for 5 shots = 34 fps

A Scovill pet load for the .38-56 WCF, 26" barrel, M1886:
274-gr RCBS 37-250 cast, sized to .381", 34.0 gr H4895 >>> 1671 fps, 0.75" 5-shot group (!!!!!) at 70 yards, no filler.

2009 Special ed. RIFLE:
Mix of authors.
Mike Venturino pet load for the .40-82 WCF, 20" barrel, shortened from original 26" M1886:
280-gr Brooks Custom Cast, 25.0 gr AA-5744 >>> 1394 fps, 1.75" 5-shot group at 100 yards, no filler

Mike Venturino pet load for the .38-56 WCF, 26" barrel, M1886:
275-gr RCBS 38-255-FN cast, 20.0 gr AA-5744 >>> 1382 fps, no filler.

2000 Special ed, RIFLE:
Ken Waters gave history of the Pre-War Winchester Lever Guns.
.40-82 WCF started off for .403" bullet but ended up mostly with .406" grooves and used .408" cast-lead bullets, 26" barrels of 1:28" twist.
Smokeless loads were available from factory by 1899, 260-gr FMJ at 1492 fps.
Old handloading manuals showed up to 1860 fps with 260-gr jacketed.
Mike Venturino had a .40-82 WCF with .409" grooves and shot best with .410"-sized 280-gr Brooks Custom Cast,
after he inside-neck-turned RCBS .45 Basic brass that he had shortened to 2.4" brass length.

.38-56 WCF barrels varied from .3745" to .381" in the grooves, according to all the authorities above summed up.
26" barrel length of 1:20" twist was the usual antique Winchester 1886.
Waters says smokeless loads came from factory in 1899, were 255-gr jacketed at 1397 fps.