Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 7.62x39 vs 6.5 Grendel vs 6mm ARC

Which one would you/do you prefer?

Use would be deer inside 200 yards 95% of the time, a moose a bit closer than that IF the chance ever arose when that was what you had.

What bullet would you choose?

Just a hypothetical or are you looking to buy? If so I’d get whichever you can get good ammo for reliably.

I have taken moose and caribou with the Russian round because it’s what I had at the time. Both under 100 yards. Worked OK. Cheap ammo alway available, not necessarily great hunting ammo.

My choice is the Grendel. Have taken caribou, deer, mountain goat up to 200yrds. Ammo was available and I now have plenty of hunting ammo stocked up. Cheap ammo still available.

No experience with the ARC but on paper looks like the best for long range paper and steel. Trading diameter for downrange velocity…..

All 3 are pretty light for moose. Better get close shoot tight to be ethical about it. None of them have much poop after 200 yards. I feel 6.5 is the happy middle ground gets the most out of the powder volume for hunting to 200-250.

I have all three in an AR platform and a 6.5 Grendel in a Howa mini. All 3 would work for deer, but for moose I’d say the Grendel or 7.62x39. Of the three, I prefer the 6.5 with the 6 ARC a close second and my 7.62x39 is just a cheap plinker.

For bullet, probably a TTSX or Hammer bullet of some sort in the Grendel or ARC. I wouldn’t shy away from the ELD-X for deer either.

Not a hypothetical. I'll be using one (or more) of the three for a general purpose, out and about most of the time rifle. And a Tikka T3x Superlite 24.4" barreled 6.5 CM for dedicated big game and longer ranges.

Interesting to know you have taken moose with 7.62x39! Some folks I know in person have up here as well, but like you said, at quite close ranges. If I go that way, its Barnes 123gr TSX or loading Hornady 110CX or 120 Tac-Tx bullets meant for the 300 BLK. I think that 120gr at 2300 fps or so would be good. If placed right. Or a 123 gr Gold Dot. Speers online load data is pretty hot.

Not my first choice for the big stuff....and I know the Grendel is more verastile and does generally all around better things with those bullet weights!

Interested in hearing as much as you want to tell about hunting with both though!


Thanks Hudge! Same to you, would definitely be interested in hearing anything you'd be willing to share.

I thought about all 3 of those. I know not on your list but another possible option.

Ended up going with the 6.8 SPC.

If the possibility of a moose were on the menu I would try for a load with the TTSX.

Just deer or pigs for me so I got some 110 grain Accubonds to load. For now it's factory 120 grain Hornady SST.

New home build going now so no real time to work up a load.

That sounds like a great way to go. Wonder how much the 6.5 Grendel's 115gr Tac-Tx lags behind?

If 6.8 SPC were more commonly found in bolt guns here, I'd probably go with that too

I use my Grendel for the purpose you intend. And as a dedicated mt goat gun. Light and handy. On my second one now. First was a light AR, now Ruger American Ranch. I often think a 16-18” Creedmore or 6.5x55 would be better but I’m well stocked on Grendel ammo and it seems to work OK. I think of it as a modern day 30-30 or Mannlicher carbine. I’m a little embarrassed to admit it but I guess people now accept match bullets for hunting - most of the animals I’ve killed have been with the 100gr Wolf FMJ ammo. It seems to tumble reliably, acts like a 270…. Much better than sp 55gr 223 in my experience. Much better. Have also used the 120 fusion (I believe it’s a Speer bullet) and 123 SST as well. Both work but are small, slow bullets. Ok for the opportunist or subsistence hunter. Not something to shoot big animals at tough angles. Our deer are 100-150 lbs so it works great for them.

The moose I killed with an SKS was during a winter cow hunt during the Obama ammo shortage. I couldn’t get ammo for my 6.5x55 or 375 so I took what I had. I expected to keep shots under 100yards and good conditions. -20 and snowstorm. Thick timber. Killed a cow at 20-30yrds with head shot. Doesn’t tell much. Could have done it with 22mag. Better than a bow or spear anyways. I had previously killed a couple of caribou on subsistence hunts with the sks. 100yards ish. Again, most anything would work for that. 223 very popular here for that but I see too much bad shooting and bad bullet performance with it. People just use it because it’s cheap and readily available.

I could have missed it.

Bolt action?

I hadn't mentioned but yeah, a bolt action

Doesn't say a whole lot except you can shoot lol but I know what you mean...the SKS put a good hurt on the caribou?

As for the wolf ammo, hey if it works it works!

Kind of surprised the 6.5 Grendel doesn't do a bit better with the 123gr SST though. They seem to be a pretty violent bullet, even if slow.

Was thinking about the 22" Ruger American or Howa with sporter barrel and walnut stock. Maybe cut an American Predator down to 20" and see what that does.

I know what you mean tho...kind of 8-10 grains away from a Creedmoor and more capability

Yes the Russian round worked just fine. No different from the 30-06 next to me. But caribou are not too tough to kill.

The 123 SST is relatively violent and works just fine on small deer. No experience on larger animals. My guess is that the bullet is both too fragile for penetration, but to small and slow to give meaningful ‘shock’ or ‘wallop’ or whatever on large animals ala the 220 Swift controversy. I’m sure it would work under the right circumstance, but I’m also sure it would not give me confidence on a bad shot on large game. My 375 with monometals does. As does the 6.5x55 with 120 or 130 monos. Have cleanly taken an average sized bison with that combo. One heart shot done.

If it sounds like I am down on the Grendel - I’m not. I love mine. It’s so easy to shoot. My wife has a 308 but prefers the Grendel. My kids will most likely cut their hunting teeth with it. It is a great bumming around light duty hunting round. It is not destructive on meat or hides like the 243. Ammo is not terrible to find and cheap to reload. In an AR it is the most versatile round for an outdoorsman in my opinion.

But in a bolt gun I do often think a creedmore with 16-20” bbl would be better. 100s at 3000 for varmints, 120s at 2700 for anything, 140s at 2400 for heavy game. Be a wicked combo. The Howa is a true micro action. I couldn’t get over the bottom plastic. The CZ is no longer made but I would love to try one. The Ruger is rugged and reliable but is the same action size as the 308 or creedmore….. I do like the 10 round magazine of the Ruger Grendel. Like a SMLE! Sure for a pure hunting gun you don’t need it. In fact I prefer a Ruger no. 1. But for bumming around, trapping, traveling - you don’t need to worry about bringing xtra ammo and if you do need to reload with gloves or mittens on it’s quick easy and rounds are contained. So all in all, yes I like my Grendel.

Any idea if these have a .308 or .310 bore?

https://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/16976.html

Its a .310 bore but a loose 308 bore and a tight 310 bore have a bit of overlap lol. They definitely shoot .308" bullets accurately.

Taj, thanks again for the info! All of the above makes a lot of sense, besides just being a good read.


Speaking of monos, thats part of why the 6mm ARC attracted me. With a 22" barrel you can probably get some really good speed on something like a 95gr LRX or 90gr CX....and not suffer the barrel life constraints of 6mm Creedmoor. Course you lose capability too, but inside 200 yards, reckon it moves those bullets enough to get some good expansion. So would a 20"...the bolt gun data is hot compared to gas gun in the Hornady manual. It beats a 223 anyway.

For sure. In his book ‘Hunting the Hunters’, Rick Kinmon details why he settled on the small 6 (can’t remember which one, XC, PPC, etc….). But his target maxes out at small deer-sized wolves. For fast longer shots in windy country at small fragile and expensive targets (fur animals) no doubt it is The Way. My only experience with the 6mm is 243 on deer. Effective but very destructive.

Several very experienced hunters, including Finn Aagaard have written of their experience-based doubts about 6mm effectiveness on large game. Yet the 6.5 caliber in slow military cartridges has over a century of praise for use on large game. Bell, Sheldon, Stefansson, Aagaard, others….. Different times of course, but sometimes the overwhelming experience of others can be a good place to start. I know that the majority of my rounds will impact dirt, paper, steel or tundra; but there are times the rifle in hand gets put to use on game of size beyond that originally envisioned.

Be curious what you end up with

I'll let you know!

One of the other things I'm wondering...Big Stick showed pictures of how with the floorplate/internal mag setup he has for his Howas, he can seat a bullet out longer than with the factory plastic detachable mags.

That would allow for loading the 7.62x39 with some of the best in class bullets for the 300 BLK like the 110gr Barnes Tac-Tx and Hornady CX, or the Barnes 120gr Tac-Tx...just faster. And being able to use the mag and not load it as a single shot.

The Grendel is a better general purpose cartridge due to it's flatter trajectory. 7.62x39 just can't hang out past 150 yards when it becomes like a rainbow. But it is the superior moose cartridge because of heavier 154gr loads.

Might be onto something. 30-30 muzzle ballistics with pointy bullets…. Be good 200 yard gun probably. Fun to plink with. Wouldn’t hold up to the smaller ones at the 500 range but who cares

I've shot or got every chambering cited and a bunch that haven't been. As OEM SALAMI parcels go and of the ilk,thr 6 ARC is simply fhuqking KING. Nothing else is even fhuqking close. Hint.




Bullets matter wayyyyyyyyyy more than anything/everything else. A 19" ARC will scoot a .620 BC 112 at 2700fps. JO V2 BDL bottom metal,to THE Rescue. Hint.







The 7.62x39 is an ABSOLUTE Goat Fhuqk. The Grendel isn't horrid,but the ARC crushes all of it,along with the 6x45. Hint.

Bullets,bullets,bullets ladies and in that order. HINT.....................

I do not have the potential Of moose size critters where I hunt. So 6mm ARC Bolt action with 22" barrel & 90 grain CX over CFE 223 is where it is at for me.

If I knew Moose were a potential as well, then a 22" bolt action 6.5 Grendel with a Hammer offering would likely be my go to option.

I think a lot of guys are stuck on All hype and numbers now days. BC , SD, magnum this or that, etc….
Lots of big game has been taken in Africa with the 76239. Also in Russia the 762x54R is used on big bears. And the old 6.5 Sweed has been taking moose down in Europe for over a century.
Americans are size queens.

From what I've seen, the grendel has a rainbow trajectory past 250 yards. In real world use, the 7.62 is very comparable to the grendel. Both cartridges are not real flat shooters, lets face it. If someone had to bend my arm and make me choose, I'd probably choose the grendel because the ammo is going to shoot better. Any way you slice it. Shooting a .308 bullet down a .310 or .311 bore, isn't going to be exactly accurate. Here's an example of what a new RAR Ranch rifle my buddy just bought, does when stretching its legs a bit:



We had to zero it at 200 yards, to make use of the very handy Burris ballistic plex reticle. At 400 yards, the grendel still hits the steel plate pretty hard too. His intended use for the rifle is for yote hunting. I like the 7.62x39, but the grendel is going to shoot more accurately and carry as much punch at the op's stated distance of 200 yards.


6.5 Grendel v. 7.62x39 article

The Grendel is not ‘more accurate’ just because SOME 7.62x39 factory ammo and rifle makes aren’t the greatest. I’ve seen some doggone accurate x39 rifle/ammo setups. I’ve also seen some lousy shooting Grendels. If you’re gonna handload, there’s zero reason a 7.62x39 isn’t capable to 200…..especially if loading to Grendel pressures, or more. I think it gets restricted by 5-7k vs the Grendel in factory stuff. I think either would work, but I think the x39 would be better for what you spec, and I’d take more twist for 150s if I could get it or run the lighter monos as fast as I could.

Grendel with Barnes 115 Tac Tx

6.5 Grendel. 129 Nosler ABLR or one of the Maker offerings if you handload.

I've liked the Hornady Black with the ELDM bullet for easy to find off the shelf stuff. I like the SST but I don't think I'd use it on the larger animals you mention.

I deer hunt with a Tikka in 260 and Nosler 120 gr BTs, but then switch to my 6.5 Grendel and the 123 gr SST for hogs. The SST does a fine job. I don’t get exits with the SST, but the hogs don’t go far. I think that at Grendel speeds, the SST is just about right.

I've loaded the 6.5Gr with 160gr RN and it's quite the hammer under 200yds. 22" Ruger, approaches the old 6.5x54 which has accounted for quite a few moose, just saying.

I load my Grendal with 129 gr Hornady SPs, and either 140 grain Hornady SP or Speer 140 grain SP, and the powder load is 29 grains of W 748.

Have gotten game with bullet exits at 200 to 250 yds, consistently.

Mine is a Ruger American Predator...

I look at it, like a 30/30 with 6.5 mm bullets, much flatter shooting and higher sectional densities, even with an MV in either the 2350 fps range with 140s, or 2450 fps with 129s

4.5 x 14 Burris Scope on top, factory synthetic stock.

so far the rifle doesn't know how to be inaccurate...with anything I've put down the barrel...
from 85 grain HPs to 142 grain Match Kings.

That and the 6 x 45 I rebarreled another rifle to, where necking up a 223 case, I have an endless supply of brass.

With a 100 grain SP, or a 105 grain SP, velocity in the 2550 to 2600 fps MV.
Truth be told, for hunting at this point in my life....both cover anything I'm going to be busy hunting.

FMJ ammo is prohibited/illegal to use on game animals in most places in the US and Canada isn't it?

Back in the early 1990s when you could buy cases of new NORINCO SKS rifles for as little as $50 per rifle, I bought a case of them. Subsequently I shot a couple of deer with the 7.62x39 and thought that it was okay, but none were DRT even when shot through the heart or lungs. I bought my wife a Davidson's special run non-cataloged 77 MK2 in 7.62x39 to see how accurate it could be, which was, again, okay, but nothing spectacular. I have also shot a couple of coyotes and badgers out at the ranch with the SKS, but only 'cause it was in the truck when I saw them. I even "accurized" one SKS with a Lyman peep sight that mounted to the receiver, not just the receiver cover, but that didn't improve the accuracy enough to do it a second time or to recommend spending $75 on the sight.

A couple of months ago I put a 6.5 Grendel together and shot a couple of deer with it using the 129 grain Hornady SST factory loads. It worked okay and, at least in this rifle, is much more accurate than any rifle that I've shot in 7.62x39.

I don't have any 6mm ARC experience.

Someone noted that a lot of African game is shot with the 7.62x39 which may be true, but it is probably shot with AKs or RPKs set on full-auto and not by someone who paid for a sporting license.

have been running 6.5 Grendel exclusively for 6 years straight on Alberta Big Game, 3 shooters (Dad, 2 boys getting started), 20 kills, 7 species, 10-420 yards, average shot distance somewhere around 165 and recovering distance somewhere around 10 yards, only ammo I've used has been Hornady Black, deadly little b1tch
Moose, black bear, bighorn sheep, mule deer, whitetail deer, antelope and a bonus wolf. Will eventually get an elk for species #8.

notice shorter recoveries and more drt's than many years previous running 270's and .270 wsm with 140 accubonds, there is magic when you get the formula of impact velocity, sectional density, and construction type for game intended, slowing down high sd rapid construction bullets to moderate velocities just plain works, as a hunter it offers more balance of all check marks to check than the ARC which like the 6 creed or any other 6 compared a 6.5 will always end up niche and give up some key check marks in order to excel at a couple that don't matter to majority or hunting (0-500 game anyway for most) so the ARC (which is just a 6 Grendel anyway) adds 150-175 yards for same impact velocities but that's already beyond the 500 yards anyway so useless to hunters and therefore like most 6's becomes sort of a niche hybrid target/deer/varmint...you get more balance in barrel life, having a bullet 120 gr or better (a big game minimum for many), more efficient in short barrel and I'm sure a few other areas, actually splitting c-hairs but in my minimums 120 gr bullet weight is a minimum threshold so the 6 grendel is off the list, we only hunt and care about hunting, the 6.5 Top G with a 123gr eld-m is about the most efficient way you could burn 30 grains of powder period, essentially a 3/4 scale 308 running 168's with 50% less recoil, a dynamite formula

I've seen that argument before where the ARC is superior in every way...no it's not. Only in a couple niche categories, the 6.5 is the most versatile and efficient of the choices on that case, full stop. We have bang flopped deer to 420 with a 16.1" barrel ruger murican ranch...it's almost a little much for deer really, it starts to really strut it's stuff if you get quartering shots on larger body deer, or larger black bears and larger game period. Nothing will take that in the ribs that we hunt. If you're gonna burn 30 grains of powder that's the top choice.

Even heard some range stars prefer the 6.5 Top G to the Arc due to the better audibles on steel and visible on misses for the bigger splashes than the 6 so if 700 is far enough for the range play definitely consider the 6.5 for those reasons. If you niche is to push little short fats to 1k on the range etc. then go 6.

The 6 being the first off the shelf available equiv. to the br/ppc/dasher is awesome, will keep that popularity rocking for the 6.5 variant also. It's a real peach for the 30 gr powder class. It's the 6.5 Creedmoor Short, or 21st century 30-30 equivalent (triple the effective range), or the 3/4 scale 308 with half the recoil. There's a ton to love with the Top G.

the Top G and the Arc are in a different league than the 7.62, the sd is pathetic on that light a bullet in 30 cal, makes it very niche and unbalanced, I'd take a 30-30 over the 7.62x39 by a mile for a hunting cartridge that burns only 30 grains of powder...but I'd take the Top G over those 2 any day and would only choose the Arc if a gun held to my head...but I would take the Arc over the 30-30 and 7.62x39.

You had me until that! LOL!

Good write-up.

The 264 Grendel simply can’t begin to hang with the 243 Grendel/ARC. Hint.

Bullets matter wayyyyyy more than headstamps ladies. Hint………..

I guess it’s Opposite Day for some. Little Stick forgot to add in why the 6 shines in his opinion. He does have a tendency to not understand perspective and hyper focus on just a couple key things.

Yup bullets matter most. For those who hunt, want max barrel life, want max efficieny from short barrels then the 6 doesn’t even make the list when the 6.5 is in the running. The 123 gr eldm gets the most from 30 grains. The 6mm 108 eldm has a bit more bc and sd and a fine choice, the 103 not bad either, as said they add 150/170 yards effective range to same impact velocities which is well past where hunting is over for 98% of hunters. The Grendel 123 has the perfect velocity for eldm from muzzle to 500...the added speed of the arc takes that efficiency away and moves that 500 yard window further down range...which is fine for target guys. You’ll never wear a Grendel 123 barrel out, as close to .22lr barrel life as you’ll get in something that can kill elk at 400 and deer as far as you can hit them.

Come on stick, explain yourself, or have I done that for you already, twice.

For discussion purposes only off the shelf offerings will be discussed or compared. Reloading doesn’t count as that makes any cartridge infinitely more versatile. And also rules out the majority of readers and hunters and shooters who don’t reload.

How much shorter would you expect the barrel life to be on the arc? And how are you calculating efficiency?

I stated simplistic facts and dangled exceptional pixels of same. None of which is subjective. Hint.

The 264 Grendel simply can’t hang,due something called “bullets”. Hint.

Hurt Feeler Reports can’t/won’t change Physics. Hint…………..

only to your list, which where you think it excels in one or two categories, it gives up in one or two others, it just may be the best for your particular 'range only' needs bench guy lol

Pardon my simply shooting it all,as you Pretend aloud and talk out your ass. Hint.

Hurt Feeler Reports can’t/won’t change Physics. Hint………,

a similar ratio between the 6.5 creedmoor and 6 creedmoor....we already know you couldn't wear out a 6.5 Grendel bolt action barrel..but adding a couple hundred fps might be a different story with the Arc, will it still be awesome barrel life...more than likely, can you wear one out? perhaps, if they do with ppc/br/dashers then you probably have your answer, keep to saami pressures will certainly help, that 123gr at 52,000 psi and 2400 fps isn't ever gonna need a tube

as for barrel length and bullets getting to their speeds in what lengths, slower heavier gets to it's thing over shorter distances, faster lighter stuff seems to need more length to get to its speed, so decades of listening to gun talk on the forums say, 308 vs 6 creedmoor...16" barrel...which one you choosing and why? will let the extra experts quantify it if needed, example, the factory rating of 108 vs 123 eldm is about 4 ft/lbs more ke than the 108, do believe this gap widens as you go shorter between light/heavy same charges etc. bows do this too, shot 70 lb for ages, 350 gr arrows would leave with 70 ft/lbs ke, 450 gr arrows would leave with 72 ft/lbs ke...same bow, its not a linear thing going from slower heavier to lighter faster

little stick won't explain, just living in his own little world of superiority lol, no hurt feelers here bud, make all the assumptions you like, sounds like mine are correct though as you won't stay on topic or back your position, your assumptions are wrong, can't win em all little stick

thanks, and that's correct, the sd of the typical 7.62x39 is barely deer size game adequate, under .2...the 30-30 with 150 and 170 gr bullets the norm is more than adequate for deer size game with 150's and the 170s take it well into 3rd class game...that's an entirely different level than the 7.62x39, no joke, if big game hunting and the choices is a .30 cal only burning 30 grains...it's 30-30 every day that ends in Y and twice on Sundays

Very few people are going to shoot enough to wear out a 6arc barrel, even at the Hornady bolt action loads of 62k psi. I definitely wouldn’t neuter it just to prolong the life



A lot to unpack here but the key is for decades the gun forums have spouted untrue bullshit. People repeat what they think they know without actually collecting data. I’d take the 6 creed all day and expect approx the same velocity loss per inch between that and the 308. Maybe a little more but not enough to care about.

Foot pounds of energy is meaningless but go for it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

Nothing wrong with the Grendel but your reasons for choosing it over the arc are a little off….

The ARC simply squirts a .620 BC,at a velocity the 264 Grendel can’t even BEGIN to attain,with a BC in the realm. Such facts reliably hurt Tender Feelers and contrived Stupidity. Hint.

With same one simply arranges flatter trajectory,less wind drift,greater impacty velocity and increased Terminal Effects,starting at the muzzle and they never wane. Recoil is reduced to boot. Hint.

Hurt Feeler Reports can’t/won’t change Physics. Hint…………….

I really like the 6.5 grendel... Honestly since you are look at a bolt gun, the Howa mini carbon is really lite... would make a great little package.

Man, I’m starting to feel like I’m picking on you but…. SD has been irrelevant for a long time now. I damn sure wouldn’t factor than in when picking a cartridge.

I have Howie Mini Carbons in 224,243 and 264 Grendel,as well as Gas Passers. Hint.

She’s Pretending aloud and is a CLUELESS Drooling Dumbfhuqk. Hint……..

What size of game have you used the 6MM on? How do the long high BC bullets expand at farther distance with it?

While SD is pretty irrelevant, especially with whitetails….I’m betting the 154gr 7.62x39 SPs have decent SD, if one cares. I’m also fairly certain that given the same case size, the larger bore is generally more efficient for burn, velocity vs projectile weight, and barrel length vs velocity….just as a rule of thumb.

I have never seen a .243” 112gr hit anything larger than Booner Black Bears. Hint.

If only for conversation, wears a .271 SD(moot) and a .620 BC (such things MATTER). Hint.

I rather like them at 1500fps impact velocity. From a 2750fps short barreled 243 Grendel launch, in current atmospherics at the house,that is 1000yds+. Hint.

Just saying………

They do matter, can you buy that off the shelf loaded and ready to go? No, so then wtf are you talking about lol, why not shoot the dasher if you are going custom level top reloading options, you always put 91 octane in your Honda Civic? Weirdo

These discussions to include everyone and be apples to apples have to be factory off the shelf. What section are win here little stick? Don’t you have some .22’s to shoot? Lmao

It’s the other way around, walking you into it lol. Do tell what the winning formula is please?

You Clueless Drooling Google Gals are a hoot! Hint.

I just had 1-7” K&P Dasher spout for my Accuracy International AT hit the porch and it too is slated for 112’s expressly. Hint.

Though if only in “fairness” I shoot them in 6x45,243 Grendel,6 ARC,6 BR,6 XC,Seex Kreed,243 Win,243 AI,6-284 and 6-06. Hint.

You Brokedick Day Dreaming Dumbfhuqks are HILARIOUS! Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!…………

Sure you are. My version of the winning formula is to match bullet construction to impact velocity, put a premium on shot placement, and kill stuff.

I see, well that wins most of time with common bullet choices and cartridges but you are missing that final ingredient and it’s as simple as explaining why they 150 is known as great deer bullet in 30-06 and the 180 is for elk/moose. Penetration depths matter for game intended so you’re just getting lucky with you’re formula. The current best is matching construction with impact velocities FOR GAME INTENDED which means including sd to understand if you’ve got a 14” penetration option or a 36” penetration option. Class dismissed

And yes this automatically assumes we can place the shot as there is no replacement for placement. You still don’t take a 30-06 125 gr psp for Alaskan moose and why that would be better suited to coyotes and wolves. Sd is the answer.

I only have (1) 7-08 which has killed (5) Moose in as many shots ala 120TSX. All exited. SD is fhuqking moot. Hint.

Keep Pretending aloud with your Google,you Amazingly CLUELESS Fhuqk. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!…………

90% sure you’re trolling….

One would think. Otherwise, it’s a lot a bandwidth to tell us he doesn’t understand hunting bullets, without just telling us he doesn’t understand hunting bullets.

because the mono keeps all of its weight means it loses the least amount of sd as compared to typical cup and core designs, bonded rides much closer to mono for these comprehensions, which we're still working on here, careful with those projections

sd and construction and impact velocity for game intended is the formula, just because one happens to choose mostly from adequate choices doesn't mean one actually understands why it works, hint, facking clueless

ever thought about sectional density reduction rate? why does the 120 mono work so good for moose and why didn't you use the 120 ballistic tip? you ready for this little stick?

lol, hang in there, we're just getting into the good stuff, not trolling but I'll take that as a compliment considering this forum's overall politeness lol, class is in

trolling, educating...which one is it? we will find out soon

Your Googlefhuqkery is hilarious,you Magnificently STUPID Fhuqk. Hint…………..

agree with all of this, sd is pretty irrelevant for most options as people are choosing adequate formulas from all the known and common options, but it is so important when you push the boundaries of niche and applications, it explains why bell could kill elephants with 6.5 man licker, and boddington saw 700 nitro knock them out, why a 416 only pokes a hole through a goat while a .270 130 softy absolutely flattens it as if hit by lightning, here's then hint...we shoot variable sd bullets, not many understand this or discuss it, there's no calculators yet to show this yet, sad really because we have taken inflight ballistics to milk jugs at 2 miles but we still end up with complete subjective gong shows on the forums when discussing terminal ballistics, it's because we aren't looking at the right things, we aren't looking at the final bullet, we aren't measure finished sd, we aren't measuring travel, we aren't making it possible to compare all these 'safe knowns' to each other and to niche ends to see what may or may not be a decent choice from a terminal perspective...we're going to get into it good here now with mr rimfirecentral

yes the 154 gr would be much better option for the 7.62x39 and then will run with the 150 30-30...the 30-30 with 170's goes to a completely different level, the 30-30 with it's typical minimum of 150's is already nicely set up for deer size game, you have to chase down an unusually heavy for cal option of the x39 to just get to that level, so imo the x39 is more for volume shooting surplus fun weighted while the 30-30 is 100% hunting weighted options so pick your poison

and agree with, seems to be well observed, that you're more efficient with larger bore/heavier bullets grabbing more burn sooner in the tubes...

and whoever said energy is useless figure to that argument, I agree as we currently understand energy, and I've argued it has no place in choosing formula but as we go deeper into this discussion you'll see that I think there will be a great use for the energy figure in the future of terminal ballistics but we have work to do to get there

there's a thread on 6.5grendelforums about this bullet, guy tested it at varying impact velocities into gel as we were all drooling this was the magic mono for our slow azz cartridge...but sadly it was not, still way too tough and is only going to open up in the first half of the grendel usable ranges as compared to the 123 eldm/sst and other like cup/cores

not bad, I had an early 22" sporter cut down to 18.5", slabbed/fluted the action bolt -3.0 oz, Jefferson hinged bottom (same weight as the factory bottom garbage/mag), and did the stocky's carbon which is a pretty sad cheap carbon with a porous finish, bendy forend, it really cheapens the whole carbon fibre game imo, the stock came in at 18 oz (advertised at 17, maybe that's varmint contour weight?), and bare rifle lands at 4 lb 10.5 oz, a red Ryder BB gun, one hand it like a pistol

but it's a cheap gun, doesn't give the pride of ownership jollies, the barrel and action are ok, the 2-stage trigger is ok on break/adjust but 2-stage feel and cheap stamped safety...cheap, the stock and bottom plastic is Mattel Chinese garbage imo, and the stocky's stock was just lipstick on a pig...single best part of that rifle is the Jefferson hinged bottom metal...I would never do this build again, just money pits, howa...and here's a big kicker, where's the stainless? why other markets not the biggest gun market in the world? at least with a stainless tube etc. one could go down the ultralight sheep build path, timney trigger, something better than stocky's stock and actually maybe end up with one seriously sweet competition to a Kimber lol, and in micro cartridge like grendel to suit....but legacy sports doesn't want to actually do things right, they just want to sell as many cheap money pits as possible, just buy the action I guess, go stainless tube, timney, better than stocky's, and Jefferson...then you'd have a pretty sweet little build...not sure why you can't get that off the shelf, even for more money, Kimber is the closest thing, they do it right...legacy couldn't do it more wrong

why choose the 120 mono for moose vs the 120 ballistic tip stick? are you chicken to get into this?

You are in so far above your crossed-eyes and pointy head,that it’s plum fhuqking Amazing. Hint.

Keep Pretending aloud. Hint……….

I've got a couple 6.5 grendels and one 6 TAC. I've used the grendel to take a pile of deer, pronghorn, a handful of elk, a couple moose. Most with the 120 gold dot or 123 sst. I recently changed to the 120 m looking for a little more violent expansion. So far so good. The 6 TAC is great, but I built a heavy rifle and cutting and forming is a chore. It outperforms the grendel.

I got into these before the 6 ARC came to be and if I had to do it over, I'd have 6 and 22 ARC. That being said, the grendel has done fine and is my most used rifle by far.

I see, well at least you're smart enough to see you aren't as smart as you thought you were and just sticking to insults in hopes the subject will go away. It won't. Maybe you're scrambling to come up with something resembling an argument or answer but I'm betting you'll just carry on this path as you're not ready for this one, I'm sure it's because you've got hundreds of rifles so this discussion is beneath you lol. bock bock bock

Fortunately for you and your ilk,Imagination and Pretend are free,so even YOU can “afford” to “contribute”. Hint.

Pardon wares that exist,as you extoll your very WELL founded Insecurities and fill out Hurt Feeler Reports. Hint………..

I wonder how many times [bleep] was typed out in 57,000+ posts. Ok, no longer curious, carry on.

Crying Karens will always find reasons to Whine and Wonder. Hint……….

You must be talking about the do nothing window licker that only shoots animals in the head off the baitpile. LOL. The campfire hard charger.

When all is said and done, 57,000 posts and not a damn thing productive done. HINT

You forgot to add LAUGHING.

Vicarious “living” is the extent of her “means” and “abilities”. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!…………

My bet was right. I caught him with his pants down on page 3 while he said sd is meaningless and then gave example of 5 moose kills with 5 shots with a 120 gr mono from 7-08 that all exited and when questioned why he didn’t choose 120 ballistic tip he knew they were right around his ankles lol so straight to insults and deflection. I’ve already given the hint as to where this will be headed so he could see the writing on the wall and prepare his answer r counter argument but still just insult and deflect. Who’s better at hinting now? Hint

Anyway stick, go ahead, give us another insult and reason to deflect away from the question and topic you decided to walk into like the god of gods in terminal ballistics. Someone is facking laughing, hint

Your Delusional Drooling Dumbfhuqktitude is hilarious! Hint.

Keep “living” vicariously,as it’s your sole “move”. Hint…………..

Seek and yer shall receive lol

Good job bud, epic projection btw

This lesson was gonna fry yer brain anyway

Anyone else feel free to take that sidetrack topic on

Otherwise back to which x39 based cartridge

Op asked for 200 yard big game hunting. Where the answer is 6.5 Grendel for the win of these 3 choices. Arc makes a sort of close 2nd place.

On SD and bullet construction, think the 7.62x39 is in the running IF you use a mono that's designed to work at those speeds, like the Barnes TSX (tested them at 100 yards, expanding nicely, sadly no freezer filling as used a 100gr TTSX last time. Great job). SD stays nice because it doesn't shed any weight.

But...the Grendel is doing that with quite a bit more punch at distance for sure, and more damage. I can dig it.

Really curious about how people have done with the 115gr as even if it cuts the range of an ELD or SST in half thats still 200+ yards.

lighten up on twiggy, his sister is still in rehab so he has no one to pick his short self up so he can lick the windows of the basement

he got kicked out of rehab, just like all the decent forums he tried his same shtick in. LOL.

The problem with trying to get in the weeds promoting SD, is that you can just say: ‘maintains good weight retention’ and that covers it all. Otherwise, FMJs win on all theoretical SD arguments. It’s still about bullet construction and all sorts of other factors…..For everything related, just use ‘weight retention’, and it’ll be sensible. I’ve got 90gr 6.8 gold dots that I’ve seen penetrate further than 120gr SSTs, and it’s because of weight retention vs expansion…..because SD ‘theory’ says the opposite.

But why not just use the most objective answer sd? Weight retention is a subjective way of saying same thing.

And yes, are gold dots not fusions? Bonded? So I ran accubonds a long time and they worked great but I run slower stuff with eldm type bullets now and get more drt’s and shorter recoveries but I choose a pretty high starting sd because it ensures the depth for game intended while the bullet does way more internal work and gives up more weight...you make that sound like a bad thing? It’s not, it’s actually a great thing but you have to get the formula right for game intended.

You lose sd as you go, the more you lose the more damage happening in critter. Many formulas work. Some like more insurance and poking holes for blood trailing, others like the more drt formulas. If you’re gonna play on the niche end you need to have a really solid handle on this stuff and most objective handle possible.

And yeah the fmj solids examples in Africa teach a lot about the subject. For dangerous game you need impacts at least 2200 with over .3 sd solids or you risk becoming grease spot. You can get there with a 6.5 man licker or 7x57 with the heavy for cal fmj or a 300 gr 375 h/h etc. The 6.5 has better formula than the 700 nitro express. Go math it yourself. There’s a line between the spear and the sledgehammer we play with the 700 nitro went too far to the sledgehammer and can’t reliably get deep enough, not enough sd for velocity or not enough velocity for sd...for game intended. However you wanna see that but you have to add either sd or fps to make it work.

We don’t need to push things to those extremes here as we shoot variable sd bullets. So you wanna dump all the work over 14” or 36”? How much work you wanna dump over that range? That’s where energy will make an arguable measure but we have to understand how it applies over distance traveled inside animal or more accurately per inch of travel. Ie; a 416 on a goat, can likely do 4’ of penetration so x ft/lbs per inch over 48” but goat only 14” wide meaning the hillside gets all the work, but a 130 gr bt from a 270 flattens said goat...more ft/lbs per inch over way less inches, in case of goat getting formula right for game intended. Or somewhere in between? You can match things up very nicely for game intended.

So anything burning 30 grains of powder for big game is niche end. So particular care in bullet choice required. Already this a slow speed cartidge and you’re fighting an uphill battle thinking mono’s or bonded as your already at tail end of performance window as soon as you get 100 yards down range. This screams for squishier bullets, the 6.5 123’s nothing will take those in the ribs at 400 yards, even from a 16” barrel you’re still around 1820 at 420. Bullet behaves like a bonded there, nice big mushrooms and high weight retention, the mono has pathetic bc and needs 2000 fps to think about doing decent work, so where does that land for distance? If you play at niche end you want max efficiency if you want more than 200 yard option. It’s nice that it’s available. Elk and moose in ribs at 400 is a real thing, deer to 658 and antelope at 752 recorded from Grendel 123’s, the 7.62 could never get close to these capabilities, it’s a different level below the Grendel and arc. If 200 is fine then most choices will work. For moose and elk size game I still want .25 sd or higher and enough bullet to shed and work well and not driven too fast to shorten its depth. If you want most efficient and versatile use of 30 grains of powder you go Grendel and 2nd best arc lol. Otherwise I’d go 30-30 over the 7.62. As twiggy says, bullets matter. Always start with bullet, then figure out what case will push it for game intended.

If I am forced to go monos one day I would compensate by going up a full powder class and get 6.5 Creedmoor to keep similar distances with my 123 Grendel. That’s how inefficient monos are. Would not waste time on monos from these little squirrel guns.

I won’t be nearly as windy: No, SD has nothing to do with weight retention or bullet construction or expansion. You just have some belief in BC on a target, re-badged as SD. There’s no ‘formula’ for it. Long for caliber is long for caliber. High BC is high BC. Heavier weight weighs more. Expansion is expansion. Velocity is velocity. Bullet construction varies. Target density varies.

SD? It’s visiting a palm reader.


SD is purely SUBJECTIVE.

EVERY projectile of like diameter and mass,share an IDENTICAL SD “value”,which is more than telling. Hint.

Aero form(BC) is the driver which factors drop,drift and impact velocity most. Not that Brokedick CLUELESS Droolers ain’t a fhuqking hoot,”explaining” her Google. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!……….

take a seat stick you bowed out of this long ago, I'll take it from here

whiskey, you can measure the final sd of a recovered bullet, an actual objective number to work with, you can measure distance travelled once the swimming started...another objective number, you can measure the energy dump along that travel...another objective number...just because we aren't doing that yet doesn't mean it isn't coming, sectional density reduction rate (sdrr) and energy reduction rate (err) should become things one day to help us get away from discussions just like this

try to imagine for a second that we had a terminal ballistics calculator and all the knowns were shot into gel and the sdrr/err factors known at a couple impact velocity points, imagine being able to predict terminal performance as well as we can with inflight performance, we're a little behind considering we're a quarter way through the 21st century lol, but at least nearing turn of century someone went down 'temp wound stretch permanent cavity' route and tried to make a more objective look by looking at actual wounds...it was at least a step in the right direction, but we've completely ignored the bullet, the finished bullet, it has measures, it actually tells the story, the 'rates' at certain impact velocities tell the story of all that temp/perm stretch wound cavity etc. lol

we will get this subject more objective one day and it start with discussions like these, zillions of them, I think I started banging on about what we're missing in about 2020 on Alberta forum, but may as well have it here too, Hornady...offer is still there to have me come develop this out for ya, don't be trying to steal my work

anyway, all the topics on terminal ballistics are mostly palm reading, and most guys choose from the knowns without really understanding or being able to visualize things and they don't have to, but you sure do if you're going to play on the niche end of the spectrum, and it's why I was able to take factory 123 gr grendel for 6 years exclusive on Alberta big game, 7 species, 10-420 wars, average shot distance around 160-165, average recovery distance around 10 yards, and we walked up to everything right after shooting, 20 animals, and only surprises pleasant ones, it is the most efficient choice for burning 30 grains of powder going

so I don't think you're ready to take this much further, you've got a formula that works for you but there's actual numbers behind it that are objective and are doing the work

one day we will have that calculator that will show you exactly why the 35 gr Berger is the top choice for fur guys on coyotes from a .204 ruger, and then everyone else wanting to shoot coyotes for fur can compare or even design new combo's against that formula to make sure they get it right, then one will be able to see why the 700 nitro would knock elephants out but the 6.5 man licker could reach the brain pan and turn out the lights despite some 7000 ft/lbs energy difference lol, or why the 416 goat was just an unimpressive hole vs the .270 win 130 bt lighting....we'd be able to see all the known winners, the 30 cal 180 grainers...and compare every single thing against them, then the rules of thumb would be so much more accurate, we'd know what a 20" combination is, we could plan for a 36-40" combo's for Alaska hunts perhaps, or Africa too, we could go see what our .243 55 gr bt is going to be like on a coyote vs a 35 gr Berger from a .204....and ALL these arguments online would be the same length as the inflight ballistics arguments now....really short discussions

so, since we aren't fully there yet, and we do still shoot variable sd bullets from rapid/maximum variable to slow/minimum variable and we already have our general rules of thumb for class 2 size game of around .2 sd and for class 3 size game .25 sd then those are the numbers to start with, it will allow you to understand why the twigster chose the 120 mono from the 7-08 vs the 120 bt for his 5 1-shot moose kills....see that's pretty niche end of spectrum to go after large AK moose, already starting with minimal bare sd and not a ton of velocity to compensate so you have to keep as much of that sd as possible for widest variety of shot angles, the 120 bt...we can feel that it's going to maybe only go 1/3rd as deep, so we can 'feel' that it would be a ribs only ideal shot opportunity option for big ole moose but the mono will punch through quartering shots and still get far enough, and a calculator looking at the right information would tell us this so stick didn't have to bail out on this conversation, glad you stuck around to find out

so yeah, you definitely want sd in your top 3 considerations for game intended, which are sd, construction, impact velocity.....that's the formula, full stop, it's dynamic subject and we can get off in the weeds discussing expansions or whatever but eventually we will be able to recommend a 30" combo that dumps 100 ft/lbs per inch etc.....the wound channel will be explained by that, the expansion will be explained by that, sd is a mandatory number for what we do

lol…you can measure ANYTHING before and ANYTHING after, but you have no idea what happens in between…..you can GUESS, based on bullet construction, impact velocity, medium, etc….enough to have expectations. We have varying weather, too….bit we don’t call that ‘’Weather Density’, just to plug a cool term that nobody can deduce a value for knowing or caring….without pages of mental gymnastics.

In my head I kinda see it as an integral. The change of SD of a bullet over path, ecompassing all mentioned so far. I don't think theres any constants to take outside of the integral to make it easier/simpler though lol. Limits/boundaries of the integration are zero to wherever it finally stops, of delta mass in pounds over delta diameter squared. Now that takes into account penetration depth, projectile expansion and protectile weight retention lol.

Now theres some overthinking

It’s funnier than fhuqk,how “REAL” her Imagination and Pretend are…to her. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!…………

And that’s what we do, is guess. We don’t measure, why? Too much work for manufacturers? Not enough budget for gel? We should measure it’s time, we can sink bullets into milk jugs at two miles because we have 21st century measures and calculators for inflight ballistics but we’re still in the just throw a 180 out of a 30 cal and yer good terminally...that’s a facking joke to me. Note: If we Google weight retention and sectional density...one of them relates to penetration, so let’s at least use that objective starting point.

And as we see, our own subjective internal interpretations and imagination of terminal ballistics playing out here and every other facking thread. It pains me to see this this far into the 21st while we have inflight down to milk jugs at two miles lol.

I’m doing my part to objectify it as much as possible. We all have our own interpretations from observations etc of what lower and higher sd combined with construction type bullets will do for animals we envision.

But let’s absorb this new perspective for a minute before arguing it. I happily ask for further dialogue, inputs and ideas to objectify things even further.

Been at this awhile though and haven’t seen a better formula yet to predict than sd/construction/impact velocity, for game intended. It’s the most complete and objective we have for a good long while now, we still have to do the imagining of what each choice will actually do to animals. Weight retention is just a more subjective way to explain retained sd (or deeper penetration due to higher sd). It is NOT an irrelevant figure but rather one of the top 3 most essential figures to start your math.

Stick you’re embarrassing yourself, take a seat, this is too much for you.

I use a Grendel Howa mini w/ 23” stainless bbl I chambered for it. I went with modified mono bullets. To offset the reduced velocity I shortened the 120 Etips in a precision collet setup in my lathe and ended up with an 87gr boattail Nosler Etip. These seem to be softer than most monos and also have a larger base plastic tip/hollow point. My impression so far is they have a lower velocity expansion window and out of the Howa and 8208 powder velocity is at 2930 fps. Still haven’t caught one in a deer but they have killed exceptionally well and I see no reason to change yet. I figure these are as good as anything to 300 with a good flat trajectory to boot (to 300). With the solid shank retaining weight it’s the best of both, quick full expansion and plenty of penetration for deer sized game. Anything bigger than whitetail and farther than 300 yards I use more gun.

I misspoke on the velocity, just looked at the box and I have written down 2982 fps…that’s impressive performance out of the little Grendel case IMO and does a good (great) job. No need to look further for me.

88 ELD’s in my 19” Mini Howie Carbon Wueen are fhuqking hammers and CRUSH all things 7.62x39 and 264 Grendel. Hint.

Pardon my simply shooting it all. Hint……….

That’s dedication msalm! Can’t get that off the shelf.

Great cartridge, worthy of all levels of engagement imo.👍

In a 23” tube factory Hornady black 123 eldm with .252 sd will still smash elk/moose in ribs with over 1800 fps at over 500 yards and it's got enough penetration for class 3 game. That's my draw, deer size game are almost too small for this combo. I rarely keep an eldm in deer size game, even out to 420 from a 16" barrel and 1820 fps impact, quartering exits. Need steep quartering and larger bodies to catch things in the offside. Internal damage is average broadside as half the work potential went out the other side, but steep quartering on larger critters its truly amazing.