Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles H 414

I tried the 60 grain deal of H4831, too hot for my Savage 111 .270 at the time, bolt really stiff, got rid of it. I have a Remington 721, and maybe it can take a little more. I don't see any loads with 60 grains. I think they are like maybe 56 57 ?

For years I loaded 60 grains of H4831 and a 130 grain bullet for my Model 700 with no signs of pressure whatsoever. That load dropped whitetails better than anything else I've ever used. The last time I reloaded for my 270, I dropped back to 59.5 grains and didn't see any difference. I like to push cartridges like the 270 to the limit, as that is what they were designed for. Each rifle is different, and every reloader is different, so results can vary.

Same here dead before they hit the ground probably ! They dropped so fast I thought I missed !

Yes, my 270 load with a Nosler 130 BT over 61 gr H4831 is a bit compressed. But it shots well in a Ruger MK II at 3100 fps.

And my 30-06 load with the Hornady 190 btsp at book COAL over 63 gr H4831 in LC brass was a whole lot compressed. It shot three inches at 300 yds from an old Win 670.

Using a vibrator to fit the powder in the case, it was still level with the mouth of the case before seating the bullet. Lots of crunches!



Proof of concept!

I am amazed that none of the gun writers have discovered such a foolproof, quick, and easy method of load development.

Dozens of rifles over the years, with dozens of combinations of bullets, powders, brass, primers, not to mention showing it to quite a few in person, including my two sons, and seeing them all succeed, is pretty solid proof of concept from where I sit.

I don't do many things by accident anymore, and my reloading methods have progressed a lot from making my own dippers, beating bullets into 7x57 cases with a plastic hammer, and believing with all my heart that chasing group size was the holy freaking grail, at age 13 back in '79.

I've stated I don't much care what anyone else does, but if you want to know what I do at my bench I'll tell you with as much detail as I can muster....maybe even sometimes when you really don't want it.

When I see something I know is bullshi t I'll call it and I'll make no apologies telling you why. But you won't see me run my mouth outside the scope of what I've seen and done myself, like a lot around here do.

I've never worshipped gun writers. Hardly have ever read any of them. Probably because for the longest time most anything they did was too far above my pay grade to even worry about. I dunno, maybe if I had I'd still be stuck shooting groups and burning off barrel life with the rest y'all.

In a nutshell it's a ladder test, without 300 yards and wind, nothing less, nothing more. New lots are retested from the bottom up to be safe and adjustments are made if necessary.

Harmonics are addressed in the second phase to close up groups. Nothing more than most serious handloaders do, except without all the unneccesarily wasted components to get there.

For example from Nosler #8, the 7-08 with a 150 and H4350 shows a max load of 44.5 gr @99 % load density and 2692 fps.

I think that meets your load parameters.

It also shows 40.5 gr as a minimum load at 2442 fps. That gives us a 4 gr spread in powder charge to produce 250 fps increase in velocity. Or 12.5 fps for each subsequent .2 gr increase in powder charge.

For a graph to be statistically relevant with one shot at each charge weight, you would have to have charges with 1 fps ES.

If your load has ES of 10 fps for instance, load number eight might be 5 fps fast, at the edge of its envelope, while load number 10 might be 5 fps slow. This would present as a "node" around load number 9.

Thus the suggestion for more data points.

It is safe to say, you are producing more "noise" than data with your stated procedure.

I don't know about you, but I am pretty happy if I can produce loads with an ES of 30. Heck you will see more than 30 fps increase in velocity through a string just due to increasing barrel temperature. A cold barrel is a heat sink which sucks heat from the combustion of powder, reduces pressure, and reduces velocity.

It is not just a theory. Denton applied the Pressure Trace sensors, froze the barrels, and ran the data a few years ago.

Idaho Shooter


I can agree with that.. I knew a guy who got frustrated over his 338 Win Mag not shooting that well, and got angry and began to fire one after another, the hotter that barrel got the better it shot to a point anyway. It depends on rifle and caliber.

BLC2=W748
H110=W296

Nope, we aren't speaking the same language. Close, but not the same.

Nope, the Nosler "load" is a max charge weight, I'm going to be a little below that.

Repeating: it's a ladder test.

Repeating: I use .2 grain increments with small capacity cases, and .3 grain with large. What I'm looking for covers a span of only 3/4 or 1 grain of increasing charge weights.

A statistical graph isn't part if it, beyond looking at how velocities increase as pressures go up, in a list.

Barrel heat is addressed, just like I would do shooting at paper, at 300 yards. I allow cooling between shots. I also don't do load development below 30 degrees, or above 60. I did mention somewhere above that patience is required. But even still, the eventual load would tolerate barrel heat produced by 10 to 12 rounds across the span of a 90 second time limit.

30 ES is just terrible.

Any calibers that 414/760 are favorites for? I have a couple pounds that need to be burned up. I saw JamesJr’s post above.

Thanks.

Frank

I have used W760 a lot. 45 grains of 760 and the 85 grain Sierra BTHP has been my favorite load in the 243, and it's worked in every rifle I've tried it in. I also use it in other bullets for the 243. It gave very good results in a 6.5 Creedmoor I tried it in, as well as a 7-08 and 7X57. It worked well in a 17 Rem, and I believe I also used in a 22-250. It'll work in a lot of different cartridges.

Great load for my 30-06 180 SST. Wish it was stable though.

But, let's look at your nosler load.

Firstly, you're assuming an equal linear increase in velocity with each .2 grains of charge increase. It never works that way in real life.

4 grains of published data between min and max is a good thing. Lots of room to work with.

My requirements are in the upper 3rd of that data, somewhere.

Listing the initial charge weights I would test. I know from previous experience max won't be part of it, so I would look to end the test around 44.3ish. No reasonable need for me to shoot above that.

44.3
44.1
43.9
43.7
43.5
43.3
43.1
42.9
42.7
42.5

That's 10 rounds, and almost 2 grains of increasing charge weights. Perfect.

These numbers are hypothetical, I've never loaded for a 7-08 that I can recall, so they're only based on patterns I've seen time and time again with other cartridges.

Velocity results:
44.3 2670
44.1 2640
43.9 2630
(43.8 2620 top)
43.7 2616
43.5 2610 middle
43.3 2605
43.1 2600 bottom
42.9 2590
42.7 2570
42.5 2560

When I look at those numbers I see a scatter node trying to end around 42.9 or 43.0. Then, the accuracy node I'm looking for begins around 43.1 with 2600 and goes probably to 43.8 with a velocity probably around 2620. Then the last scatter node that exists (before excess pressure begins somewhere above max) begins at 43.9.

So to capitalize on this I would probably retest, since I can't see it exactly in the initial test, 43.0 to 43.9 in .1 grain increments. Only to nail down the exact beginning and the exact end of the accuracy node.

But, if I was in a hurry and based on previous experiences, I could just pick 43.5 grains and go from there as my "load". That's the middle of a 3/4 grain span of pressures that produce very close velocities, and thus will produce very close points of impact down range. The upper part of a standard ladder test shot without a chrono before pressure signs.

You're talking about approx. a 20 fps ES across those charge weights. 10 above middle, and 10 below. That's the built in tolerance I've spoke of earlier. Differing pressures, similar points of impact.

Load 43.5, adjust seating depth to close groups, confirm at distance, true BC, twist turrets.

When you shoot THAT hypothetical load in THAT hypothetical rifle, there's a high probability of single digit ES and SD with a single charge weight of 43.5 gr. Good load.

As seasons change the velocities will shift a little but the pattern itself won't alter. Colder temps, expect a lower POI. Higher temps, expect a higher POI. "Accuracy" though, is normally unaffected because you're not dramatically changing the dynamics of the harmonics or changing the seating depth.

Lot # changes or a barrel change could shift that middle charge weight a tenth or three one way or the other. Retest, adjust if necessary.

People who test in half grain increments and go by group size skip right over this stuff while they burn up their barrel. Most not even knowing what's there.

If speed and the flatest trajectory possible are your measures of success this isn't for you. But if you want steady as you go predictable precision that takes the sting out of a host of variables, then this is one way to find it.

Check your zero, make good wind calls.

It's the bomb in the 7mm Mauser (7x57) with 120-140 grn bullets... no pun intended...

Feral American,

Have been following this thread for a while and so far refrained from commenting, even though you (and some other posters) don't understand some basics of smokeless powder productions.

But couldn't help myself with this comment of yours: "As seasons change the velocities will shift a little but the pattern itself won't alter. Colder temps, expect a lower POI. Higher temps, expect a higher POI. "Accuracy" though, is normally unaffected because you're not dramatically changing the dynamics of the harmonics or changing the seating depth."

I have done considerable testing of handloads with various powders from zero to 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and POI does NOT necessarily differ only vertically in different temperatures. It can also vary considerably horizontally as well. As an example, one of the loads I tested moved to the right three inches when shot at zero F. after being zeroed at 70 degrees. This was in a rifle with a relatively heavy sporter barrel.

Then there's the statistical problem with shooting a velocity ladder with one sample at each charge weight.

No absolutes

An example of one load in one rifle with one powder, one bullet, one primer, one brass, one method of development, etc, etc. No?

How did you arrive at your load?

What are your criteria for load development?

If you say you had a load shift laterally 3 inches, let's figure out why. Figuring that out can only help everyone, unless it's just to nitpick my method. I'd like to know because it's nothing I've seen, yet.

I used the word "expect", as in the context of normally.

Did you expect the 3 inch lateral shift? I highly doubt it.

It would cause me pause too.

0 to 70 is quite a shift. I'd not only be looking at the load, but the rifle too.

And me.

Zero degrees is pretty cold, and 70 is pretty comfy. Was it ME at zero degrees, or something about my shooting form 70 degrees colder that caused the shift? I'd hafta rule out everything else before I blamed just the load.

Statisticians are no less annoying than gun writers.

No offense intended, just an observation.

Whether you're annoyed by it or not, the simple fact is measured velocity for a given charge weight is a random variable with a non-zero variance. There's no getting around that.