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What range of temperatures do you test loads in? The temperatures this load was tested in during the shift were 70 and zero F.

I have used all sorts of methods to develop loads, including some versions similar to yours.

What I have noticed, consistently, over the past three decades since I started seriously testing differences in ammo (both factory and handloads) is the more difference in velocity between 70 and zero, the more likelihood of variations in point of impact.

No, I did not expect the 3-inch change in POI, but also didn't expect the nearly 200 fps difference in muzzle velocity between 70 and zero.

Have seen up to a 1-1/2" difference in POI at 100 yards, with far less difference in muzzle velocity--and no, it hasn't always been vertical--though sometimes it's a combination of vertical and horizontal.

And that’s why l check zero shortly before l go hunting

First of all I'll say this, it's your problem and yours alone at zero degrees. Unless it's deer season and I'm dialing in on a monster, or the redcoats are coming, I'm probably not going to be much involved with shooting anything at zero degrees. It's not a normal occurrence here, and when it does happen, I'm plenty fine to just sit my happy ass by the fire and wait a day or three for it to pass. I really don't care a lick what any load will do 32 degrees below freezing.

I try to develope a new load (new rifle, new barrel, new powder, new bullet, etc) in the 30 to 60 degree range, more towards the 60 mark than not. That's a more level playing field than too cold, or too hot. When I was shooting PRS I was keeping velocity data for three temp ranges. 0 to 30, 30 to 60, and 60 to 90, and the reason for that is the narrower the field a ballistics calculator looks at, the more refined the output it gives. If you're shooting at 10 or 15 degrees you don't want it trying to factor in 85 or 90.

I was going to ask you if you chronographed your 3" lateral shift. My question with that is, where was your ES compared to 70 degrees? And, did your groups hold together or did they fly apart?

Another question I have is, can you without a doubt absolutely rule out wind in your testing. That may sound like a stupid redundant question but you must have one a hell of a place to shoot so much testing so often over so long a period of time to be so definitive in your conclusions. I wait sometimes weeks here for a day with no wind, and that's on a range that can see 4 or 5 wind directions at the same time out to 1175.

If you shoot a Dan Newberry OCW round robin test you see, IIRC, a slight clockwise rotation from points lower to points higher with groups. So yeah, you might be seeing some of what that shows, whatever degree it may be under the circumstances. I always found that interesting when I shot that type of test but it was never enough to get worked up about. Just like my current method. Once locked into the right pressure range, there's not much if any lateral shift.

Look, I checked zero often throughout the year, the day before every match, and that would include a few over the chrono to double check the velocity inputs. Occasionally I would check zero the day of also, prior to the match, if the venue was allowing it. If I had any lateral movement it wasn't significant enough to worry about. My groups stayed consistent, and my elevations tracked with my ballistics calculator. That's all I needed from the rifle.

What charge weight increments do you hang your hat on when developing a load? And what makes you settle on a load? Just curious.

Awww. Look at you princess....sucking up to the gun writer.

So.......adorable.

'nuff said!

[/quote]=Feral_American]First of all I'll say this, it's your problem and yours alone at zero degrees. Unless it's deer season and I'm dialing in on a monster, or the redcoats are coming, I'm probably not going to be much involved with shooting anything at zero degrees. It's not a normal occurrence here, and when it does happen, I'm plenty fine to just sit my happy ass by the fire and wait a day or three for it to pass. I really don't care a lick what any load will do 32 degrees below freezing.

I try to develope a new load (new rifle, new barrel, new powder, new bullet, etc) in the 30 to 60 degree range, more towards the 60 mark than not. That's a more level playing field than too cold, or too hot. When I was shooting PRS I was keeping velocity data for three temp ranges. 0 to 30, 30 to 60, and 60 to 90, and the reason for that is the narrower the field a ballistics calculator looks at, the more refined the output it gives. If you're shooting at 10 or 15 degrees you don't want it trying to factor in 85 or 90.

I was going to ask you if you chronographed your 3" lateral shift. My question with that is, where was your ES compared to 70 degrees? And, did your groups hold together or did they fly apart?

Another question I have is, can you without a doubt absolutely rule out wind in your testing. That may sound like a stupid redundant question but you must have one a hell of a place to shoot so much testing so often over so long a period of time to be so definitive in your conclusions. I wait sometimes weeks here for a day with no wind, and that's on a range that can see 4 or 5 wind directions at the same time out to 1175.

If you shoot a Dan Newberry OCW round robin test you see, IIRC, a slight clockwise rotation from points lower to points higher with groups. So yeah, you might be seeing some of what that shows, whatever degree it may be under the circumstances. I always found that interesting when I shot that type of test but it was never enough to get worked up about. Just like my current method. Once locked into the right pressure range, there's not much if any lateral shift.

Look, I checked zero often throughout the year, the day before every match, and that would include a few over the chrono to double check the velocity inputs. Occasionally I would check zero the day of also, prior to the match, if the venue was allowing it. If I had any lateral movement it wasn't significant enough to worry about. My groups stayed consistent, and my elevations tracked with my ballistics calculator. That's all I needed from the rifle.

What charge weight increments do you hang your hat on when developing a load? And what makes you settle on a load? Just curious.[/quote]




So you don’t develop loads at cold temps?

You're trying SO HARD to make a point, any point, to be some sort of relevant here.

And no, I don't. I have no need to. I find that load development is best done when temps are not that cold, and not too hot either. That doesn't mean I don't shoot at colder temps to check zero and velocity. Clearly stated in a post above. You must have missed it, or miscomprehended it, or skipped it entirely, as per usual.

Oh, and PLEASE figure out how to quote a post on this site. Your keyboard driving skills are nothing short of embarrassing.

Oh wow, but you just love to make people believe about temperatures you don’t deal with you friggin hypocrite!!

You really are a special kind of stupid.

Statistics can be manipulated to reflect any outcome desired. That's no news flash, that's common knowledge.

Gun writers (some driven by statistics) are all to often too wrapped up in 30 or so years of their own "findings" to be open to something that dares to possibly contradict them. We may very well see that here.

What's your own explanation for a 3 inch lateral shift with a 70 degree temp swing?

Go take a reading comprehension class and get back to us.

A sunburned scalp that effects your pee brain you dumb twit. Statistics is primarily opinion son. The atmosphere changes constantly without you knowing it, that’s common knowledge dip sh it. That why you win some you loose some competing. maybe someday you’ll learn that.

Do yourself a favor dude and just let John Barsness prove me wrong. Your doing a horrid job of it. Put the crack pipe down and go to sleep, it looks like you've been up all night just to post more retarded shi t the minute I come on line.

Something you haven’t actually done but think you’re an authority on it you friggin bum. Pecker heads like you always get exposed sooner or later.

Thanks you Mule Deer for coming in on this. I'll trust your thoughts over a poster who's only been here for a month and a half.

Think about what you're doing here dude.

Why on fuc king earth would I go through the bother and expense to DEVELOP a load at 0 degrees when I can make a load developed at 60 degrees work just fine at zero? On the very rare occasion I would shoot at that temp? Simply by switching inputs already previously confirmed via chronograph at that temp? And checking zero?

That's not hypocrisy, you blithering nitwit, that's efficiency, and it's kinda the point of my method.

If you want to be a part of an adult conversation here then step the fu ck up and BE an adult.

Oh we're GONNA drill down on a few things here.

Your explanation of a 3 inch lateral shift with a 70 degree temp swing?

blaah blah blah blaah blaah blah....ah checking zero with the SAME powder sounds like an easier explanation then all other other BS you spew out !!

I find it exponentially humorous to see people here trip over themselves to denounce the principles of a load development system that's been around for a LONG time.

Scroll down and pay attention to the writing about the Berger 77 OTM and Varget vs H4895. It may clear things up for you. There's pictures, so here's hoping for the best.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/07/13/creighton-audette-ladder-testing/

BLAAAAAAH BLAAAAAH BLAAAAAHHH !!! Cerebral dweeb

Is Feral American really LFC? Sure sounds like him.