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Would anyone know approx. what velocity 97 grains H4350 will get with a 500gn projectile from 25" .450 Dakota/Rigby? 105 gns H4350 gets me 2300 fps and I want a practice load at 2000-2100 fps with 500's. Thank you.

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That is a very light load for that powder and bullet weight.
I would recommend changing to Varget or 4064 if you plan on loads under 100grains, then your velocity goals are more easily attained.


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Your on your own with this one.
Light loads under 100 grains using AR2209/H4350 is not recommended by the manufacturer where a minimum charge of 108 grains is the recommended starting load.

You have been advised to use a faster powder, that is all that can be recommended.

Last edited by AussieGunWriter; 10/26/23.

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I do have Varget and H4895. I know H4895 should work ok with reduced loads around 2000-2100. Just don't know how much Varget or H4895 to use either. Note: The .450 Dakota/Rigby cases are marginally smaller by about 5 grains than the .460 Weatherby case. Also 105gns H4350 with 500's works superbly at 2300 fps.

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Don't know if this will help you to start your reduced loads with H-4895, but I use 60.0 grains of it with Berry's 350 grain plated RNs for about 1740 fps MV from my Ruger RSM 23" bbl 450 Rigby.

This is Hogdon's guidance on the use of H-4895 for reduced loads in rifle cartridges.

I also use Trail Boss 27 gns for MV = 1320 fps (case capacity to base of seated 350 gn bullet = 37 gns).

For reference only, my hunting load is RL-17 102 gns vel @ 5 yds = 2380 fps with a CEB BBW#13 500 gn Safari Solid FP.

Given that my bbl is a couple of inches shorter than yours and IME H-4350 and RL-17 yield similar MVs with similar powder charges and bullets in high volume cases like the 450 Rigby Rimless, it seems my rifle is generating higher chamber pressures than yours. Only mentioning it to help compare possible starting loads.


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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
Don't know if this will help you to start your reduced loads with H-4895, but I use 60.0 grains of it with Berry's 350 grain plated RNs for about 1740 fps MV from my Ruger RSM 23" bbl 450 Rigby.

This is Hogdon's guidance on the use of H-4895 for reduced loads in rifle cartridges.

I also use Trail Boss 27 gns for MV = 1320 fps (case capacity to base of seated 350 gn bullet = 37 gns).

For reference only, my hunting load is RL-17 102 gns vel @ 5 yds = 2380 fps with a CEB BBW#13 500 gn Safari Solid FP.

Given that my bbl is a couple of inches shorter than yours and IME H-4350 and RL-17 yield similar MVs with similar powder charges and bullets in high volume cases like the 450 Rigby Rimless, it seems my rifle is generating higher chamber pressures than yours. Only mentioning it to help compare possible starting loads.
It might be that your solids generate more pressure, if they are not a slightly smaller diameter. I am aware of the 60% rule with H4895. I load R17, in 2 other rifles and find it gives higher velocities than a similar weight charge of H4350. But there is no way I'd use it on a rifle I'd take to Africa where temps may be near 100 degrees.

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RL-17 works just fine in Southern Africa. BTW have you taken a rifle loaded with RL-17 to Africa?

You’re right that it produces higher velocity than H-4350 but not much.

You’re free to disregard my input if irrelevant to your question. Just trying to provide some info. YMMV

No dog in this fight on my part.

Last edited by Wildcatter264; 10/26/23. Reason: Added a question for OP

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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
RL-17 works just fine in Southern Africa. You’re right that it produces higher velocity than H-4350 but not much.

You’re free to disregard my input if irrelevant to your question. Just trying to provide some info. YMMV

No dog in this fight on my part.
There's no "fight" whatsoever. Temperatures regularly get over 100 even in countries south of equatorial Africa, where one may hunt buffalo for example. I'm just giving you input also, which you're free to disregard. Attempts to assist are appreciated, but so far, no one has given input to the question that is on point, which I understand, as it is unlikely that anyone actually knows.

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Originally Posted by Riflehunter
I do have Varget and H4895. I know H4895 should work ok with reduced loads around 2000-2100. Just don't know how much Varget or H4895 to use either. Note: The .450 Dakota/Rigby cases are marginally smaller by about 5 grains than the .460 Weatherby case. Also 105gns H4350 with 500's works superbly at 2300 fps.

Regarding H4895, The manufacturer of Mulwex AR2206H recommends a starting load of 95 grains for the .460 case and as you are using a case a few grains lighter in capacity, it's not excess pressure you have to contend with, with light charges, its the no man's land of using a powder not for its intended purpose. Erratic ignition, hangfires etc.

If you want to try Varget/AR2208, Around 85 grains will meet your goal.

Good luck with it.

Last edited by AussieGunWriter; 10/26/23.

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Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
I do have Varget and H4895. I know H4895 should work ok with reduced loads around 2000-2100. Just don't know how much Varget or H4895 to use either. Note: The .450 Dakota/Rigby cases are marginally smaller by about 5 grains than the .460 Weatherby case. Also 105gns H4350 with 500's works superbly at 2300 fps.

Regarding H4895, The manufacturer of Mulwex AR2206H recommends a starting load of 95 grains for the .460 case and as you are using a case a few grains lighter in capacity, it's not excess pressure you have to contend with, with light charges, its the no man's land of using a powder not for its intended purpose. Erratic ignition, hangfires etc.

If you want to try Varget/AR2208, Around 85 grains will meet your goal.

Good luck with it.
With the H4895 load of 95 grains in the .460 case, that is listed as giving 2314 fps, and I would think would give even more fps in a smaller case with less freebore. That's well over my goal of 2000-2100 fps with a 500 for a practice load that is relatively light on scopes, stocks, screws etc. I would think perhaps 85 grains of H4895 might work though. With Varget and the 85 grain load, which should give the desired velocity, do you know whether that may give the hangfires? I thought H4895 might be better than Varget from the perspective of hangfires/secondary explosions etc.

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I have suggested AR 2008/Varget which I have used in the .460 case. It will develop just over 2000fps using the 500gn bullet.

In your slightly smaller Rigby case, the load will not be excessive, but will likely be a little faster. Because the manufacturer recommends a minimum load exceeding your requirements for H4895, I would not recommend its use.

I have interchanged IMR 4064 and AR 2208 load for load with velocities near identical weight for weight


What I don't underatand is why you are wanting a 500gn bullet for a reduced load when there are 350gn and 450gn Barnes TSX and other brand options in 400gn and 450gn weight which would offer more with less recoil.


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Thanks for the info. I will try the Varget load of 85 grains. I have lots of 500 gn projectiles and want only a slight reduction in recoil mainly so I don't break anything such as scope or stock.

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Good discussion above.
I have measured my 450 Dakota gross water capacity at 138.8 grains, call it 139 rounded off.
The 460 WbyMag was 141 grains H2O rounded.
450 NE 3-1/4" was 129 grains H2O rounded.

Graeme Wright load data for the 450 NE 3-1/4" ought to be good in the 450 Dakota
as long as you add filler for that extra 10 grains of space.
His bullets were 480-grainers and the 450 NE has about zero throat.
Plenty of pressure easing in the 450 Dakota extra case capacity and modern throat:
0.300" length of 0.4590" diameter parallel-sided free-bore then 1*30' leade.
OK to go ahead and use 500-grainers in the 450 Dakota,
with Wright's 480-gr data for the 450 NE 3.25" with 26" barrels, F215 primer:

H4350 92.0 gr >>> 2125 fps
H4831sc 98 gr >>> 2000 fps

No fillers for the above, but I would pack it with foam wad or Dacron if used in the 450 Dakota.
You would probably get about same velocity with 500-grainers, or a little slower.

My load results with 25"-barreled 450 Dakota, Norma-made brass (measured H2O above), and F215 primer:

105.0 gr H4350 (no filler)
500-gr TSX >>> 2302 fps
Very like you got, but I switched to lighter bullet for ease on my walnut stock:

86.0 gr RL-15 and 5 grains Dacron filler (a traditional double rifle stylish load):
450-gr North Fork FP solid >>> 2279 fps
450-gr TSX >>> 2245 fps

100.0 gr RL-15 (no filler)
450-gr North Fork FP solid >>> 2594 fps
450-gr TSX >>> 2554 fps

Then I swithced to VARGET for temperature stability, no filler loads,
all with the 450-gr North Fork FP solids:
95.0 gr >>> 2412 fps
96.0 gr >>> 2440 fps
97.0 gr >>> 2475 fps
98.0 gr >>> 2493 fps
99.0 gr >>> 2520 fps

Those are all 5-yard chrono results, not corrected to MV, all are just 3-shot averages.

Then I realized, BY GOLLY !!!
I can do that with the .458 WM+.
And it is easy to load to slower velocity with the smaller case,
but I can still get the 450-grainers up to 2500 fps,
or 500-grainers up to 2300 fps.
The 450 Dakota does have its charm though.


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I did check with the powder manufacturer (so as to get a second opinion on the advice I received as any sensible person would do in such a situation), regarding reduced loads of 2000-2100 fps with .460 Weatherby (because they had no reduced load data for .450 Dakota). I asked whether 85 grains of Varget or 85 grains of H4895 would be best with 500's in .460 Weatherby. They replied to use 85 grains of H4895 with 500's because of the testing they had done with reduced loads for that powder and the 60% rule. So, although I said yesterday that I would use Varget, upon further advice from the manufacturer, I will use 85 grains H4895 with 500's.

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Very sensible, easier with no use of filler required,
though filler would probably make the reduced load in the 450 Dakota more uniform and accurate.
Please let us know what you get.
My 450 Dakota rifle seems to be the ballistic twin of yours.
You will save me some work.

I have used H4895 for the full spectrum in the .458 WM+.
85.0 grains is near max with a 400-grainer, heh-heh-heh.

105.0 grains is an old max load with H4895 and 500-grainer in the 460 WbyMag, 2478 fps.
95.0 grains, 2314 fps.
On that extrapolation 85.0 grains = 2150 fps.
60% of 105 is 63.0 grains minimum load for no filler.
Continuing the extrapolation,
75.0 grains might be just under 2000 fps.


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I know you love the .458 Win and I have used the .450 a lot, but if I was able to get properly head stamped brass (because of international travel) and was doing it all again, I would use a blown out 2.5 inch long .404 Jeffery case necked up to .458.

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Originally Posted by Riflehunter
I know you love the .458 Win and I have used the .450 a lot, but if I was able to get properly head stamped brass (because of international travel) and was doing it all again, I would use a blown out 2.5 inch long .404 Jeffery case necked up to .458.
A la .450 Vincent Short & G&A, etc.
I have seen Mr. Vincent toting one of those in Tanzania.
It worked well.
Cool.
I have fiddled with the .458/.416 Ruger, that is at least partially correct on the headstamp,
so would be your .458/404 Jeffery 2.5".


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Originally Posted by Riflehunter
I know you love the .458 Win and I have used the .450 a lot, but if I was able to get properly head stamped brass (because of international travel) and was doing it all again, I would use a blown out 2.5 inch long .404 Jeffery case necked up to .458.

Might as well use the 404 case at 2.8” in 458, the 460 G&A. Duplicates 450 Rigby ballistics - 500 grain solid at 2400 fps - with 12-15 grains less powder. Fits very well in a Win M-70 with 3.6” magazine box. An advantage is that 4 cartridges fit in a modified magazine box which still fits flush with the stock and the 1-piece bottom metal.

I like my 450 Rigby in the Ruger RSM, but the Win M-70 460 G&A is somewhat handier.

Hard to choose which one to take on a hunt.

Last edited by Wildcatter264; 10/30/23.

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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
I know you love the .458 Win and I have used the .450 a lot, but if I was able to get properly head stamped brass (because of international travel) and was doing it all again, I would use a blown out 2.5 inch long .404 Jeffery case necked up to .458.

Might as well use the 404 case at 2.8” in 458, the 460 G&A. Duplicates 450 Rigby ballistics - 500 grain solid at 2400 fps - with 12-15 grains less powder. Fits very well in a Win M-70 with 3.6” magazine box. An advantage is that 4 cartridges fit in a modified magazine box which still fits flush with the stock and the 1-piece bottom metal.

I like my 450 Rigby in the Ruger RSM, but the Win M-70 460 G&A is somewhat handier.

Hard to choose which one to take on a hunt.
I would build it on a standard length action so that's why I would want a 2.5" case length, possibly 23" barrel, prefer velocity right at 2300 fps with a 500 grain softpoint, with an empty weight with scope at 10 lbs.

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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
Don't know if this will help you to start your reduced loads with H-4895, but I use 60.0 grains of it with Berry's 350 grain plated RNs for about 1740 fps MV from my Ruger RSM 23" bbl 450 Rigby.

This is Hogdon's guidance on the use of H-4895 for reduced loads in rifle cartridges.

I also use Trail Boss 27 gns for MV = 1320 fps (case capacity to base of seated 350 gn bullet = 37 gns).

For reference only, my hunting load is RL-17 102 gns vel @ 5 yds = 2380 fps with a CEB BBW#13 500 gn Safari Solid FP.

Given that my bbl is a couple of inches shorter than yours and IME H-4350 and RL-17 yield similar MVs with similar powder charges and bullets in high volume cases like the 450 Rigby Rimless, it seems my rifle is generating higher chamber pressures than yours. Only mentioning it to help compare possible starting loads.

But RL-17 produces more energy than H4350 being a double-base powder (more nitroglycerin), though burn rate is listed as similar. That needs consideration.

Bob
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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Very sensible, easier with no use of filler required,
though filler would probably make the reduced load in the 450 Dakota more uniform and accurate.
Please let us know what you get.
My 450 Dakota rifle seems to be the ballistic twin of yours.
You will save me some work.

I have used H4895 for the full spectrum in the .458 WM+.
85.0 grains is near max with a 400-grainer, heh-heh-heh.

105.0 grains is an old max load with H4895 and 500-grainer in the 460 WbyMag, 2478 fps.
95.0 grains, 2314 fps.
On that extrapolation 85.0 grains = 2150 fps.
60% of 105 is 63.0 grains minimum load for no filler.
Continuing the extrapolation,
75.0 grains might be just under 2000 fps.


Hello Riflecrank,
I just chronographed the .450 reduced loads using H4895 as discussed. At the muzzle (with my new Garmin) with a cold, clean barrel with 78 grains of H4895 and 500 grain Woodleigh I obtained: 1929, 1904, 2018, 1964 and 2062 fps to give an average of 1976 fps out of the 25" barrel with Federal Mag 215 primers. This was a very pleasant mild load. I will measure 83 grains H4895 next session and hope that is around 2100 fps, and if so, that will be my practice load.

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RH,

Good info on the H4895 loads for the 450 Rigby. Have you considered using standard large rifle primers? I use CCI 200s in my 460 G&A H4895 practice loads with 350 grain bullets, saving the Fed 215s for full power hunting loads in it and the 450 Rigby.

Just a thought based on the current primer price situation.


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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
RH,

Good info on the H4895 loads for the 450 Rigby. Have you considered using standard large rifle primers? I use CCI 200s in my 460 G&A H4895 practice loads with 350 grain bullets, saving the Fed 215s for full power hunting loads in it and the 450 Rigby.

Just a thought based on the current primer price situation.
I haven't thought of using standard large rifle primers, but I have some Remington Magnum primers that I want to use up (not that there's anything wrong with the Remington Magnum primers). I will substitute those in my practice loads and use the Federal Magnum primers for my hunting load which is 105 grains H4350 with the 500 grain RNSN Woodleigh at 2300 fps. It really is a joy shooting the reduced loads.

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Yes, really good info on the H4895 for the .450 Dakota.
I will make notes and expect same in my rifle.

I bet a foam wad plug (sliced from a roll of caulk backer) would uniform the velocities of reduced loads with H4895,
even though not necessary.
Accuracy might be better and a few fps higher for same charges than without filler.

I now have a wild hair for building a .450 Dakota with a .458 WinMag throat and a 1:16" twist.
It will be called the .458 WMD.

In outdated experience by me,
Remington primer cups were too hard.
Good idea to use them for practice loads.
I quit using them long ago.


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As I mentioned previously, I think the very best .458 caliber cartridge would be based on a 2.5" .404 Jeffery case (with dimension changes) and throated with your favorite .458 Win Mag throat. Built to weigh 10 lbs inclusive of scope on a standard length action...maybe even a Ruger, but have an extended mag to hold 4 rounds, 22" barrel. But I would only do it with properly head stamped brass. Once the recoil gets to around 2300 fps with a 500...that's about my limit for recoil, so the extra capacity of the Rigby sized cases is almost wasted on me. (Don't think I would be good with a .577 and 750's).

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That’s a good plan, RH. The MK2 Ruger Hawkeye can easily be modified - mostly modifying the bolt stop - to fit a longer magazine box which fits COAL up to 3.6”.

If you decide to open the magazine box recess laterally - especially on a good aftermarket synthetic or wood stock - it will accommodate a 4th 404 Jeffery case even at 2.8”. That’s the 460 G&A while the 2.5” case would be the short version of same.

MV= 2300 fps is easily achievable with the std 460 G&A version, but as the rifle gets near or below 10 lbs, recoil will demand your attention for fast follow up shots. My preference is to add weight to the buttstock and carry the ‘extra’ 3/4-1 lb over the shoulder than have a lighter DGR and get hammered enough to slow down the 2nd and subsequent shots. YMMV


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OK, ya'll have clarified my thinking.

The idea of the .458 Watts Express 2.7" on the H&H case is no more.

I will just stick with the .458/.338 Lapua Magnum 2.7" with SAAMI Winchester Magnum throat tacked onto 2.7" case,
to be used in a 3.6" magazine length,
like a Winchester M70 with drop belly stock and magazine.

I already have that wildcat built on a CZ 550 Magnum.

[Linked Image]

I need to do it on the Winchester M70 like my .500/.338 LM was done.

[Linked Image]

The great new development is to call it the ".458 Winchester Magnum Lapua"
abbreviated .458 WML.
Thus honoring the throating of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, the real performance enhancer.

Ditto the .458 Winchester Magnum Dakota 2.913" on a BRNO ZKK 602.
Maybe I better call that the .450 Dakota Winchester Magnum, for headstamp purposes: .450 DWM
Honoring the .458 WM throat.

[Linked Image]


These things make the most sense for equivalent nose room in the mag box amongst all three lengths:

2.5" case in a 3.4" box
2.7" case in a 3.6" box
2.9" case in a 3.8" box.

As you see, the 2,8" .458 Lott in a 3.6" box is just all screwed up.

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
That’s a good plan, RH. The MK2 Ruger Hawkeye can easily be modified - mostly modifying the bolt stop - to fit a longer magazine box which fits COAL up to 3.6”.

If you decide to open the magazine box recess laterally - especially on a good aftermarket synthetic or wood stock - it will accommodate a 4th 404 Jeffery case even at 2.8”. That’s the 460 G&A while the 2.5” case would be the short version of same.

MV= 2300 fps is easily achievable with the std 460 G&A version, but as the rifle gets near or below 10 lbs, recoil will demand your attention for fast follow up shots. My preference is to add weight to the buttstock and carry the ‘extra’ 3/4-1 lb over the shoulder than have a lighter DGR and get hammered enough to slow down the 2nd and subsequent shots. YMMV
I noticed that B & C now make a Medalist stock (with the aluminum bedding block) for the Ruger which would be my choice as stock after putting one on a Model 70 that split its wood stock. That would mean extending the magazine down rather than laterally to hold 4 rounds because of the aluminum block. I would prefer the chrome moly action (smoothness) cerakoted graphite black rather than the stainless action and put a stainless barrel on cerakoted a dark grey (so scratches don't show as much as with black). I'd have more steel around the barrel to gain weight, to reduce muzzle rise, rather than the butt. I'm running 10 lb 7.4 oz now, so with less ejecta mass with the smaller case, 10 lbs might work for me. Anyway, as the years increase, my desire for lighter rifles increases exponentially, far more than does my adversity to recoil.

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RH,

Like you I thought increasing mag capacity meant drop-belly stocks, an idea I find aesthetically unpleasant in most cases. I have a 404J Pre-64 Win M-70 so configured, but Roger Biesen did a great job of making the lines gentle and smooth, so even though it fits 4 cartridges, it doesn’t scream “drop belly!”

However, when I got my Win M-70 Classic 460 G&A back from Gene Simillion, he had built a slightly wider mag box which fit neatly flush in the factory wood stock, retained the one piece bottom metal and, lo and behold, held 4 404 Jeffery cases. I prefer that approach, which can be readily adapted to the Ruger Hawkeye.

I believe Riflecrank, AKA Sir Ron, posted a formula defining the measurements needed to fit specific cases in mag boxes, in the 458 WM+ thread.


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Sir Khulu,
Here is the math, turn it 90 degrees and stack the fourth cartridge on the same magazine width:

[Linked Image]

Hardly ever does a maker follow the law, usually they use a skinnier box width.
Heym may be an exception. Their magazines are cartridge specific.

B&C Medalist is my favorite for M70, M98, Ruger Hawkeye/MKII, and CZ 550 Magnum.

The Ruger Hawkeye/MKII stock weighs about 1 ounce less than 2 pounds.
The M70 LA stock weighs 2.0 pounds.
Here is the B&C Ruger on a .400 Whelen Hawkeye:

[Linked Image]

And here is same stock on a .300 WinMag destined to be a 20"-barreled .458 WinMag:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

That is the "unaesthetic-to-some" Alaska Arms coffin plate sticking proud of the bottom of the stock.


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Riflecrank, thanks for that information. I now see that the Ruger would be way too muzzle heavy if I made it 10 lbs with scope with a Medalist stock. Any lighter, will have too much recoil as a .450. Perhaps as a .375 at around 8 3/4 lbs including scope would be better for balance. My Medalist stock on Win Model 70 is 30.5 oz. The "coffin plate" looks good to me because of its functionality. I recently widened an internal mag in a Remington 700 to try to house 4 WSM cases (which are .404 Jeffery width) with a PTG canoe floorplate. Sure, I can fit 4 in, but they just won't feed and jam at the extra width going up the feed ramp at a wider angle, so I had to go back to 3 in the narrower internal magazine so they would feed.

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RH,

I’ve found that the Ruger Hawkeyes need to have the feedramp widened, specifically opening the ramp angle slightly to allow smooth feeding of flat nosed solids.


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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
RH,

I’ve found that the Ruger Hawkeyes need to have the feedramp widened, specifically opening the ramp angle slightly to allow smooth feeding of flat nosed solids.
Wildcatter, I'll have to look carefully at the Remington to see if I can possibly widen the feed ramp...I very much want to fit 4 WSM's in the internal mag with the canoe floorplate. When you say widen, I assume you mean flatten out the curvature on both sides? Riflecrank, perhaps consider calling your Ruger "Violet" in view of the stock. One wouldn't want their rifle to always be living in the shadow of another rifle with the same name.

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RH,

you’re correct.

I mean taking the curve of the feed ramp outwards into the corners. Have to be careful not to produce an overhang that can hang up the bullet nose. Taking care to keep a curvature at the lateral angles helps keep the nose of the bullet aimed centrally. This is probably less of an issue in the Remington PF as the cartridge should be freed from the mag into the center of the feed ramp. However, I can’t say that with certainty as I don’t have experience modifying Rem actions for WSM cartridges.

Sir Ron,

Thanks for the refresher course on Mauser mag box width calculations. Solving the equation for magnum-case and 375-Ruger-based-case cartridges, the width would work out to 0.993” to fit the 4th cartridge. IIRC I measured Gene Simillion’s mag box in my 460 G&A, which takes 4 rounds in a flush stock, so I’ll need to check how well it fits the formula prediction.

Last edited by Wildcatter264; 05/11/24. Reason: Added response to Sir Ron

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Originally Posted by Riflehunter
Riflecrank, perhaps consider calling your Ruger "Violet" in view of the stock. One wouldn't want their rifle to always be living in the shadow of another rifle with the same name.

Sir,
I resemble that remark. My maternal grandmother was named Violet.
Poor lighting has confused your appreciation of black web on red.
That is my color coding for Ruger and Winchester B&C stocks.
I use grey web on black for Mauser M98 rifles.
Not shown here is the black web on green or solid black, my two choices for CZ 550 Magnum color coding.
Heh-heh-heh:

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
Riflecrank, perhaps consider calling your Ruger "Violet" in view of the stock. One wouldn't want their rifle to always be living in the shadow of another rifle with the same name.

Sir,
I resemble that remark. My maternal grandmother was named Violet.
Poor lighting has confused your appreciation of black web on red.
That is my color coding for Ruger and Winchester B&C stocks.
I use grey web on black for Mauser M98 rifles.
Not shown here is the black web on green or solid black, my two choices for CZ 550 Magnum color coding.
Heh-heh-heh:

[Linked Image]
Well that makes it easy...."Ruby". Ruby Ruger.

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Well that might work.
My Wife's maternal grandmother was named Ruby.
I don't think she would mind.
My typo: I meant red web on black.
My Aunt Marcella was a sweetheart and a redhead.
My red on black Winchester M70 Classic .458 WM+ is named Marcella.


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Resetting priority:
No new .458 Winchester Magnum Dakota (.458 WMD) reamer
until there is a new .458 Winchester Magnum Ruger (.458 WMR) reamer.
No more re-chambering of a ringed chamber to .458/.416 Ruger Winchester Magnum Throated with multiple reamers.
Starting with a virgin barrel.
Her first name will be Ruby.
Last name Ruger.
No accident this time.


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Resetting priority:
No new .458 Winchester Magnum Dakota (.458 WMD) reamer
until there is a new .458 Winchester Magnum Ruger (.458 WMR) reamer.
No more re-chambering of a ringed chamber to .458/.416 Ruger Winchester Magnum Throated with multiple reamers.
Starting with a virgin barrel.
Her first name will be Ruby.
Last name Ruger.
No accident this time.
Well congratulations on Ruby Ruger, a splendid name. I wonder whether you intend to baptize Ruby (perhaps crossing a river on horseback or quad in Alaska on a bear hunt)? Yesterday I got the 4 WSM rounds to fit in (by using shims) and feed (by narrowing the top of the internal mag. box). I 'll post 83 gn .450 loads when I test them in a few weeks.

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Good work, Riflehunter.

I noticed this, since my last session with the .458 WinMag,
with three .458 WinMag rifles I fired at same session,
from clean, cold barrel, the rising velocity as the barrel gets nicely fouled,
and your data:

"At the muzzle (with my new Garmin) with a cold, clean barrel with 78 grains of H4895 and 500 grain Woodleigh I obtained:

1929, 1904, 2018, 1964 and 2062 fps

to give an average of 1976 fps out of the 25" barrel with Federal Mag 215 primers. This was a very pleasant mild load. I will measure 83 grains H4895 next session and hope that is around 2100 fps, and if so, that will be my practice load."



Be sure your barrel is nicely fouled before shooting for a 5-shot velocity average.
The common easy fouler might take 2 or 3 shots to get consistent/optimized.
Some lesser-fouling barrels might need 10 shots to get optimized,
like the stainless, 5-groove, JES, re-bore on Hammerella the .458 WinMag.
Just my SWAG.


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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Good work, Riflehunter.

I noticed this, since my last session with the .458 WinMag,
with three .458 WinMag rifles I fired at same session,
from clean, cold barrel, the rising velocity as the barrel gets nicely fouled,
and your data:

"At the muzzle (with my new Garmin) with a cold, clean barrel with 78 grains of H4895 and 500 grain Woodleigh I obtained:

1929, 1904, 2018, 1964 and 2062 fps

to give an average of 1976 fps out of the 25" barrel with Federal Mag 215 primers. This was a very pleasant mild load. I will measure 83 grains H4895 next session and hope that is around 2100 fps, and if so, that will be my practice load."



Be sure your barrel is nicely fouled before shooting for a 5-shot velocity average.
The common easy fouler might take 2 or 3 shots to get consistent/optimized.
Some lesser-fouling barrels might need 10 shots to get optimized,
like the stainless, 5-groove, JES, re-bore on Hammerella the .458 WinMag.
Just my SWAG.
Yes. In every rifle I own, the first shot out of a cold and clean barrel is always perhaps 20-50 fps less than the 3rd, 4th and 5th shot. The second string of five shots after cooling but without cleaning, often doesn't have that 6th shot 20-50 fps lower than succeeding shots. So it appears to be a fouling issue as opposed to a heat issue as you indicated. As the fouling causes the velocity to increase as opposed to causing the velocity to decrease, do you think this is because of copper from the first "fouling" shot makes the barrel slipperier as opposed to gunpowder residue which I would assume would increase friction and slow the following shots down (unless pressure increases, which increases the velocity)?

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Don't know.
It is complicated, eh ?
Does the powder/carbon fouling increase friction, pressure and velocity ?
Does copper fouling smooth things out, tighten things up, increase or decrease lubricity ?
Is "free machining" brass fouling more slippery than grabby copper ?

Since visible copper fouling at muzzle seems well correlated with the fouling improvement of consistency and velocity,
in my latest 3-rifle comparison,
I will discount the powder/carbon fouling ... for now.
I will keep shooting Hammerella the .458 WinMag with DGS solids without cleaning and observe for fouling
along with the Garmin XERO velocities and ambient temperature.
Might have to break out a bore scope along the way to watch that
apparently slick JES 5-groove re-bore.


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