Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Measuring Fish & Measuring Group Size

Have you noticed when others brag about the fish they caught they seem to grow several inches?

Oddly enough the same happens when shooting small groups. The shooter shoots three shots and magically they are a MOA or less and he celebrates. But when they shoot the next 5 or 10 shots their target looks like a gangbanger driveby.

It happened over the weekend and the shooter in question was taking pictures of his three shot group and apparently sending it out to his buddies. Too bad he didn't take a picture of the carnage created just 5 shots later. What a mess.

So how many shots constitutes an accuracy "group"? 1, 3, 5, 10?

And how many "fliers" are allowed? 0, 1, 5, 10?

This has been discussed in great lengths here, my thoughts are 10 shot groups, some are fine with 3. In the end, some people make hits, some people miss, the excuses are readily offered.

I like the 10 shot group theory when "proving" a load. A lot of us have done that here. The OP hasn't shot the challenges here, like we have. Maybe he needs to do that?

Then after the load is proven that it shoots moa or less, shoot your 5 shot groups. Or to conserve ammo and components (that has to be a consideration these days as well), or to triangulate the wind, shoot your 3 shot groups. I have been doing that a lot since I shoot more long range these days. I know some guys here will only shoot 2 shots to see what the wind is doing to shift POI.

I still stand by my belief that if your load is not confirmed, then 3 shots tell you nothing. A good proven load, and your bullets will still have a rather small POI on the target. But, with every shot fired, the chance of your group size going up increases.

This is about what I can live with:

Regular ol hunting rifle (lightweight, std wt, doesn't matter):
3 shot group: sub moa
5 shot group: moa
10 shot group: 1.5 moa

Precision rifle:
3 shot group: sub 1/2 moa
5 shot group: 1/2 moa
10 shot group: sub moa

Precision AR:
Same as above for precision rifle

Varmint rifle:
Same as above for precision rifle

Keeping in mind, this is with a proven load that has been confirmed many times over. Just how I see it. Others may disagree.

This is also not an argument. Just the way I've been seeing things lately, as component cost and availability is still not optimum. I've slowed down a bit on my shooting, but kept track of the benchrest primers I burned up last year (2022) and that was 6 bricks of BR2's, and something like 4 bricks of BR4's. I've cut way back on my 10 shot group shooting this past year (2023).

Everyone has their own feeling on what constitutes the proper amount of shots to make a group. As long as your rifle is consistent, and you are shooting a proven load, then you will know how well said rifle shoots. 3, 5 or 10 shots on target. We've seen a lot of bragging in the past, and a lot of guys can't prove they have a 1/2 moa rifle, when called out. That's just how it is. Like I always say, keep it honest and you're good.

OP asks how many fliers are allowed: NONE!!! You count everything you shoot. When you pull a shot, that means you need more practice, or something is wrong with your rifle or load.

Yep this has been beat to death.
3, 5 or 10 shot group doesn’t prove anything. It’s just as irritating when people say they have an ES of 10 and SD of 3 for 3 shots as it’s total BS.

To prove a load it takes ~30 shots to get a valid ES/SD and I don’t care if it’s 10 3 shot, 6 5 shot or 3 10 shot. If you take the average group size of all those it may just give you an inkling as to the rifle’s potential consistency but it does give a real good indication of load consistency.
30 5 shot or 15 10 shot groups would actually give the truest indication of the rifle’s capabilities. Just that it doesn’t sound a peachy perfect as “I shot a 3 shot group of .25 with an ES of 10 and SD of 3.”

Crying CLUELESS Kchunts,will ALWAYS find a reason to cry,which is never not fhuqking HILARIOUS. Hint.



Paper is simply the first step,in gathering DOPE. I put farrrrrrrrrr more store in erectors of repute,greedily clinging zero's and repeats,than some fhuqking Drooling Paper Trail. ES/SD is simply resolved afar and soundingly. Couple/few Puns intended. Hint.








You gals be SURE to fret that,which matters least. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!....................

I remember back in the 90's, the popular thing to do was to take an average of (5) 5 shot groups. A lot of the gun rags did it. That is probably more than some guys do. I've seen the same thing the OP is talking about. A guy at the range shoots a good 3 shot group (lets say 1/2"), then the next one may be 1 1/2". Some guys even cut that group out and put it in their wallets. Laughing here.

However, there should be a good baseline that closely represents your rifles accuracy. We are not talking statistical horseschiedt here. Shoot 30 30 shot groups, if it makes you happy. However, that is not real world happenings. Gun mags used to do an average of 5 5 shot groups, snipers hide or ARFCOM did the same thing in a shoot they called the "moa all day long" challenge. We also did one here, where you did not even submit a target. That may be something I have issue with. You have all these guys telling you how good they are at handloading, or how good they shoot, but when a challenge is made, you hear crickets chirping. You are one of those guys swifty. In the challenges we did here, we shot 2 10 shot groups side by side. That was quite the challenge for a lot of guys here. I think we kept it honest, and I have a lot of respect for the ones that did.

In that challenge, there have been close to 1/2 million views, so don't tell me it was not damn popular, or actually a good challenge: It was. If I remember right, there were only 11-13 people that could prove they actually had a "moa all day long" rifle. Sorry but you were not on that short list. I bring this up because you often comment about how good your handloads and shooting are. Anytime that happens, I say "PROVE IT"!!! And if you want to post a 30 shot group, go ahead.

Don't feel bad, becasue stick didn't post a target either. I'm assuming he posted right before I did. You guys are more than welcome to post a target in that challenge. It would be cool to see if you make the cut. Good luck!!

My AR's are all equipped with milspec triggers, and "service grade" barrels. Generally 2 to 3 MOA with service grade ammo......sometimes better, but not really expected.

I like a 10-shot group to tell me what's really going on regarding accuracy and confirming a good zero.

100 yards,




Those running match grade triggers/barrels/ammo, probably don't need as many rounds to get a clear picture of what's going on.

In "fairness" BullSchitArtist has zero pics of The Outdoors,whether Fish,Fowl or Game. Hint.

She's "soothed" by the "sanctity" of "doing" fhuqking NOTHING and lamenting same,while fretting paper. Hint.

She'll bitch,whine and cry,less her kchunt EVER leaving her couch. Hint.

Then she'll prove it obliviously. Ask her what she "does" for a "living". Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...............

will put fish aside for the now..

measuring groups I thought was always really simple no matter how many shots it was (I understand that can be debatable on what the best is but measure outside the outside minus the caliber that gives you the same as center to center..

that would be measuring group size

bullseye we're shooting for score if the outside of the edge breaks the next scoring on the paper it goes to the higher score..

Yep measuring group size is easy, measuring outside to outside minus the caliber, all my guns shoot in the zero’s.

One shot groups count right?

We for the most part not measured groups or fish or animals in years. Don't see the point.

It either makes you happy or not.

I'm not using any one else guns generally. Could care less how they shoot. Long as each of our guns is accurate enough for the task we are happy.

When we shot service rifle we tested 10 and 20 shot groups because that was our need. Just like these days.

The best testing we do these days is about a 3 inch diamond target. Fire one round at 200,300,400 and 500 each. Holding or adjusting. And we do that over a few weeks a few times a week generally tweaking zero's. I know after a week or two if the load is working the way I need it to.

LOL, does this mean you are going to post those 1000 yard groups promised in your challenge of beating my 1000 yard sling and irons groups if I posted mine first? In fairness you did post a 600 yard bench group, but it was larger than my 600 yard sling group. Difficult to maintain your credibility when you can't back up your bluster...

A while back, I took several rifles with several loads each to the range to do some ammo testing and sighting in. These are the last 6 shots with the same load from my Ruger AR with my Bushnell AR 1-6 scope. I shot the three low and left and made a scope adjustment to put me 1.5 high at 100. 3 shots is what I normally do, especially during sighting in and load testing, although I know the complete rifle/ammo/shooter ammo story isn't complete at just 3 shots.

Is that effectively a 6 shot group? Are the three shot groups meaningful in any way or should I simply dismiss them? Does intended use come into play? I believe that 3 shot groups, with special attention paid to the consistency of cold bore first shots are more than adequate for hunters. Competition shooters will likely want to shoot just as they do in competition.

I don't call the rifle or the loads sub MOA. I didn't measure the groups, but it looks like those two 100 yard 3 shot groups were close to 1/2 MOA, so I do say that I got two 3 shot 100 yard groups at about 1/2 MOA. Is there anything wrong with saying that? I have posted the pic a few times, not to brag, but just because it's a bit of a surprise that a bone stock Ruger AR with bad trigger and a cheap scope was capable of that. It's possible that it is nothing more than anomalous, but more than likely, it shows solid potential for that load in that rifle with this dork on the trigger.

The real test for hunting guns is not bench shooting, but shooting from the position or positions that are they are most likely to encounter in the field.

Just blabbing.

Good post

Hmmmmmm. Hint.





Fhuqking LAUGHING!.....................

Well here’s the game I play. Total 30 rounds.
5 sets of 6 shots
Using the sighter target lower right every time for first shot, then move poa 12.5 inches up 5.5 inches left 3rd shot 12.5 inches down 4th shot 12.5 inches up 5.5 inches right 5th shot 7 inches down 5.5 inches left 6th 5.5 inches right. Then wait 20 minutes. Around here conditions change in a 20 minute span.
Now the point is to change which target you shoot first after the sighter so that each and every shot you have to move your poa in a different pattern. Repeat until you have 6 5 shot groups then average em all. So unlike just a 5 shot group where poa never changes you have 6 random 5 shot groups produced under different conditions. And to throw in a kicker you have 7 minutes to shoot all 6 shots.

The target I am using is that the bull is 1/4” from the popcorn fart x dot for a total of 1/2” each scoring ring is 1/4” wide

Try it

That method often slightly underestimates the group size because the holes in the target are usually not full bullet diameter.

The campfire. Queen of picking nits.

Great steelhead and nice knife.

I had an Ingram on the radar for a long time. Something similar to that. I finally contacted Gene about two years ago, he had recently suffered a serious injury from a fall. He put me “in the book” but couldn’t make any promises to make it. I never heard back so presumably he’s out of the knife making business.

Lemming…if you ask him to add you to his email list he sends out small batches of knives he does here and there.
When he does you have to be very quick