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BSA, how often do you shoot those matches?
Too close for irons, switching to scope...
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The point of my post was dont just assume because it is a NF its bullet proof or any scope for that matter.
I've seen guys i know migrate over to March.
Last edited by sherm_61; 12/07/23.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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BSA, how often do you shoot those matches? I go often enough. I may go to a longrange speed match on the 16th. In that shoot, I'll be using holdovers, not twisting the turrets.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Was hoping to add some context to your statements on reliability of the SHV scopes. Seemed like you only shot a couple of those matches a year...
Too close for irons, switching to scope...
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Regular
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Good luck at your speed match!
Too close for irons, switching to scope...
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,106 Likes: 10 |
Good luck at your speed match! Thanks buddy. I'll probably need it. Going to go out now and do a little practicing out to 800 yards with the CTR in the Mcmillan A3 edge and 147 ELD match bullets. May even bring the heavy barreled 308w model 70 out, to compare the 2. I know you like your model 70's and the 308win. Gotta practice with no rear support too, that sucks!! Well, we can use our hand for support, but that is not like a good rear sand bag.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Cowboy up and just use a sling.😎
Too close for irons, switching to scope...
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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Cowboy up and just use a sling.😎 Can't use a sling, as per rules. Well, just got back from doing some testing. Only took the CTR 6.5 CM. Weather sucks. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/zBbsu8v.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/HL0Uxhr.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/EdJAqhq.png) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/pjAf8O7.png) Was helping out a fellow hunter. He set his target up at 300 yards, but did not hit it. Too damn windy and cold I guess. He was asking about how to use his scope. Of course it was a Vortex Razor or PST of some fashion. I asked if I could look through his scope to see what reticle it had. It was MOA, and numbered for every 2 MOA. Kind of a cluttered christmas tree reticle. He wanted to hit the coyote at 400 yards so bad he could taste it, so he asked how. Rifle chambered for 30-06, running 180gr Remington corelokts. I figured he'd have to dial 10+ moa to hit it. Although, he later said he was dialed in for 200 yards. He shot one at 10 moa on the reticle and it was high. I said your shot was high, then he said, "I'm zeroed for 200 yards". I said, ok then you'll probably need to drop down to around 7 moa then. I looked at his dial, and there were a lot of numbers on the POS. I told him he'd be better off just using the reticle. I told him if he has to shoot at 400 yards on his critter, use that same hold. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/n6wVlS3.jpg) His 2 shots on the front shoulder of the yote. The 5 shots in the head are from the CTR.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Regular
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Cowboy up and just use a sling.😎 Can't use a sling, as per rules. . I bet Cody would let you if you asked. 😉
Too close for irons, switching to scope...
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,106 Likes: 10 |
Cowboy up and just use a sling.😎 Can't use a sling, as per rules. . I bet Cody would let you if you asked. 😉 Probably not.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Interesting test...have you tried it at 50 yards? I am assuming you are shooting at 100 yards. I don't see how you can verify tracking when you have so many things which can affect your results that you can't control. What about the wind, repeatable bench technique, mirage, shooter fatigue, 3 shot groups, canting, and the inherent accuracy of the rifle? I wonder if shooting closer at 50 yards would allow you to get a closer approximation to verifying tracking. Moving the scope adjustments changes your point of aim, now you are using your point of impact to verify the change in point of aim. Just some food for thought. Testing like this and discussing it will get us all closer to the truth. The accepted norm for most load testing is groups at 100 yards, it only makes sense to test a scope at 100 yards in this way. A known rifle, with a known load, will yield recognizable results regarding the center of a group size at the point of impact. Wind ~ first of all pick a day with minimal wind conditions. Second of all, that's part of the point of testing a load or scope at 100 yards. Far less chance of wind influence than at say, i dunno, 1000 yards? Bench technique ~ most folks who would bother with a test like this already possess more than adequate bench technique. Personally, I don't like a bench. Bipods and rear bag. I test the same way I would shoot. Mirage ~ wonderful wind indicator if your lucky enough to see it when your shooting. Shooter fatigue ~ eat your Wheaties, get some sleep. 3 shot groups ~ two less than 5. Shoot whatever floats your boat. We are testing a scope, not a load. Canting ~ time to install an anti-cant device if canting is an issue. Inherent accuracy of the rifle ~ dunno about you but I'm not putting a scope worthy of long range on a rifle that isn't. Point of aim ~ in this test your point of aim always remains the same. Optimally at the bottom center of the target. You are testing the erector of the scope by comparing the actual point of impacts with the amount of MOA or MILS dialed into the scope. IOW, does inputting 5 MILS in the scope actually move the point of impact UP 5 MILS above your POA? Does 10 MILS dialed move the impact UP 10 MILS above your POA? When you dial back to your zero stop do the impacts actually return back to your actual "ZERO"? These are important things a long range shooter needs to know about his rig. Thus, the test. Put your rifle in a vise and place the cross hairs on your target. Start moving your elevation turret, what happens? Don't touch the rifle or try to move it. Does your point of aim move? Place your rifle in the same vise and place the cross hairs on your target. Shoot a group on the paper. Now place a piece of cardstock that has been folded between your barrel and the forend of the stock. Slide it back with enough force that it wedges in the gap with force and won't go back to the receiver. Shoot another group. Does the group change it's location on your target? Remember your scope is still on the target and you have not made any adjustments to the elevation knob. Did your scope fail the test? Next place your rifle in the same vise and get the bore perfectly level to the target. Now shoot a group. Where did it hit? I am sure it is low, correct? These examples should illustrate that point of aim and point of impact are not the same. We use scopes and sights on a rifle to move our point of impact. That doesn't mean point of impact will accurately measure changes to the point of aim. To measure the accuracy of a scopes adjustments you need a test which measures changes in point of aim. I am not trying to crap on the test. I am really glad to OP went to the trouble of doing it and sharing his results with us. It is valuable information that he provided. I am trying to get all of us to put our heads together and determine a way to get the answers we all want. barm, the main intent of this test is to test the scopes for accuracy of the elevation turret adjustment. This test is best done with the recoil from the rifle vs. a static test in a vise. There are some scopes that will pass a static test, but fail a test that is done when recoil is added. Formid did one a while back, on Rokslide, with the same type of scope my buddy was having issues with. This is the reason I decided to check my scopes. As it turns out, I have 3 Nightforce SHV rifle scopes that have about a 3% tracking error. The other 2 Nightforce rifle scopes I have are pretty much spot on. I have also checked these scopes multiple times, and they show the same error. That confirms the errors are consistent, and one of the reasons they do not match up exactly with the ballistic calculators I've used. I also want to add that this test can be done with any scope, as long as it has a numbered turret. Even a cheap Burris... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/2FdSWSz.jpg) ...like what I use on my AR's can be tested and checked^^^^. Moral of the story, if you twist your dials at all and you have noticed some kind of anomaly or error on targets downrange, then a test like this may tell you what you need to know. When I say downrange, I mean past 400 yards. It's easy enough to do at 100 yards. Hang your target plumb, shoot at one point (the bottom dot on my targets for example), and adjust your turret and see how it matches up with your measured increments. When I do this test, I am also testing my natural point of aim, to see If I am holding the rifle so the reticle is perfectly plumb. If you find that you cant your rifle when you shoot, that could throw the POI off to one side or the other. So like I said in another post, it's not just about the tracking of the scope. When shooting this test, you are testing many factors that may cause a miss downrange. However, most importantly is if your scope is dialing as it should. Thank you for sharing your results. I enjoyed reading it.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,106 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,106 Likes: 10 |
Interesting test...have you tried it at 50 yards? I am assuming you are shooting at 100 yards. I don't see how you can verify tracking when you have so many things which can affect your results that you can't control. What about the wind, repeatable bench technique, mirage, shooter fatigue, 3 shot groups, canting, and the inherent accuracy of the rifle? I wonder if shooting closer at 50 yards would allow you to get a closer approximation to verifying tracking. Moving the scope adjustments changes your point of aim, now you are using your point of impact to verify the change in point of aim. Just some food for thought. Testing like this and discussing it will get us all closer to the truth. The accepted norm for most load testing is groups at 100 yards, it only makes sense to test a scope at 100 yards in this way. A known rifle, with a known load, will yield recognizable results regarding the center of a group size at the point of impact. Wind ~ first of all pick a day with minimal wind conditions. Second of all, that's part of the point of testing a load or scope at 100 yards. Far less chance of wind influence than at say, i dunno, 1000 yards? Bench technique ~ most folks who would bother with a test like this already possess more than adequate bench technique. Personally, I don't like a bench. Bipods and rear bag. I test the same way I would shoot. Mirage ~ wonderful wind indicator if your lucky enough to see it when your shooting. Shooter fatigue ~ eat your Wheaties, get some sleep. 3 shot groups ~ two less than 5. Shoot whatever floats your boat. We are testing a scope, not a load. Canting ~ time to install an anti-cant device if canting is an issue. Inherent accuracy of the rifle ~ dunno about you but I'm not putting a scope worthy of long range on a rifle that isn't. Point of aim ~ in this test your point of aim always remains the same. Optimally at the bottom center of the target. You are testing the erector of the scope by comparing the actual point of impacts with the amount of MOA or MILS dialed into the scope. IOW, does inputting 5 MILS in the scope actually move the point of impact UP 5 MILS above your POA? Does 10 MILS dialed move the impact UP 10 MILS above your POA? When you dial back to your zero stop do the impacts actually return back to your actual "ZERO"? These are important things a long range shooter needs to know about his rig. Thus, the test. Put your rifle in a vise and place the cross hairs on your target. Start moving your elevation turret, what happens? Don't touch the rifle or try to move it. Does your point of aim move? Place your rifle in the same vise and place the cross hairs on your target. Shoot a group on the paper. Now place a piece of cardstock that has been folded between your barrel and the forend of the stock. Slide it back with enough force that it wedges in the gap with force and won't go back to the receiver. Shoot another group. Does the group change it's location on your target? Remember your scope is still on the target and you have not made any adjustments to the elevation knob. Did your scope fail the test? Next place your rifle in the same vise and get the bore perfectly level to the target. Now shoot a group. Where did it hit? I am sure it is low, correct? These examples should illustrate that point of aim and point of impact are not the same. We use scopes and sights on a rifle to move our point of impact. That doesn't mean point of impact will accurately measure changes to the point of aim. To measure the accuracy of a scopes adjustments you need a test which measures changes in point of aim. I am not trying to crap on the test. I am really glad to OP went to the trouble of doing it and sharing his results with us. It is valuable information that he provided. I am trying to get all of us to put our heads together and determine a way to get the answers we all want. barm, the main intent of this test is to test the scopes for accuracy of the elevation turret adjustment. This test is best done with the recoil from the rifle vs. a static test in a vise. There are some scopes that will pass a static test, but fail a test that is done when recoil is added. Formid did one a while back, on Rokslide, with the same type of scope my buddy was having issues with. This is the reason I decided to check my scopes. As it turns out, I have 3 Nightforce SHV rifle scopes that have about a 3% tracking error. The other 2 Nightforce rifle scopes I have are pretty much spot on. I have also checked these scopes multiple times, and they show the same error. That confirms the errors are consistent, and one of the reasons they do not match up exactly with the ballistic calculators I've used. I also want to add that this test can be done with any scope, as long as it has a numbered turret. Even a cheap Burris... ...like what I use on my AR's can be tested and checked^^^^. Moral of the story, if you twist your dials at all and you have noticed some kind of anomaly or error on targets downrange, then a test like this may tell you what you need to know. When I say downrange, I mean past 400 yards. It's easy enough to do at 100 yards. Hang your target plumb, shoot at one point (the bottom dot on my targets for example), and adjust your turret and see how it matches up with your measured increments. When I do this test, I am also testing my natural point of aim, to see If I am holding the rifle so the reticle is perfectly plumb. If you find that you cant your rifle when you shoot, that could throw the POI off to one side or the other. So like I said in another post, it's not just about the tracking of the scope. When shooting this test, you are testing many factors that may cause a miss downrange. However, most importantly is if your scope is dialing as it should. Thank you for sharing your results. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks Barm. You brought up some good points and questions. I appreciate it!
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I did the same tall target test on a 4.5-14 Leupold CDS , it passed on one day before I took it to a steel test the following day. All went well until I went from 350 to 450 with a light 6.5 SAUM, I hit the fence post holding my 10" steel target with my first 2 shots and then it corrected to the center of the 10" steel.
As much as I wanted the Leupold to track it did not. It did well for 2 years with minimial dialing and I did connect on a 625 yard antelope on the first shot. Perfectly placed 130 JLK.
The same scope after Leupold FIXED it, it failed this year double, grouping 3" from shot to shot. I had 2 really nice sub 3/4" groups 3" apart.
I am still looking for a solution, who TF wants to put a 2 lb scope on a 5 lb rifle?
I have to add that when they returned the scope it tracked very well on several trips shootig steel Until it went south. I verified it today after mounting an old M8 10X AO. Right back to shooting in the .6's and .7's. I need to do some more research on a RELIABLE 10 or 12X top end that doesn't weigh more than the rifle.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I verified it today after mounting an old M8 10X AO. Right back to shooting in the .6's and .7's. I need to do some more research on a RELIABLE 10 or 12X top end that doesn't weigh more than the rifle. Mike, you might want to try the S&B Klassik 3-12x42 with their new 4.8 mil BDC dial. works great
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I verified it today after mounting an old M8 10X AO. Right back to shooting in the .6's and .7's. I need to do some more research on a RELIABLE 10 or 12X top end that doesn't weigh more than the rifle. Mike, you might want to try the S&B Klassik 3-12x42 with their new 4.8 mil BDC dial. works great Thanks Marty, I'll take a look.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Good stuff. Thanks for posting. I second that. I third it. Good job BSA! I’ve only read the first page but I’ll add that when setting up for a TTT be sure the target is dead plumb and not tilted fore/aft. And less intuitively, that both your front and rear rests are able to adjust to accommodate the changing angle that the rifle will be at as the test proceeds, without changing POI in and of itself. That’s important. A further thought. If you are confident in your rest’s ability to accommodate the varying angle of the rifle on the bags, you can ALSO test repeatability with your TTT by shooting one shot, adjusting however many MILs or MOA’s you are using for your test, firing one shot, and repeat, until you’ve generated your groups at the various POI’s, one shot at a time. This is as opposed to adjusting then shooting an entire group at that POI, which tests tracking but not repeatability per se. Broke a finger on my left hand yesterday in rather gnarly fashion so I’ll have some free time in the next few weeks when I can’t run my machines… BSA, I should run the TTT’s on my V4’s as you suggest.
Last edited by Jeff_O; 01/02/24.
The CENTER will hold.
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FÜCK PUTIN!
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Broke a finger on my left hand yesterday in rather gnarly fashion so I’ll have some free time in the next few weeks when I can’t run my machines… Extra tough bullet box?
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I’ve only read the first page but I’ll add that when setting up for a TTT be sure the target is dead plumb and not tilted fore/aft. And less intuitively, that both your front and rear rests are able to adjust to accommodate the changing angle that the rifle will be at as the test proceeds, without changing POI in and of itself. That’s important. A further thought. If you are confident in your rest’s ability to accommodate the varying angle of the rifle on the bags, you can ALSO test repeatability with your TTT by shooting one shot, adjusting however many MILs or MOA’s you are using for your test, firing one shot, and repeat, until you’ve generated your groups at the various POI’s, one shot at a time. This is as opposed to adjusting then shooting an entire group at that POI, which tests tracking but not repeatability per se. Broke a finger on my left hand yesterday in rather gnarly fashion so I’ll have some free time in the next few weeks when I can’t run my machines… BSA, I should run the TTT’s on my V4’s as you suggest.[/quote] The last guy that should be offering any advice…..
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Campfire Outfitter
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If you send a scope back and it comes back no better, it’s a QC issue.
Hence, switch brands.
Better? It's not a QC issue , it is a design issue.
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