Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Howa Mini action in 6.5 Grendel

For a long time a 30-30 considered not niche and especially with 170’s for class 3 game and everything we typically hunt. Same powder burned and the 123 6.5 has same sd as a 168 gr 30 cal but you triple the effective distance of the 30-30. People may call it niche but it has class 3 game sd like a 30-30 170 only it can stay 1800 fps to 400+ yards even from a 16” barrel, a 24” barrel adds 120 yards. People kill bull elk to 405 and guys have daughters kill big muley bucks at 658 and another guy killed an antelope at 752.

So while on its face the 6.5 Grendel 123 may sound niche it’s not. Everything else on that case is. Big game including class 3 can be dumped to 400+ and I’d run it against a 7-08 120 all day. You compromise with anything .257 or 6mm as you just don’t get enough bullet even though 103/108’s do get there on sd and will work it still under 120 gr...still niche, almost there on the numbers but being under 120 isn’t enough. So you end up with a crossover target varmint niches like every other 6mm. The odd guy dives then well on everything but niche to the mass consciousness.

We just ran Grendel 123 on alberta big game for 6 seasons, 7 species, 20 animals, 10-420 yards, 160-165 yard average shot distance and average recovery distance around 10 yards. Not niche. Bottom end of proper big game like a 30-30 170...the 150 called a deer round.

Chew on it for a minute before you try to argue it lol. If hunting is the consideration then the 6.5 Grendel is the best choice. The question posed was that or arc. If hunting isn’t primary consideration then go with any arc etc.

So you don't actually have a source, the 120 grain minimum is just something you came up with from your imagination.

It’s quite active, as illustrated in the Q thread.

Just got my 6mm ARC from Wayne -- looks just like this one -- black with gray webbing. I am excited to try it out.

I am also looking for a scope. Think I will put one of the Burris Scopes I have on it.

Kids these days, don’t listen well, was 6 seasons, 20 animals, 7 species to 420 yards on alberta big game from just me and my kids isn’t enough eh? Or the near 40 years of all of North America saying what I’m saying every time you hear things asked on forums and gun counters.

But you need a link? Hahaha, bruh. That’s funny, thanks for the laugh, knew where that was headed and you walked right into it. The sheer volume of links available would need ai to capture them all to give to you. You’ll be busy for awhile learning...learning exactly what I just told you.

Negative ghost rider. Thanks to me you’ll now be paying attention to all threads and discussions for this very thing I’ve been paying attention to for decades.

You’re welcome. The answer exists and I just happen to be a more astute student. No biggie, don’t get any hurt feelers. I didn’t say the arc couldn’t kill stuff, I just said for hunting the answer is the same for all 6.5 vs 6mm questions. Not sure why any of you wouldn’t connect that dot. I speak fluent ballistics, inflight and terminal boys, so what I’m pointing out is...there is a crossover point where the bb is just too small to be accepted on mass scale as legit hunting. All I’ve done is point it out. If you also were astute lifelong students fully fluent in terminal and inflight ballistics then none of this would be a surprise.

Again...you are all welcome.

Now everyone can choose what’s best for them because all the answers are here. Just as they are in every 6.5 vs 6 thread. Easy really

Just because mass isn’t directly talked about in this way doesn’t mean the line isn’t indirectly understood in the mass consciousness. It is. If you pay attention. Which I have for decades. Go ahead and use chat whatever and ask it lol. Let’s see what it thinks of my observations and ability to verbalize that lifelong study.

You’re all welcome. A new, yet accurate, perspective to understand going forward.

Lastly, if you haven’t been killing with either to see for yourselves then maybe slow your roll because that question is coming next.

Oooohhhh. So he's just bat schit crazy.

hahahahah that's what i got out of it also!

Lol, 6mm guys are way worse

When you come to a forum full of people that will start arguing over a picture of a rock you have to be thorough to put an end of discussion response down. Showing you whippersnappers how that’s done also. Now you can start arguing about other things but Grendel vs arc was easy to answer like any other 6.5 vs 6 thread. Always start with the bullet. Never the cartridge and never the caliber, those things come after.

Says a guy that doesn’t handload. You couldn’t start with anything unless someone put it together for you stinky. You are truly a hoot.

I'd be curious to hear about your big game hunting experience with 6mms and 25s that would lead you to believe that the 6.5 120 is a minimum standard.

Pack a lunch. You’ll need it.

yes my theme has been consistent throughout all forum speak, I speak to the broader audience of hunters and shooters, they don't reload, so without caveating every single post with the obvious, these discussions should always be about good ole saami off the shelf everything, right? right

everyone knows reloading can make just about any cartridge cover twice the versatility range, maybe quadruple actually, of any off the shelf stuff...do you reloaders have a taller horse and forget the audience on these Internet forums? speak to the levels or caveat yer sh1t

anyway, thanks, you're a hoot in your own way also

as for the 6mm guy, several .243's...and this grendel 123gr combo has been every bit it's equal or more while burning quite a bit less powder because when you start with the bullet and understand the formula for that bullet to get most out of it for game intended then there's no surprises or arguments, and actually I'm getting shorter recoveries and more drt's than I was with things much stronger than the .243, .270's and .270 wsm with 140 accubonds I ran the most...so try to question me on terminal ballistics, how to apply formulas for task at hand, good luck with that, been at this awhile and when you can take that knowledge and to 6 seasons straight on 20 animals and 7 species in Alberta with just one thing that people seem to struggle with....well, go find out yourself then, I'm not just talking about it, have been doing it for years, I did the talking long before I did it, we're waaaaay past that now

start with the bullet

if you reload, you can make a 6mm pretty ok, the creed and arc can now do 6mm off the shelf pretty ok, but none of their heavy for cal can get over 120 grains and hunting lands inside certain distances that will make the 6.5 creed/grendels better hunting options than all 6mm niche comparisons...I didn't say 6mm was bad choice in this sh1tshow, just that for hunting...if that's your priority, 6.5 wins every day and you can even do it off the shelf with these moderns, you don't need to reload anymore to play at the peak of inflight and terminal ballistics, so, if you do more steel and varmints....6mm is you jam, if you primarily chase big game...and you haven't fallen for the latest marketed hype train then you'll end up choosing the 6.5 as the ultimate between them, try to deflect or argue or whatever...I answered correctly and decisively and yet the hurt feelers will still come along to argue over a rock lol

Ignoring the rest of the bullshit attempted enlightenment you've shared, your contention is that a light for caliber bullet at moderate velocities (123 gr @ 6.5 Grendel velo) is hands down superior to heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities (108 gr @ 6 ARC velo)?

So you don't have any experience with the 6mm ARC, yet declare it lacking compared to the vaunted 6.5 Grendel because of your magical 120 grain minimum. Got it.

well, are we still talking about hunting right, as that's where I said one of these things is better than the other and here's why...formula is sectional density, construction, impact velocity for game intended, hunting, even long range hunting only a moderate amount can consistently kill at 450 and very few at 600, while the grendel has antelope at 752 and muley bucks at 658 etc. these will be the very few and those guys will drive the arc as well or better way out there on game but that isn't the general consensus audience on an Internet forum or anywhere in hunting land either so we will be realistic about it...those added speeds and slight bc/sd advantages help more niche target varmint stuff, not big game hunting

drilling down further then, to the formula, eld-m with high sd is rapid expansion construction, paired best with moderate velocity cartridges the formula doesn't tear apart the bullet too fast to still penetrate deeply on game intended, the 6.5 Grendel 123 actually hits the window perfectly from muzzle to 500 for eld-m....the 6 arc 108 pushes that window another 150-170 yards out....(niche distances) and therefore hampers where the actual majority of things are killed by being a little too fast up front, less penetration and on top of that already less bullet mass to frag and open up etc. so you will see more consistent penetration depths from muzzle to 500 on the grendel, the arc will hit that window better from 200-700, so you give up at a very important end where actually 98% of the actually happens in hunting to have it on the end where very few can consistently kill anything...anyway, hopefully that starts one thinking about these things a little more as you work this stuff out from 40,000' not just 'well it has the highest bc so it must be the best' lol...way more to it than that, while it may appear due to the higher starting sd of the 108 it will go as deep as the 123...not at the muzzle to 200, the 123 likely out penetrate it as it's not coming apart as violently...the 108 eld-m will do it's best work 200-700 and still only do it with 108 gr not 123 gr

so are we splitting hairs here? yes, can the .223 77gr tmk rokslide special kill well to 400 also? sure, is it done there? could be, most hunters are but the 6.5 grendel has clocked impressive kills well beyond that, the arc would be my choice over the .223 also, but when all 3 are available...the best formula for 0-500 yard hunting is in the .252 sd, .5 bc, 123gr, eld-m from that case, rather than slightly better bc/sd numbers and lower mass at higher velocity from the 6arc....

long way around of saying why people will always over suggest the 6.5 over 6mm for hunting regardless the case...why the 6mm will always be niche in comparison, always has, always will, I didn't say you won't kill but the question was asked which is better, if even a c-hair...I'm telling some of the reasons why, still wanna argue about it? go ahead...you've got enough to work with, make your own choices lol

you guys get hung up on speeds and bc's...there's more to the magic formula than that

we all make lists of requirements before we get into things, since hunting is my jam the 120 gr was minimum, .5 bc was minimum and .25 sd was minimum to have 21st century inflight ballistics(range potential/hit probability), as I did also a lot of predator calling looking for lighter recoil and kids on the way (they drive now lol) I was looking for a 'do all' minimum with hunting focus period, steel doesn't compute, and predator calling here includes wolves cougars and bears...so the .22 cals were out as we need 6mm or better for legality but makes sense for Alberta hunting period...so we start at the 6mm and look up from there, no 6mm bullet makes the non-niche weight I was after of minimum 120 gr, I'd shot lots with .243's and just wasn't there for me, shot lots with lots bigger also, my formula for said hunting after shooting tough bullets, squishy bullets, high and low speeds had dulled down to more the efficiency spectrum of rapid expansion higher sd driven slower to get more drt/and short recoveries than I'd seen from the 'just in case' formulas of higher hp and tougher bullets and proved it 6 years, no surprises, only pleasant ones, call it over achiever or just the best balanced

so that bullet was looked at hard then the right case to drive it slow enough ended up being the x39 case, anything else would be faster than I want for that type of construction for game intended, example relations would be 140's or better from the creed and 168's from the 308...recoil levels keep going up, extra not needed to kill how I wanted to kill in the distances hunters kill, and since had the other goals of minimum end of things the x39 case and that 123 had the perfect formula/blend/most efficient from muzzle to 500 to do it all, we have moose, sheep, black bears, mule deer, whitetails, wolf, coyotes...to 420 yards, 20 things, average shot distance 160-165 yards and average recovery distance ~10 yards, shorter than most of my .270 and .270 wsm 140 gr accubond kills...so it's not all numbers, it's how you read and apply them

make your list however you like, I did, and it worked perfect for 6 years, 20 animals, 7 species

walked, then talked, then walked the talk, now talking about it...you don't have to like it, the world of big game hunting bears out the most minimum recommendation you'll see from 7mm down is 120 gr as an accepted legit big game bullet weight, sometimes you see it in the 6.5's also, the .270 130 is another in that node, most 6.5 however tend to run heavier but it's got way better sd than 7mm so to me the 120 in 7 is the worst option but is still seen as a legit big game bullet...absolutely nothing in 6mm gets the universal acceptance or understanding...don't cry about it, I loved the 6mm forever, I like a ton about it, fantasized about many plus 100 gr potential builds, but only until the 123 gr a-max came around lol, which became the eld-m....after that it was just blind luck that someone had it in a case that makes more sense than a standard short action case to slow it down where it would work the best, I had to wait a long time to get that off the shelf, 2017/18 finally...and 6 years later, here we are

you're welcome to that experience, take whatever you want or don't want from it

someone asked best between grendel and arc, I say for what? if hunting then argument switches not from grendel to arc but 6.5 to 6, 6.5 always wins, given adequate formula the bigger heavier bullet always wins, always has always will, if your need is more blended in the target varmint world the 6 always seems to win, although I've read for the guys like to play to around 700 yards they went back to grendel from arc for better audibles and miss visible from the 123....so it's very very limited where the 6mm is advantageous to the 6.5

And I thought I spent too much time on the internet...