Mine is a HB model and wears a Meopta 1.5-6x42 with German #1. It is light enough to use on called coyotes and heavy enough to reach out there to 300 yards so for me the scope is about perfect.
I have a Trijicon Credo HX 1-6 on mine, but might swap scopes with my .22 mag AR, which has a 1-4 Bushnell 4200, at least for the Winter predator season. My Carbon Mini .223 has a Tract Toric 3-15.
Another good choice would be a good 3-9 like an Accupoint.
BTW, you absolutely do need one. Very handy and fun!
I've taken it out to 1K on steel and it is my primary deer and coyote hunting rifle. Superbly accurate; my best 3-shot groups are in the 0.25" range at 100 yards. No real recoil to speak of--and as mentioned above; it is a likeable little rifle.
It is also a fantastic suppressor host, although I am playing with the idea of chopping the barrel to 14.5" and pinning and welding a muzzle brake/can mount to make it even better at that role.
Bought one in 6ARC last week. Took it out and shot patterns with factory ammo. Stock was a mess. Barrel did not sit centered in channel, not much room around the barrel and just overall a poor effort. I took it off, opened up the barrel channel, JB Weld bedded it. Cut a couple coils off the trigger spring and now it at least shoots 4 shot groups hovering around an inch. Time now now to mess with reloading to see if it will really shoot. I'd really like to get it shooting 3/4 minute with 100gr btsp hunting bullets and a little better with higher bc target bullets and varmint bullets.
I feel like the Howas are kind of project rifles. The metalwork is typically very good but the stock fit and finish is slapped together to hit a price point. If you like to tinker, then they can be made to shoot well.
FWIW: I also have a Howa Mini in .222. That little rifle shoots very nice. I expect with a little work that the 6ARC will also.
Last edited by centershot; 11/29/23.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
I put a3x9 Accupoint with green mil dot on mine which I zeroed at 100 yds and using dots for holdover. In reality, virtually everything it will be used to shoot, other than paper and steel, will probably be under 50 yds. Alabama creek bottoms tend to be dense
Nice rig. I keep trying to talk myself into a Stocky's carbon stock. Hard to put more than the entire rifle cost in the first place into a stock........then I would need 2.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
Nice rig. I keep trying to talk myself into a Stocky's carbon stock. Hard to put more than the entire rifle cost in the first place into a stock........then I would need 2.
Bought it on sale for $299. Couldn’t pass it up. Hoping to get a Jefferson outdoors BM before long.
I just got the carbon fiber stocked model in 6.5 Grendel this October and have a leupold 3-9X compact on it - it’s taken two deer so far and weighs in around 5.5lbs all up. I really like this one and it shoots extremely well to boot!!
Nice rig. I keep trying to talk myself into a Stocky's carbon stock. Hard to put more than the entire rifle cost in the first place into a stock........then I would need 2.
Bought it on sale for $299. Couldn’t pass it up. Hoping to get a Jefferson outdoors BM before long.
I have a Jefferson bottom metal on my 222, they work great and really clean up that plastic mag and bottom metal (plastic). Going to see how far I can modify the factory stock before dumping more into it. These things can be a money pit. lol
And back to the OP question.......I have a Burris Signature HD 3-15x44 on mine.
Last edited by centershot; 11/29/23.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
Who here has purpose built a Mini Grendel for their kids?
Wasn't purpose built, but my youngest has taken over my mini Grendel. When he goes with me, that's what he wants. We've spent a fair amount of time shooting them both and I keep trying to talk him into carrying the mini ARC but he likes the Grendel. I'm pretty sure it's the name....
Who here has purpose built a Mini Grendel for their kids?
Wasn't purpose built, but my youngest has taken over my mini Grendel. When he goes with me, that's what he wants. We've spent a fair amount of time shooting them both and I keep trying to talk him into carrying the mini ARC but he likes the Grendel. I'm pretty sure it's the name....
Could you use a new in the wrapper Possum Hollow #326 bore guide specifically for the Mini Grendel?
NRA Endowed Patron Life Benefactor GOA Life Member TSRA Life Member NSCA Life Member
Who here has purpose built a Mini Grendel for their kids?
I wanted to, but the youth models were unavailable at the time so I got my grandson a 7.62x39 instead. No flies on that as a deer killer. He’s grown out of the stock, but I had MtnBoomer trim up a spare standard Hogue and paint it. Since, I’ve upgraded the Bushnell scope with a FFII, and replaced the magazine with a Wayne York floorplate.
They haven’t swapped the stock out yet so this year he’s using another Grandpa Special Howa, an Alpine .243. Got one down the other day.
My Mini Grendel sits in a Stockys carbon fiber stock, with the OG bottom metal. Wanting to keep it as light as possible, and also give me as much magnification as possible, I have a Bushnell 3200 3X9 on mine in Talley rings. The Grendel is not a long range cartridge, so the 3X9 is just about perfect for me.
I got a Howa gun with a Vortex Crossfire 6-18 I think. I’m not a Vortex fan, but it works so far. My bigger issue at the moment is I plan on replacing the Howa factory stock soon. I went with DIP bottom metal back in the summer and like it so far. I wanted a Jefferson optics or OGS bottom metal, but they were out of stock at the time.
I got a Howa gun with a Vortex Crossfire 6-18 I think. I’m not a Vortex fan, but it works so far. My bigger issue at the moment is I plan on replacing the Howa factory stock soon. I went with DIP bottom metal back in the summer and like it so far. I wanted a Jefferson optics or OGS bottom metal, but they were out of stock at the time.
I got a Howa gun with a Vortex Crossfire 6-18 I think. I’m not a Vortex fan, but it works so far. My bigger issue at the moment is I plan on replacing the Howa factory stock soon. I went with DIP bottom metal back in the summer and like it so far. I wanted a Jefferson optics or OGS bottom metal, but they were out of stock at the time.
How easy is the mag to remove now?
Is it pretty positive?
It’s in there, I had it fall out of the all plastic crap Howa puts on there. None since then.
I got a Howa gun with a Vortex Crossfire 6-18 I think. I’m not a Vortex fan, but it works so far. My bigger issue at the moment is I plan on replacing the Howa factory stock soon. I went with DIP bottom metal back in the summer and like it so far. I wanted a Jefferson optics or OGS bottom metal, but they were out of stock at the time.
How easy is the mag to remove now?
Is it pretty positive?
It’s in there, I had it fall out of the all plastic crap Howa puts on there. None since then.
Awesome!
Thanks. I have struggled with the original version. Glad you like it.
Who here has purpose built a Mini Grendel for their kids?
I bought a Howa Mini Action for my kids to use than put a Boyds laminate stock on it with a 12 or 12.5" LOP. They love it because of its low recoil and accuracy. They have since outgrown the stock, but with a slip-on pad they can use it again. May have to put the original stock back on. I scoped it with a Leupold 2-7 VX-R. They have taken several deer with it including this year.
I got a Howa gun with a Vortex Crossfire 6-18 I think. I’m not a Vortex fan, but it works so far. My bigger issue at the moment is I plan on replacing the Howa factory stock soon. I went with DIP bottom metal back in the summer and like it so far. I wanted a Jefferson optics or OGS bottom metal, but they were out of stock at the time.
How easy is the mag to remove now?
Is it pretty positive?
It’s in there, I had it fall out of the all plastic crap Howa puts on there. None since then.
I replaced the mag well on mine too. The mag was always falling out, but now it stays solidly in and drops out without a problem.
I have a Howa and a CZ. My CZ shoots circles around my Howa. But I’m going to cut the Howa down and thread it. I have a Stocky’s carbon fiber stock for it. I plan on putting a 2-7 or a 1.5-5 on it. It will make a good truck gun for checking pasture and seeing a coyote that needs to meet his maker. My CZ wears a 4-12 x at the moment. But it will be getting a 2-7 or 1.5-5 soon. I don’t like this scope I have on it.
I have two ARs to build and I’m thinking one should be a 6.5 Grendel. I kind of like the caliber.
I have a Howa and a CZ. My CZ shoots circles around my Howa.
I've always wanted to pick up one of those 527's, but they are getting harder to find. I remember seeing someone cutting down the factory magazines to sit flush--I think they ended up being 3 rounds after the mod.
It's hard for me to imagine a factory rifle shooting better than my mini Howa, but guns are individuals; out of curiosity, what kind of groups do your two 6.5's shoot?
I have a Howa and a CZ. My CZ shoots circles around my Howa.
I've always wanted to pick up one of those 527's, but they are getting harder to find. I remember seeing someone cutting down the factory magazines to sit flush--I think they ended up being 3 rounds after the mod.
It's hard for me to imagine a factory rifle shooting better than my mini Howa, but guns are individuals; out of curiosity, what kind of groups do your two 6.5's shoot?
I have a Howa and a CZ. My CZ shoots circles around my Howa.
I've always wanted to pick up one of those 527's, but they are getting harder to find. I remember seeing someone cutting down the factory magazines to sit flush--I think they ended up being 3 rounds after the mod.
It's hard for me to imagine a factory rifle shooting better than my mini Howa, but guns are individuals; out of curiosity, what kind of groups do your two 6.5's shoot?
CZ shoots 1 moa or less. Howa is 1.5 to 1.75 moa.
I have two CZ 527s in the Grendel and I have had just the opposite results with BOTH CZs. They shoot OK but not like I’ve come to expect from CZs (they are consecutive serial numbers so maybe I got Friday’s production??). The Howa easily outshoots these CZs - In all fairness I expect the CZ WILL shoot but I’m guessing the bedding and barrel channel will need a little work?
I have a Howa and a CZ. My CZ shoots circles around my Howa.
I've always wanted to pick up one of those 527's, but they are getting harder to find. I remember seeing someone cutting down the factory magazines to sit flush--I think they ended up being 3 rounds after the mod.
It's hard for me to imagine a factory rifle shooting better than my mini Howa, but guns are individuals; out of curiosity, what kind of groups do your two 6.5's shoot?
CZ shoots 1 moa or less. Howa is 1.5 to 1.75 moa.
I have two CZ 527s in the Grendel and I have had just the opposite results with BOTH CZs. They shoot OK but not like I’ve come to expect from CZs (they are consecutive serial numbers so maybe I got Friday’s production??). The Howa easily outshoots these CZs - In all fairness I expect the CZ WILL shoot but I’m guessing the bedding and barrel channel will need a little work?
PennDod
Not sure where you're located in PA, but if you want to only have one of those 527's in your arsenal, let me know... Could use a project.
That’s about how my Howa shoots - and thanks for the offer on the CZ - I bought them for my great nephews (hence the consecutive serial numbers)…….if we end up going a different direction (i.e. Howa) I will let you know.
That’s about how my Howa shoots - and thanks for the offer on the CZ - I bought them for my great nephews (hence the consecutive serial numbers)…….if we end up going a different direction (i.e. Howa) I will let you know.
Who here has purpose built a Mini Grendel for their kids?
I did this for their first couple seasons. Ruger far ranch in Mdt chassis, strike industries buffer tube, magpul ctr buttstock and moe-k grip, pulled the rail for talley low 1" rings and trijicon accupoint 3-9x40 green dot duplex. They land around 8 1/4 lbs but not letting the kids offhand stuff anyway and the weight let them watch everything in the scope with only 6.5 ft/lbs recoil energy. Had Kenton speed dial turret on it, they got kills at 300 and 355 by dad dialling them up for across the valley shots. Nice thing was I could extend the stock out and shoot also. On on of those dial up kills (the 355 yard) I grabbed rifle to fill a second tag at 420 yards. If you want a fit the entire family type set up and everyone can shoot it well...a grendel in a chassis without bulky rings/optics and butt stocks etc. then you can build a pretty sweet little do all set up. It's still one of our favourite rigs, killed a lot of stuff, they've grown up to handle same lop as me so we can go back to normal stocks etc. The green dot reticle was so inuitive for the kids, fast and easy.
I have a Howa and a CZ. My CZ shoots circles around my Howa.
I've always wanted to pick up one of those 527's, but they are getting harder to find. I remember seeing someone cutting down the factory magazines to sit flush--I think they ended up being 3 rounds after the mod.
It's hard for me to imagine a factory rifle shooting better than my mini Howa, but guns are individuals; out of curiosity, what kind of groups do your two 6.5's shoot?
CZ shoots 1 moa or less. Howa is 1.5 to 1.75 moa.
I have two CZ 527s in the Grendel and I have had just the opposite results with BOTH CZs. They shoot OK but not like I’ve come to expect from CZs (they are consecutive serial numbers so maybe I got Friday’s production??). The Howa easily outshoots these CZs - In all fairness I expect the CZ WILL shoot but I’m guessing the bedding and barrel channel will need a little work?
PennDod
I only had one of the CZs, but mine was a disappointment. My Mini OTOH, is a favorite. I really wanted to like the CZ, but when the Fieldcrafts appeared, I dropped it like a hot rock and put the money on the FC. Not long after, I got a screaming deal on the Howa and it was so satisfactory I had no hesitation spending a good bit on upgrading the stock and magazine to make it lighter and trimmer, as well as more functional. Later, I added a Carbon .223 and it only needed a new magazine setup.
I have a weaver grandslam tactical 3-10x40 iirc on the kids 6.5 mini. It was a special run for midway years back and has a mildot reticle with mil dials. It's just a 1" tube without a lot of adjustment to dial but it's enough for my 10 year old last year to send 129g ablrs far enough for what he was comfortable shooting.
I used it to shoot a coyote at about 300 and dialed it for range and it worked. I was looking in the scope pile for something light and relatively simple for him and found it new in the box. I think I bought it when midway closed them out. I wish I had a few more for my 7.62x39 and my other grendel. So many of my other scopes just seem too big on a little mini.
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
I think I'm finally happy with a scope on my ultralight mini project. Burris xt steel bases, weaver detach top mount 1" low rings, leupold fx2 fixed 2.5x ultralight. It's low, seems sized for the chipmunk size outfit and looks good.
Mine is a 22" cut to 18.5", action slabbed/fluted -3.0 oz, stocky's carbon, Jefferson bottom ends, hinged and cz detach mag. Pics can be found on instagram 65grendelhunters but you'll see I'm more partial to the ruger ranch, I built a few howa projects you'll see there, I built a cz 527 sweetheart there also...kept the ruger, and this howa may stay around but it has a cheap feel to it and mentally I can't shake it...even though it's got 3x-4x more money in it than the ruger out of the box I like the ruger way better, I'd never buy another howa, but for those who like projects and money pits...that's yer horse
Pardon my simply shooting it all and then some. Hint.
Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
You Whining Brokedicks "get" to read about it. Hint.
Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
What’s a good length to shorten the barrel? Mine is 22” and with Stockys carbon stock the rifle is really barrel heavy. I’m thinking 3” minimum, maybe 4 or 5 need to come off.
I'm looking at pretty much the exact same B&C stock for a Howa mini here. Mind if I ask what you think or for any other pictures, por favor?
Sorry, it seems as though a few questions have been left unanswered for a while.
My stock is a Pendleton Custom Stock made by Oregunsmithing. It weighs 20oz with bedding and thin steel pillars. It was supposed to be drop in ready but it wasn't fitting as well as I would prefer. It's light, strong, and I really like it.
I'm looking at pretty much the exact same B&C stock for a Howa mini here. Mind if I ask what you think or for any other pictures, por favor?
Sorry, it seems as though a few questions have been left unanswered for a while.
My stock is a Pendleton Custom Stock made by Oregunsmithing. It weighs 20oz with bedding and thin steel pillars. It was supposed to be drop in ready but it wasn't fitting as well as I would prefer. It's light, strong, and I really like it.
Thanks Dinny! I appreciate it!
But I'm a broken man on a Halifax pier, The last of Barrett's Privateers
Mine is cut down to 16 1/4 and the little redfield 2-7 is perfect for me. Rides just right in my scabbard.
That's sweet, that's what I'm leaning to...did you cut it yourself?
Yep. Hacksaw then a Brownells crowning tool.
Did you notice any change in accuracy (positive or negative) after cutting your barrel?
Thanks.
Frank
No change in accuracy when I chopped the barrel. It shot about 1 1/4" groups at 100 yds with my handloads before and after. When I swapped the plastic trigger guard and box mag for the Oregunsmithing metal unit it improved to just under 1" groups using the same load. Plenty accurate for my purpose so I called it good and never explored other loads.
the gentleman are definitely making some good looking weapons. I had a mini pretty early on when they first came out chambered in a 223. I just got one question for you guys have they fixed the issue where the magazine can be released a little too easily and lost?. I don't mind if you slung it over your back say on a four wheeler you could certainly bump the magazine released where you could lose a magazine. and those proprietary magazines were not cheap that was the biggest thing I had against mine. wasn't crazy about the small bolt handle. and I really didn't care for the stock getting less to be honest with you but it was okay. if they fix some of this issues you guys might have talked me into trying another one
the gentleman are definitely making some good looking weapons. I had a mini pretty early on when they first came out chambered in a 223. I just got one question for you guys have they fixed the issue where the magazine can be released a little too easily and lost?. I don't mind if you slung it over your back say on a four wheeler you could certainly bump the magazine released where you could lose a magazine. and those proprietary magazines were not cheap that was the biggest thing I had against mine. wasn't crazy about the small bolt handle. and I really didn't care for the stock getting less to be honest with you but it was okay. if they fix some of this issues you guys might have talked me into trying another one
I used a Jefferson Outdoors hinged floorplate on mine; makes that problem go away. Also makes the allowable COAL significantly longer (~2.45" IIRC).
What trigger are you guys using on the Minis? If stock, did you clip a coil off the spring? How about brass and dies? I have the pieces coming my way. Looks like the Pendleton stock is going to be the long wait (3 months).
Honestly don’t recall what I ordered, and while it’s right here with me, I can’t be certain what the webbing color is. It’s probably supposed to be white, but it appears to have a cream-colored cast to it. Whatever it is, I like it a lot, and unlike the carbon model on my .223, it feels almost warm on my cheek, not like putting my head down on a formica countertop. If I ever spring for another Mini, I’ll go with another Pendleton for certain. Meanwhile, the carbon’s getting some paint…..
fshaw, I clipped a coil on one and bought a spring pack for the other. Having tried both, just clip a coil, I can't tell a difference and couldn't tell you which is which at this point.
fshaw, I clipped a coil on one and bought a spring pack for the other. Having tried both, just clip a coil, I can't tell a difference and couldn't tell you which is which at this point.
I have clipped some of the spring off on quite a few of those Howa triggers, and it works.
Teal, i have a couple .243s and a 6x45. Pretty much have the 6mm thing covered. Years ago I wanted to buils a 6PPC deer rifle but at the time there were no bolt repeaters that would feed reliably, hence the 6x45. It looks like my PPC will be a 6.5PPC. If I didn’t already have the other rifles it’d be a 6ARC. My 6x45 is on a Bofors 461 and it it is a favorite, even with its case capacity limitations. The Adirondacks are big woods, short range country so BC doesn’t give much advantage here. I shoot Norma Oryx or 95gr Partitions out of it. Works pretty well.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America. Everything under 120 gr and 6.5 mm is niche. Some of it crosses over in t the .257 and 6mm with heavy for cal etc and does well but still niche all the same.
As a hunter if you’re gonna burn 30 grains of powder the ultimate way is the 6.5 Grendel.
So that’s why. Don’t even bother taking it any further, that is the answer.
You’re welcome.
For niche roles fill your boots, the 6 arc and 22 arc are there for those people also and 7.62x39. The 6.5 Grendel is legit 400 yard for everything formula, sd, bc, over 120 gr. The rest are niche options.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America. Everything under 120 gr and 6.5 mm is niche. Some of it crosses over in t the .257 and 6mm with heavy for cal etc and does well but still niche all the same.
As a hunter if you’re gonna burn 30 grains of powder the ultimate way is the 6.5 Grendel.
So that’s why. Don’t even bother taking it any further, that is the answer.
You’re welcome.
For niche roles fill your boots, the 6 arc and 22 arc are there for those people also and 7.62x39. The 6.5 Grendel is legit 400 yard for everything formula, sd, bc, over 120 gr. The rest are niche options.
. Some would say that Grendel is a niche cartridge. What niche ? It can fit into an AR magazine box. Is there a better way to launch 6.5mm pills ?
The 6.5 Creedmoor loads have 8-11″ less bullet drop at 500 yards and retain approximately 20-50% more energy down range than the 6.5 Grendel
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America. Everything under 120 gr and 6.5 mm is niche. Some of it crosses over in t the .257 and 6mm with heavy for cal etc and does well but still niche all the same.
As a hunter if you’re gonna burn 30 grains of powder the ultimate way is the 6.5 Grendel.
So that’s why. Don’t even bother taking it any further, that is the answer.
You’re welcome.
For niche roles fill your boots, the 6 arc and 22 arc are there for those people also and 7.62x39. The 6.5 Grendel is legit 400 yard for everything formula, sd, bc, over 120 gr. The rest are niche options.
Color me shocked them at all the deer that routinely fall to the 243 with a 105/108 and literally never need tracking.
There you have it. The world according to stinkycoyote.
I ended up with a 6.5 Grendel instead of an ARC because I got a good price on it.
And I ended up with mine because the 6 ARC wasn’t around at the time. Might very well have gone ARC given that I have lots of 6mm bullets around. I do suspect the Grendel might have a slight edge on black bears, possible here, if not likely. Anyway, I have a 6CM, if something needs a .24 caliber hole…
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America.
What's your source for this comment?
The entire North American discussion themes on all forums and all discussions no online. 7-08 120gr is a common one, some 6.5 120 talk, 6.5x55 around forever but almost always with heavier, 270 at 130. But 25-06 and roberts always considered niche, the .243 of course. So the general accepted actual big game do all minimum standard is 120’s. My source is 30-40 years of paying attention. Everything under 120 has been considered a niche round.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America. Everything under 120 gr and 6.5 mm is niche. Some of it crosses over in t the .257 and 6mm with heavy for cal etc and does well but still niche all the same.
As a hunter if you’re gonna burn 30 grains of powder the ultimate way is the 6.5 Grendel.
So that’s why. Don’t even bother taking it any further, that is the answer.
You’re welcome.
For niche roles fill your boots, the 6 arc and 22 arc are there for those people also and 7.62x39. The 6.5 Grendel is legit 400 yard for everything formula, sd, bc, over 120 gr. The rest are niche options.
. Some would say that Grendel is a niche cartridge. What niche ? It can fit into an AR magazine box. Is there a better way to launch 6.5mm pills ?
The 6.5 Creedmoor loads have 8-11″ less bullet drop at 500 yards and retain approximately 20-50% more energy down range than the 6.5 Grendel
For a long time a 30-30 considered not niche and especially with 170’s for class 3 game and everything we typically hunt. Same powder burned and the 123 6.5 has same sd as a 168 gr 30 cal but you triple the effective distance of the 30-30. People may call it niche but it has class 3 game sd like a 30-30 170 only it can stay 1800 fps to 400+ yards even from a 16” barrel, a 24” barrel adds 120 yards. People kill bull elk to 405 and guys have daughters kill big muley bucks at 658 and another guy killed an antelope at 752.
So while on its face the 6.5 Grendel 123 may sound niche it’s not. Everything else on that case is. Big game including class 3 can be dumped to 400+ and I’d run it against a 7-08 120 all day. You compromise with anything .257 or 6mm as you just don’t get enough bullet even though 103/108’s do get there on sd and will work it still under 120 gr...still niche, almost there on the numbers but being under 120 isn’t enough. So you end up with a crossover target varmint niches like every other 6mm. The odd guy dives then well on everything but niche to the mass consciousness.
We just ran Grendel 123 on alberta big game for 6 seasons, 7 species, 20 animals, 10-420 yards, 160-165 yard average shot distance and average recovery distance around 10 yards. Not niche. Bottom end of proper big game like a 30-30 170...the 150 called a deer round.
Chew on it for a minute before you try to argue it lol. If hunting is the consideration then the 6.5 Grendel is the best choice. The question posed was that or arc. If hunting isn’t primary consideration then go with any arc etc.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America.
What's your source for this comment?
The entire North American discussion themes on all forums and all discussions no online. 7-08 120gr is a common one, some 6.5 120 talk, 6.5x55 around forever but almost always with heavier, 270 at 130. But 25-06 and roberts always considered niche, the .243 of course. So the general accepted actual big game do all minimum standard is 120’s. My source is 30-40 years of paying attention. Everything under 120 has been considered a niche round.
So you don't actually have a source, the 120 grain minimum is just something you came up with from your imagination.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America.
What's your source for this comment?
The entire North American discussion themes on all forums and all discussions no online. 7-08 120gr is a common one, some 6.5 120 talk, 6.5x55 around forever but almost always with heavier, 270 at 130. But 25-06 and roberts always considered niche, the .243 of course. So the general accepted actual big game do all minimum standard is 120’s. My source is 30-40 years of paying attention. Everything under 120 has been considered a niche round.
So you don't actually have a source, the 120 grain minimum is just something you came up with from your imagination.
Kids these days, don’t listen well, was 6 seasons, 20 animals, 7 species to 420 yards on alberta big game from just me and my kids isn’t enough eh? Or the near 40 years of all of North America saying what I’m saying every time you hear things asked on forums and gun counters.
But you need a link? Hahaha, bruh. That’s funny, thanks for the laugh, knew where that was headed and you walked right into it. The sheer volume of links available would need ai to capture them all to give to you. You’ll be busy for awhile learning...learning exactly what I just told you.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America.
What's your source for this comment?
The entire North American discussion themes on all forums and all discussions no online. 7-08 120gr is a common one, some 6.5 120 talk, 6.5x55 around forever but almost always with heavier, 270 at 130. But 25-06 and roberts always considered niche, the .243 of course. So the general accepted actual big game do all minimum standard is 120’s. My source is 30-40 years of paying attention. Everything under 120 has been considered a niche round.
So you don't actually have a source, the 120 grain minimum is just something you came up with from your imagination.
Negative ghost rider. Thanks to me you’ll now be paying attention to all threads and discussions for this very thing I’ve been paying attention to for decades.
You’re welcome. The answer exists and I just happen to be a more astute student. No biggie, don’t get any hurt feelers. I didn’t say the arc couldn’t kill stuff, I just said for hunting the answer is the same for all 6.5 vs 6mm questions. Not sure why any of you wouldn’t connect that dot. I speak fluent ballistics, inflight and terminal boys, so what I’m pointing out is...there is a crossover point where the bb is just too small to be accepted on mass scale as legit hunting. All I’ve done is point it out. If you also were astute lifelong students fully fluent in terminal and inflight ballistics then none of this would be a surprise.
Again...you are all welcome.
Now everyone can choose what’s best for them because all the answers are here. Just as they are in every 6.5 vs 6 thread. Easy really
Just because mass isn’t directly talked about in this way doesn’t mean the line isn’t indirectly understood in the mass consciousness. It is. If you pay attention. Which I have for decades. Go ahead and use chat whatever and ask it lol. Let’s see what it thinks of my observations and ability to verbalize that lifelong study.
You’re all welcome. A new, yet accurate, perspective to understand going forward.
Lastly, if you haven’t been killing with either to see for yourselves then maybe slow your roll because that question is coming next.
When you come to a forum full of people that will start arguing over a picture of a rock you have to be thorough to put an end of discussion response down. Showing you whippersnappers how that’s done also. Now you can start arguing about other things but Grendel vs arc was easy to answer like any other 6.5 vs 6 thread. Always start with the bullet. Never the cartridge and never the caliber, those things come after.
When you come to a forum full of people that will start arguing over a picture of a rock you have to be thorough to put an end of discussion response down. Showing you whippersnappers how that’s done also. Now you can start arguing about other things but Grendel vs arc was easy to answer like any other 6.5 vs 6 thread. Always start with the bullet. Never the cartridge and never the caliber, those things come after.
Says a guy that doesn’t handload. You couldn’t start with anything unless someone put it together for you stinky. You are truly a hoot.
Many hunters have a minimum 120 gr bullet threshold as a legit big game hunting minimum. You can see this as a silent law or rule of thumb though out North America.
What's your source for this comment?
The entire North American discussion themes on all forums and all discussions no online. 7-08 120gr is a common one, some 6.5 120 talk, 6.5x55 around forever but almost always with heavier, 270 at 130. But 25-06 and roberts always considered niche, the .243 of course. So the general accepted actual big game do all minimum standard is 120’s. My source is 30-40 years of paying attention. Everything under 120 has been considered a niche round.
I'd be curious to hear about your big game hunting experience with 6mms and 25s that would lead you to believe that the 6.5 120 is a minimum standard.
When you come to a forum full of people that will start arguing over a picture of a rock you have to be thorough to put an end of discussion response down. Showing you whippersnappers how that’s done also. Now you can start arguing about other things but Grendel vs arc was easy to answer like any other 6.5 vs 6 thread. Always start with the bullet. Never the cartridge and never the caliber, those things come after.
Says a guy that doesn’t handload. You couldn’t start with anything unless someone put it together for you stinky. You are truly a hoot.
yes my theme has been consistent throughout all forum speak, I speak to the broader audience of hunters and shooters, they don't reload, so without caveating every single post with the obvious, these discussions should always be about good ole saami off the shelf everything, right? right
everyone knows reloading can make just about any cartridge cover twice the versatility range, maybe quadruple actually, of any off the shelf stuff...do you reloaders have a taller horse and forget the audience on these Internet forums? speak to the levels or caveat yer sh1t
anyway, thanks, you're a hoot in your own way also
as for the 6mm guy, several .243's...and this grendel 123gr combo has been every bit it's equal or more while burning quite a bit less powder because when you start with the bullet and understand the formula for that bullet to get most out of it for game intended then there's no surprises or arguments, and actually I'm getting shorter recoveries and more drt's than I was with things much stronger than the .243, .270's and .270 wsm with 140 accubonds I ran the most...so try to question me on terminal ballistics, how to apply formulas for task at hand, good luck with that, been at this awhile and when you can take that knowledge and to 6 seasons straight on 20 animals and 7 species in Alberta with just one thing that people seem to struggle with....well, go find out yourself then, I'm not just talking about it, have been doing it for years, I did the talking long before I did it, we're waaaaay past that now
start with the bullet
if you reload, you can make a 6mm pretty ok, the creed and arc can now do 6mm off the shelf pretty ok, but none of their heavy for cal can get over 120 grains and hunting lands inside certain distances that will make the 6.5 creed/grendels better hunting options than all 6mm niche comparisons...I didn't say 6mm was bad choice in this sh1tshow, just that for hunting...if that's your priority, 6.5 wins every day and you can even do it off the shelf with these moderns, you don't need to reload anymore to play at the peak of inflight and terminal ballistics, so, if you do more steel and varmints....6mm is you jam, if you primarily chase big game...and you haven't fallen for the latest marketed hype train then you'll end up choosing the 6.5 as the ultimate between them, try to deflect or argue or whatever...I answered correctly and decisively and yet the hurt feelers will still come along to argue over a rock lol
if you reload, you can make a 6mm pretty ok, the creed and arc can now do 6mm off the shelf pretty ok, but none of their heavy for cal can get over 120 grains and hunting lands inside certain distances that will make the 6.5 creed/grendels better hunting options than all 6mm niche comparisons...I didn't say 6mm was bad choice in this sh1tshow, just that for hunting...if that's your priority, 6.5 wins every day and you can even do it off the shelf with these moderns, you don't need to reload anymore to play at the peak of inflight and terminal ballistics, so, if you do more steel and varmints....6mm is you jam, if you primarily chase big game...and you haven't fallen for the latest marketed hype train then you'll end up choosing the 6.5 as the ultimate between them, try to deflect or argue or whatever...I answered correctly and decisively and yet the hurt feelers will still come along to argue over a rock lol
Ignoring the rest of the bullshit attempted enlightenment you've shared, your contention is that a light for caliber bullet at moderate velocities (123 gr @ 6.5 Grendel velo) is hands down superior to heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities (108 gr @ 6 ARC velo)?
So you don't have any experience with the 6mm ARC, yet declare it lacking compared to the vaunted 6.5 Grendel because of your magical 120 grain minimum. Got it.
if you reload, you can make a 6mm pretty ok, the creed and arc can now do 6mm off the shelf pretty ok, but none of their heavy for cal can get over 120 grains and hunting lands inside certain distances that will make the 6.5 creed/grendels better hunting options than all 6mm niche comparisons...I didn't say 6mm was bad choice in this sh1tshow, just that for hunting...if that's your priority, 6.5 wins every day and you can even do it off the shelf with these moderns, you don't need to reload anymore to play at the peak of inflight and terminal ballistics, so, if you do more steel and varmints....6mm is you jam, if you primarily chase big game...and you haven't fallen for the latest marketed hype train then you'll end up choosing the 6.5 as the ultimate between them, try to deflect or argue or whatever...I answered correctly and decisively and yet the hurt feelers will still come along to argue over a rock lol
Ignoring the rest of the bullshit attempted enlightenment you've shared, your contention is that a light for caliber bullet at moderate velocities (123 gr @ 6.5 Grendel velo) is hands down superior to heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities (108 gr @ 6 ARC velo)?
well, are we still talking about hunting right, as that's where I said one of these things is better than the other and here's why...formula is sectional density, construction, impact velocity for game intended, hunting, even long range hunting only a moderate amount can consistently kill at 450 and very few at 600, while the grendel has antelope at 752 and muley bucks at 658 etc. these will be the very few and those guys will drive the arc as well or better way out there on game but that isn't the general consensus audience on an Internet forum or anywhere in hunting land either so we will be realistic about it...those added speeds and slight bc/sd advantages help more niche target varmint stuff, not big game hunting
drilling down further then, to the formula, eld-m with high sd is rapid expansion construction, paired best with moderate velocity cartridges the formula doesn't tear apart the bullet too fast to still penetrate deeply on game intended, the 6.5 Grendel 123 actually hits the window perfectly from muzzle to 500 for eld-m....the 6 arc 108 pushes that window another 150-170 yards out....(niche distances) and therefore hampers where the actual majority of things are killed by being a little too fast up front, less penetration and on top of that already less bullet mass to frag and open up etc. so you will see more consistent penetration depths from muzzle to 500 on the grendel, the arc will hit that window better from 200-700, so you give up at a very important end where actually 98% of the actually happens in hunting to have it on the end where very few can consistently kill anything...anyway, hopefully that starts one thinking about these things a little more as you work this stuff out from 40,000' not just 'well it has the highest bc so it must be the best' lol...way more to it than that, while it may appear due to the higher starting sd of the 108 it will go as deep as the 123...not at the muzzle to 200, the 123 likely out penetrate it as it's not coming apart as violently...the 108 eld-m will do it's best work 200-700 and still only do it with 108 gr not 123 gr
so are we splitting hairs here? yes, can the .223 77gr tmk rokslide special kill well to 400 also? sure, is it done there? could be, most hunters are but the 6.5 grendel has clocked impressive kills well beyond that, the arc would be my choice over the .223 also, but when all 3 are available...the best formula for 0-500 yard hunting is in the .252 sd, .5 bc, 123gr, eld-m from that case, rather than slightly better bc/sd numbers and lower mass at higher velocity from the 6arc....
long way around of saying why people will always over suggest the 6.5 over 6mm for hunting regardless the case...why the 6mm will always be niche in comparison, always has, always will, I didn't say you won't kill but the question was asked which is better, if even a c-hair...I'm telling some of the reasons why, still wanna argue about it? go ahead...you've got enough to work with, make your own choices lol
you guys get hung up on speeds and bc's...there's more to the magic formula than that
So you don't have any experience with the 6mm ARC, yet declare it lacking compared to the vaunted 6.5 Grendel because of your magical 120 grain minimum. Got it.
we all make lists of requirements before we get into things, since hunting is my jam the 120 gr was minimum, .5 bc was minimum and .25 sd was minimum to have 21st century inflight ballistics(range potential/hit probability), as I did also a lot of predator calling looking for lighter recoil and kids on the way (they drive now lol) I was looking for a 'do all' minimum with hunting focus period, steel doesn't compute, and predator calling here includes wolves cougars and bears...so the .22 cals were out as we need 6mm or better for legality but makes sense for Alberta hunting period...so we start at the 6mm and look up from there, no 6mm bullet makes the non-niche weight I was after of minimum 120 gr, I'd shot lots with .243's and just wasn't there for me, shot lots with lots bigger also, my formula for said hunting after shooting tough bullets, squishy bullets, high and low speeds had dulled down to more the efficiency spectrum of rapid expansion higher sd driven slower to get more drt/and short recoveries than I'd seen from the 'just in case' formulas of higher hp and tougher bullets and proved it 6 years, no surprises, only pleasant ones, call it over achiever or just the best balanced
so that bullet was looked at hard then the right case to drive it slow enough ended up being the x39 case, anything else would be faster than I want for that type of construction for game intended, example relations would be 140's or better from the creed and 168's from the 308...recoil levels keep going up, extra not needed to kill how I wanted to kill in the distances hunters kill, and since had the other goals of minimum end of things the x39 case and that 123 had the perfect formula/blend/most efficient from muzzle to 500 to do it all, we have moose, sheep, black bears, mule deer, whitetails, wolf, coyotes...to 420 yards, 20 things, average shot distance 160-165 yards and average recovery distance ~10 yards, shorter than most of my .270 and .270 wsm 140 gr accubond kills...so it's not all numbers, it's how you read and apply them
make your list however you like, I did, and it worked perfect for 6 years, 20 animals, 7 species
walked, then talked, then walked the talk, now talking about it...you don't have to like it, the world of big game hunting bears out the most minimum recommendation you'll see from 7mm down is 120 gr as an accepted legit big game bullet weight, sometimes you see it in the 6.5's also, the .270 130 is another in that node, most 6.5 however tend to run heavier but it's got way better sd than 7mm so to me the 120 in 7 is the worst option but is still seen as a legit big game bullet...absolutely nothing in 6mm gets the universal acceptance or understanding...don't cry about it, I loved the 6mm forever, I like a ton about it, fantasized about many plus 100 gr potential builds, but only until the 123 gr a-max came around lol, which became the eld-m....after that it was just blind luck that someone had it in a case that makes more sense than a standard short action case to slow it down where it would work the best, I had to wait a long time to get that off the shelf, 2017/18 finally...and 6 years later, here we are
you're welcome to that experience, take whatever you want or don't want from it
someone asked best between grendel and arc, I say for what? if hunting then argument switches not from grendel to arc but 6.5 to 6, 6.5 always wins, given adequate formula the bigger heavier bullet always wins, always has always will, if your need is more blended in the target varmint world the 6 always seems to win, although I've read for the guys like to play to around 700 yards they went back to grendel from arc for better audibles and miss visible from the 123....so it's very very limited where the 6mm is advantageous to the 6.5
drilling down further then, to the formula, eld-m with high sd is rapid expansion construction, paired best with moderate velocity cartridges the formula doesn't tear apart the bullet too fast to still penetrate deeply on game intended, the 6.5 Grendel 123 actually hits the window perfectly from muzzle to 500 for eld-m....the 6 arc 108 pushes that window another 150-170 yards out....(niche distances) and therefore hampers where the actual majority of things are killed by being a little too fast up front, less penetration and on top of that already less bullet mass to frag and open up etc. so you will see more consistent penetration depths from muzzle to 500 on the grendel, the arc will hit that window better from 200-700, so you give up at a very important end where actually 98% of the actually happens in hunting to have it on the end where very few can consistently kill anything...anyway, hopefully that starts one thinking about these things a little more as you work this stuff out from 40,000' not just 'well it has the highest bc so it must be the best' lol...way more to it than that, while it may appear due to the higher starting sd of the 108 it will go as deep as the 123...not at the muzzle to 200, the 123 likely out penetrate it as it's not coming apart as violently...the 108 eld-m will do it's best work 200-700 and still only do it with 108 gr not 123 gr
This is all complete and utter horseschit because you've never used the 6mm ARC/108 to know how it will perform.
if you reload, you can make a 6mm pretty ok, the creed and arc can now do 6mm off the shelf pretty ok, but none of their heavy for cal can get over 120 grains and hunting lands inside certain distances that will make the 6.5 creed/grendels better hunting options than all 6mm niche comparisons...I didn't say 6mm was bad choice in this sh1tshow, just that for hunting...if that's your priority, 6.5 wins every day and you can even do it off the shelf with these moderns, you don't need to reload anymore to play at the peak of inflight and terminal ballistics, so, if you do more steel and varmints....6mm is you jam, if you primarily chase big game...and you haven't fallen for the latest marketed hype train then you'll end up choosing the 6.5 as the ultimate between them, try to deflect or argue or whatever...I answered correctly and decisively and yet the hurt feelers will still come along to argue over a rock lol
Ignoring the rest of the bullshit attempted enlightenment you've shared, your contention is that a light for caliber bullet at moderate velocities (123 gr @ 6.5 Grendel velo) is hands down superior to heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities (108 gr @ 6 ARC velo)?
well, are we still talking about hunting right, as that's where I said one of these things is better than the other and here's why...formula is sectional density, construction, impact velocity for game intended
drilling down further then, to the formula, eld-m with high sd is rapid expansion construction, paired best with moderate velocity cartridges the formula doesn't tear apart the bullet too fast to still penetrate deeply on game intended, the 6.5 Grendel 123 actually hits the window perfectly from muzzle to 500 for eld-m....the 6 arc 108 pushes that window another 150-170 yards out....(niche distances) and therefore hampers where the actual majority of things are killed by being a little too fast up front, less penetration and on top of that already less bullet mass to frag and open up etc. so you will see more consistent penetration depths from muzzle to 500 on the grendel, the arc will hit that window better from 200-700, so you give up at a very important end where actually 98% of the actually happens in hunting to have it on the end where very few can consistently kill anything...anyway, hopefully that starts one thinking about these things a little more as you work this stuff out from 40,000' not just 'well it has the highest bc so it must be the best' lol...way more to it than that, while it may appear due to the higher starting sd of the 108 it will go as deep as the 123...not at the muzzle to 200, the 123 likely out penetrate it as it's not coming apart as violently...the 108 eld-m will do it's best work 200-700 and still only do it with 108 gr not 123 gr
What is this magic formula? SD and impact velocity are numbers. How are you representing construction as a number in this "formula"?
How many animals have you killed at like yardages to compare terminal results of 6mm 108 gr projectiles vs. 6.5mm 123 gr projectiles?
You go first with your experiences with both. Include impact velocities please. I’ve documented 6 years worth of personal kills along with some key kills from others with recovered bullets and impact velocities to show the range of the eld-m to back up what I’m saying. If ya have Instagram head over to 65grendelhunters to see what I’ve been doing and for how long. Then go ahead and share your experience and limited understanding of terminal ballistics. Everything needing to be said has been said, can’t make you understand it lol.
We had to split the c-hair so now it’s split. Or are you the reasons for the pointy urinals? Size does matter, despite what your person tells you. All joking aside you nut job 6mm fanboys. I freaking love the 108 numbers and if I had to shoot a 6mm I would and it would work fine. There’s simply just a better option for a hunter in the 30gr powder class for the eld-m and hunting as primary. 6.5 always wins, always will...common knowledge so not sure why you’re still arguing? Picture of a rock and people here will argue about it.
You’ll see in my page a recovered eld-m from sharp quartering whitetail with 100 gr retained weight of the total bits. About 81% retained. Now if your 108 impacted same speed it would be 87 grains left but it wouldn’t impact same speed at 200 would it? So rather than go full 18” like mine did yours would lose it’s sd faster and penetrate shallower. You would still have killed the deer. When we start talking about moose and elk now and wanting to maximize penetration on the eldm the slowing it down and adding some mass is the better formula. Choose whatever you like. From 0-500 the Grendel 123 is the ultimate choice for this end of spectrum and big game hunting. The 108 looks best from 200-700 but feels light for the class 3 game. It will work but one lines up better in every way. Hunting is a 0-500 for the masses. In the 500 yard window of eldm goodness the Grendel will have most consistent and reliable performance across that window in the range of actual hunting muzzle to 500. Start using that stuff between your ears better and visualize it because we don’t have terminal ballistics calculators yet to show us this stuff. Some can do this better than others. 😉
So to pare down Stinky's argument, it is "because I say so". The numbers matter but they don't matter, unless they do matter, when I decide they matter. Think about it.
Sort of. Should have demonstrated by now I’ve been studying ballistics tables since is was 12 and a top student since and applied along the way. You don’t have to hear my experience or what I’ve learned. I’m 50 now. It’s there for all to do whatever they like with. What did you expect a 6.5 Grendel vs 6 arc thread question would look like?
Glad we worked this out though and it didn’t need to go 100 pages deep like anything with big stick does lol.
You could not really make a bad choice in the 30gr powder class between these two, they are getting the most from the powder in the class. Figure out what’s most important to you and giver. I’m glad they both exist as they will boost each other’s success and keep ammo on shelves. Very deserving and efficient 21st century cartridges.
6Arc vs 6.5 Grendel thread? I sure don't remember reading that in the OP. Nor did he mention anything about hunting. He was actually asking about what scope to put on it. A bit of A.D.D. going on in this thread.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
Pardon my simply shooting it all and then some. Hint................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Ah yes, a true expurt in the field. Suspect if you actually used a 6 ARC/108 you'd find that it does the same thing as a 6.5 Grendel.
I would go along with that, we are picking fly sh1t out of pepper here. But maybe if a guy is choosing and is curious, like Teal was, with ALL this perspective and experience he can make the best choice for him? Capiche?
I can say if you were to look at a ton of dead things without knowing what formula actually shot them you'd have a hard time being able to tell most of it. What you would be able to tell is if it was a rapid expansion construction formula vs a delayed controlled expansion formula, that's about it. There's impressive stuff on the rokslide .223 thread from 77 gr tmk...it's running the bottom end of this high sd, rapid expansion more moderate velocity formula and they are sort of trying to disappear the bullet over the 14-19" they may see...not much left of it, 20-30 grains so the grenade is real and does the job and makes a mess. You're going to see similar with all these munchkin cartridges. If you're ok with that and say and upper 400 yard limit the .223 cool. The 6 arc and 6.5 grendel upper limits are beyond that imo and many want to see more bullet left after it does it's work. If we had the calculators...and we don't...for discussion purposes only and have to use your imagination...the 6 arc and 6.5 grendel I think you'd find a deeper penetration window although the arc to 200 likely more explosive and then from 200-700 more consistently predictable, where the grendel is in the window from 0-500 and you can expect as much bullet back as the .223 option would start with even up close...if you don't get an exit. I don't get to recover many from the grendel, not broadside or moderate quartering, must be steep quartering or lengthwise, it's a predictable 20" reliable from basically muzzle to 500.
We will have these zillion page arguments on terminal ballistics until we get calculators up to same levels of inflight ballistics which we can place bullets into milk jugs at a couple miles now but look at the gong show rodeo's we get talking about when the bullet starts swimming!
We still haven't developed sectional density reduction rate per inch cross referenced with energy per inch dump rate and developed standardized testing to show us what to reliably predict between all bullet choices at various impact velocities etc. We don't speak in 'that's a 16" set up at 60 ft/lbs per inch, you may want to look for a 30" at 100 ft/lbs per inch set up for your Alaska moose hunt etc.?? And one cartridge can go from coyotes to moose so it's about the bullet, the finished bullet and it's related travel is yet to be studied. I've banged on about this since 2020. Studying wound channels and trying to objective that was the wrong direction. First guy through the wall gets bloody. Still waiting for a call from Hornady to give me unlimited gel budget and develop this out lol. Although a team of azzholes likely better, rate of spin be a factor that could include to show what internal to expect? Could be a couple extra factors to be thought of to explain the grenade or lack there of inside. But for sure the sdrr and err need to be looked at the most.
So again, don't have to listen to me, but hopefully I've put some new perspective out there to get your own smoke to start coming out your ears and you make better choices going forward. If you have an arc you'll be fine, if you have the choice...and hunting is the primary...may wanna look at that 123gr pill for most consistent 0-500 yard performance...the arc is a little fast for the cup/cores in the first 200 imo.
I think big stick is feeling a little left out, he's tried to play terminal ballistics talk before but he can't...not enough fire between the ears to make any smoke, but his little chirps are cute. Stay in your lane stick, you have product to bash so you can sell other product lol.
I suspect if we do develop out the terminal ballistics calculators to same 21st century levels we have with inflight ballistics...there will be so much crossover that a lot of cartridges will start to disappear. Maybe that's why the manufacturers aren't going there? Hmmm
would be good for us, maybe bad for them? although they will just end up selling more of less items and we will find everything on shelves and more affordably? lets do it lol
There's impressive stuff on the rokslide .223 thread from 77 gr tmk...it's running the bottom end of this high sd, rapid expansion more moderate velocity formula and they are sort of trying to disappear the bullet over the 14-19" they may see...not much left of it, 20-30 grains so the grenade is real and does the job and makes a mess. You're going to see similar with all these munchkin cartridges. If you're ok with that and say and upper 400 yard limit the .223 cool.
There you go again, guessing about stuff you read on the internet.
Ah yes, a true expurt in the field. Suspect if you actually used a 6 ARC/108 you'd find that it does the same thing as a 6.5 Grendel.
I would go along with that, we are picking fly sh1t out of pepper here. But maybe if a guy is choosing and is curious, like Teal was, with ALL this perspective and experience he can make the best choice for him? Capiche?
I can say if you were to look at a ton of dead things without knowing what formula actually shot them you'd have a hard time being able to tell most of it. What you would be able to tell is if it was a rapid expansion construction formula vs a delayed controlled expansion formula, that's about it. There's impressive stuff on the rokslide .223 thread from 77 gr tmk...it's running the bottom end of this high sd, rapid expansion more moderate velocity formula and they are sort of trying to disappear the bullet over the 14-19" they may see...not much left of it, 20-30 grains so the grenade is real and does the job and makes a mess. You're going to see similar with all these munchkin cartridges. If you're ok with that and say and upper 400 yard limit the .223 cool. The 6 arc and 6.5 grendel upper limits are beyond that imo and many want to see more bullet left after it does it's work. If we had the calculators...and we don't...for discussion purposes only and have to use your imagination...the 6 arc and 6.5 grendel I think you'd find a deeper penetration window although the arc to 200 likely more explosive and then from 200-700 more consistently predictable, where the grendel is in the window from 0-500 and you can expect as much bullet back as the .223 option would start with even up close...if you don't get an exit. I don't get to recover many from the grendel, not broadside or moderate quartering, must be steep quartering or lengthwise, it's a predictable 20" reliable from basically muzzle to 500.
We will have these zillion page arguments on terminal ballistics until we get calculators up to same levels of inflight ballistics which we can place bullets into milk jugs at a couple miles now but look at the gong show rodeo's we get talking about when the bullet starts swimming!
We still haven't developed sectional density reduction rate per inch cross referenced with energy per inch dump rate and developed standardized testing to show us what to reliably predict between all bullet choices at various impact velocities etc. We don't speak in 'that's a 16" set up at 60 ft/lbs per inch, you may want to look for a 30" at 100 ft/lbs per inch set up for your Alaska moose hunt etc.?? And one cartridge can go from coyotes to moose so it's about the bullet, the finished bullet and it's related travel is yet to be studied. I've banged on about this since 2020. Studying wound channels and trying to objective that was the wrong direction. First guy through the wall gets bloody. Still waiting for a call from Hornady to give me unlimited gel budget and develop this out lol. Although a team of azzholes likely better, rate of spin be a factor that could include to show what internal to expect? Could be a couple extra factors to be thought of to explain the grenade or lack there of inside. But for sure the sdrr and err need to be looked at the most.
So again, don't have to listen to me, but hopefully I've put some new perspective out there to get your own smoke to start coming out your ears and you make better choices going forward. If you have an arc you'll be fine, if you have the choice...and hunting is the primary...may wanna look at that 123gr pill for most consistent 0-500 yard performance...the arc is a little fast for the cup/cores in the first 200 imo.
I think big stick is feeling a little left out, he's tried to play terminal ballistics talk before but he can't...not enough fire between the ears to make any smoke, but his little chirps are cute. Stay in your lane stick, you have product to bash so you can sell other product lol.
I hope you are in a profession where you get paid by the word.
You poor bastard lol. You can’t keep up anywhere, you’re a dollar short day late guy, it irks you so you bark. You’re kinda like big stick, in the deep end and forgot your water wings. Not sure where you fit in but yer gonna try anyway.
And no bro, I data mine and make use of that data for a living, imagine that lol. I didn’t always that was always more of a passion and how my brain is wired, I mostly twisted wrenches, but funny how you get to sometimes do what your brain is wired for sometimes. Excel not word, just happened to take typing through high school but not really because I wanted to type, had them all to myself lol. Call me dumb now eh? 😉
You’re not ready for this level of discussion around terminal ballistics. Take your curtsy and bow out while you can. It’s embarrassing to watch people bark insults or poke fun because they don’t have any water wings.
Go ahead and tell us how a couple fractions of added bc/sd plus speed on a frangible construction bullet is better for hunting than something slower and heavier but still has more than adequate numbers for hunting. I’m all ears
There's impressive stuff on the rokslide .223 thread from 77 gr tmk...it's running the bottom end of this high sd, rapid expansion more moderate velocity formula and they are sort of trying to disappear the bullet over the 14-19" they may see...not much left of it, 20-30 grains so the grenade is real and does the job and makes a mess. You're going to see similar with all these munchkin cartridges. If you're ok with that and say and upper 400 yard limit the .223 cool.
There you go again, guessing about stuff you read on the internet.
Negative ghost rider. Had been walking that walk long before I ever heard of the .223 thread. But unlike so many who couldn’t wrap their head around it could work I was already there and doing the same thing. And as you can tell I have my own learnings and opinions from as well. We can argue who is more fluent or not but when talking about the next gen terminal ballistics over on rokslide the resident stud/god form didn’t have anything of his own to add, he was a top student and studied everything but his view on terminal ballistics was stuck on that late 20th early 21st temp wound permanent stretch nonsense that someone went down that rabbit hole trying to solve for making terminal ballistics more objective. Fail. I started asking why aren’t we looking at the final bullet? Why aren’t we measuring it? And it’s travel, the change along that travel? Anyway, you can imagine some pride or ego gets in the way and wasn’t well received, didn’t think of anything original themselves just regurgitating older work from others. I could care less about that. What I wanna see is terminal ballistic calculators that show us the objective expectation to choose what we want for tasks. I don’t need recognition, it’s not why I talk about it, it’s to get it in the universe so it becomes reality. Wanna chose beat formula for coyotes or hippos, without the 59 pages of subjective bulksh1t every time? Yeah...we can do better at 1/4 way into 21st century. Why aren’t we?
We can land bullets in milk jugs at 2 miles but need to argue subjective bullsh1t for 59 pages every time terminal ballistics comes up? How stupid is that? I digress...
You see boys, different levels to this stuff, I ask questions and my mind is like a dog on a bone trying to work out the answers or how to get them. The temp cavity stuff is still all subjective. Nice try, better than doing nothing.
Guys will say but we do measure bullets and they show you expanded bullets at various impact velocities. Sigh...no sh1t Sherlock. A pic of an expanded bullet with an o.d. and an impact velocity does nothing to objectify everything that happened to make it look like that.
So I’m taking you guys down a rabbit hole most aren’t ready for yet and mostly because they don’t care and too busy, most things work so just use them lol. Don’t try and play like I don’t get this stuff at different levels. As I said way earlier...how far you wanna take this?, I’m fluent.
The .223 guys showing what’s possible at an even more extreme end. Not even legal for me to use in alberta for big game so I may have beat them to the punch lol.
You haven’t really shared what your experience is with the arc or Grendel or .223 but you’re good at deflecting that to me. I have a little and you can go see it anytime....where’s yours?
Give me something that tells me you can hang at these levels.
Wondering if stinkycoyote is self medicating, off his meds, or suffered head trauma. There are people out there to help with mental health issues, and it's alright to ask for help.
lol fellas, I know it stings so you must lash out that someone came along to offer new thoughts for direction on quelling these ridiculous terminal ballistics discussions, well played lol
anyhow, AO I got punted for trying to warn as many about covid, our government involvement and the dangers of the experimental shots they were coercing and mandating through every means possible, in violation of every single section of nuremberg code and how may other human rights bills/charters that apply to humanity or our country...that story will come full circle one day as those MANY who got punted at that time (many came here too btw) will eventually get to start looking at that and what harm that censoring all of us actually enabled to our fellow countrymen...and those members who were all about it, we have long memories, we know where this is headed, we were right the entire time about all of it...took about 10 years to get to the nuremberg trials right? stay tuned on that story...now's not the time...but there will be a time and many heads will hang in shame if they aren't already
now, do you have anything new to add to the furthering of terminal ballistics discussions? specifically can you sell the arc 108 over grendel 123 since that's where this derail ended up? we're all ears, on the edge of our seats lol, if not...carry on with your lashing out due to hurt feelers, possibly by not being able to keep up
this forum is fun, trying to get up to the normal levels of how points are made here and how cordial those points are made lol, we can't talk like this on a Canadian forum, half the members here would be banned in a day up there lol, it's refreshing and actually like a real campfire with regular thick skinned dudes...nice to see that that in an online space
if you find this place offensive just go join AO and you'll be happily coddled in your safe space lol (most media outlets in Canada including forums are on govt. payroll...so they pretty much have to do as their told and like all things related...silence anyone who is against the official narratives of the moment...sounds great eh?)
just to stay on Teal's derail why arc over grendel and my response if hunting is primary then the larger pill always wins....remember, that is the universal recommendations from all hunters on all similar topics in history, 6.5 always gets the majority nod overt the 6mm for all hunting focused discussions...so not only did I answer correctly based on that I was able to expand way past most peoples abilities to try and objectify why that is the case and from plenty of experience to back it up, you're facking welcome, thanks would be the better response
if hunting isn't the primary, choose either, heck either will still hunt just fine...but a c-hair was asked to be split so it was split, I haven't said anything untrue or misleading, identified the balances, trade offs, caveated everything appropriately so all readers can choose good, or slightly better, for whatever their needs are lol, and get the 'but but...' responses and nothing offered back that challenges that
Yup, match guys talking match cartridge, they rave about the range prowess, up to 1200, bulk 400-800, like all 6mm’s fast twist, great range toy. Almost all of that entire video has nothing to do with hunting. Almost all hunting lands before where they were talking. So not a video for the hunters. Nice to see an off the shelf short fat 6 finally. It will just ensure that case gets lots of support. The hunters can 6.5, the other guys can do their things with the 7.62, .22 and 6. The 6 is best 2nd choice for Hunters of the 4 choices on that case.
Yup, match guys talking match cartridge, they rave about the range prowess, up to 1200, bulk 400-800, like all 6mm’s fast twist, great range toy. Almost all of that entire video has nothing to do with hunting. Almost all hunting lands before where they were talking. So not a video for the hunters. Nice to see an off the shelf short fat 6 finally. It will just ensure that case gets lots of support. The hunters can 6.5, the other guys can do their things with the 7.62, .22 and 6. The 6 is best 2nd choice for Hunters of the 4 choices on that case.
. Grendel is like a fat chick wearing tons of make-up and yoga pants. She's trying her best to look good, but at the end of the day, she's still a fat chick in tights.
Grendel is like a fat chick wearing tons of make-up and yoga pants. She's trying her best to look good, but at the end of the day, she's still a fat chick in tights.
108’s from a 6arc can be driven faster at the same barrel length then a 123eld can
Don’t eat pork, beef, or chicken.. feeding 6… all from a 108gr on top of 29.6gr of reloder 15
Any bullet can do weird things.. this year my nephew made a 300 yard shot on a whitetail. Venerable 6br and 108 tickler. Heard the hit, saw the legs kick up.. looked all over. No blood.. light was fading…
Died under a cedar bush 10ft from impact.
Laffin.
Same thing on an elk at just under 500.. impact.. nothing happened.. the. wobbly knees and a death dash. Softball sized exit, soupy lungs.
108’s from a 6arc can be driven faster at the same barrel length then a 123eld can
some think the most consistent performance window for impact velocity for eld-m construction for big game hunting is better suited at grendel speeds, muzzle to 500, the arc has the hot girl looks but sucks in bed, they usually do....that window in the arc is from 200-700 yards and it's still under 120 grains....it's not a bad choice and as you show it works fine, but given the choice and you haven't spent the money yet, and hunting is why you're buying....well, the grendel 123 is all that and a bag of chips
you always trade a couple key points of balance when you choose the 6 over the 6.5
108’s from a 6arc can be driven faster at the same barrel length then a 123eld can
some think the most consistent performance window for impact velocity for eld-m construction for big game hunting is better suited at grendel speeds, muzzle to 500, the arc has the hot girl looks but sucks in bed, they usually do....that window in the arc is from 200-700 yards and it's still under 120 grains....it's not a bad choice and as you show it works fine, but given the choice and you haven't spent the money yet, and hunting is why you're buying....well, the grendel 123 is all that and a bag of chips
you always trade a couple key points of balance when you choose the 6 over the 6.5
. 
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9623/Ik436i.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9187/lxw5tD.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/C1XNgMmR/IMG-9516.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/wv7VZRcK/IMG-9525.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/rs49F6PQ/IMG-9722.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/J0J9pdf2/20231115-212700.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/JKwBYef.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/210038.jpeg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/brptDmz4/IMG-7488.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/JwNHA04.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/924/3j3K8n.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/923/dcIVdQ.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/T3Jzs0ZZ/cz527-3shot-1.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/923/Qy3HTB.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/923/P2ylPH.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/HuOldU.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/m2QFj0.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/923/HZoLKr.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/sg5KvQ.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/QJxZoW.png)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/924/vbx3qq.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/8ADP8h.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/923/0Ahnbh.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/UCbvkF.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/924/HMfGe3.jpg)
![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/923/1dTzhB.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/GhOmT5l.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/uX0Hfng.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/EPOjlM3.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/7T67tIv.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i0.wp.com]](https://i0.wp.com/coldboremiracle.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/6.5-meme.jpg)
