Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Straightwall cartridge choice?

I currently utilize a 45-70 lever action marlin for a special regulations unit in PA and OH. I have noticed numerous new straightwall caliber offerings. The 45-70 has a pretty strong recoil and I am wondering if any of these new cartridges offer similar performance and knock down power. Can anyone offer anything on this?

The 450 Bushmaster is the only one that I would say offers similar performance. The 350 Legend is a smaller round that offers a good bit less recoil but won’t have the knockdown power of the 45/70. That said, it and the 450 are very adequate for any close to moderate range deer hunting.

I have found that the 350L is plenty for deer. Low recoil is the main reason why I have it. But the two deer that I have killed with it went down no muss, no fuss.

I shot a.444 marlin for a few years. I went with 350 Legend a few years ago. I have killed all three deer at. Two bucks and a doe.
This years buck was 230 lbs shot at 170-180 yards. The buck was DRT. The other two at the same ranges went only a few steps before expiring.
I wanted a lighter weight scoped bolt action with my mag flush with the stock. Similar to my rifles I shoot everywhere else. Winchester xpr checked the boxes. My first budget rifle and I am leased with it. What the 350 gives up on power it seems to make up on accuracy.
My other hunting buddies that are shooting them are impressed as well.

I had my doubts when I bought mine but dead deer are all the evidence I needed.

I am a member of a couple of 350 Legend Facebook groups. There are plenty of instances of those large bodied deer from up north and the Midwest being effectively dispatched with lots of reports of dead right there and short track jobs. It seems like a well designed cartridge that can be used very effectively out to 200 yards.

If the 45-70 kicks too much that is super easy to remedy. Stop running Leverevolution or whatever you're running and switch to Trapdoor loads. Remington has a 300 and a 405 grain and they're both pussycats but they kill game just fine. I myself have switched to blackpowder loads in my single shot. I still run Leverevolution in my Guide Gun

If I had to use a straight wall cartridge, I'd buy a 360 Buckhammer.

I love my .444 Marlin. Just don't shackle it with factory JSP (pistol bullet) loads.

Been using the 50 2 1/2” Sharps. Not cause I have to though.

No kill reports yet but if 700 grains at 1400 won’t work on a scrawny deer, I’ll try golf

I use two straight wall cartridges a 38/55 built on a High Wall action and a Ruger #1 405 Winchester.

I have a single shot rifle in 360 BHMR. I just wish I could get the deer to cooperate. They must have gotten "the memo".

Henry?

The problem with that is they have over a foot of drop at 200 yards. The idea is to get as close to bottle necked cartridge goodness as possible.

Same. But sadly, I don't think it will ever get off of the ground, so I'd say 350 Legend.


Okie John

A 200 grain Sierria bullet and H4895 gives me just under 2000 FPS in my 38-55. It's a capable 200 yard rifle.

Remington needs to step up (for a change) and support it more. Even if they made a few in a break action single shot it would be better than nothing.

Rem Arms has nothing to do with Remington ammo, totally separate companies since the split up. You’ll see several other brands chambering the 360 next year.

i use a TC Encore in 23" MGM barrel in 444 Marlin and 500 Linebaugh. the 500L with 450gr LFN GC and HS6 goes 1235fps that i have yet to kill a deer.

the 444 Marlin using 255gr Kieth type, 275gr Ranch Dog, 280gr WFN & LFN GC, 300gr SAECO FN GC and 265gr Hornady FN. at first, the 275gr Ranch Dog, 280gr WFN & LFN GC and 265gr Hornady FN were going 2300+fps and they were damaging the meat. when i took the powder charge down to 1900+/-fps, i could eat up to the hole. the 300gr Saeco and 2400/tuft of Dacron was going 1624fps and i could eat up to the hole.

where i hunt, 60 yards is considered a long shot. 30ish yards is my average. this year i shot a doe that was slightly broadside 40ish yards away. i used a 280gr WFN GC and Reloder 7 going 1937fps and it went behind shoulder about a 1/3 of the way up, wrecked the lungs and broke two ribs and went out (about 1 1/2 " hole) the doe. she ran, after the shot, about 15ish yards and then fell over. i could see the blood coming out when she ran.

the difference between hot load and a medium load is the hot load equals bloodshot meat and the medium load equals eat up to the hole.

Nice, beretzs! To quote Harry Callahan, "He shows a certain sense of style." You can tame recoil by going to a lesser cartridge - sure. Or, you can just add a little mass. Can't wait for the kill report!

Yes. They do make 150 yards a long shot

My .350L has about 5” of drop at 200yds when zeroed at 150yds. Bit over 2” high at 100. Not horrible to work with.

Anyone using the Legend on black bears?


Okie John

That's right, but you'd think there might be some coordination between the two companies for mutual gains.

My suggestion would be to get Paul Matthews little book "40 Years With The 45-70" and learn what this deer hunter did years ago. He also goes into an interesting dive of the Lyman Gould bullet and how it worked on deer for him. 300gr can be loaded pretty mild yet still hits hard even at trapdoor levels.

There's some interesting optics Burris has now with illuminated red dot and an MOA and different reticle subtensions flavors. I'm going to try one myself on my own Marlin

The .45-70 gives you allot of options

The .350 legend will kill deer just fine.

My savage hog hunter has been used by my wife and two youth hunters to take nine deer now. Including two pretty hefty bucks, two smaller bucks and several nice doe.

Shots ranging from 15-120 yards.

All dead.

I will continue to use my .45-70 though. But nothing wrong with the .350

-Jake

I have that book. I really enjoy the correspondence between him and Elmer Keith in the last chapter. It's so cool to read Elmer's answers and opinions

Since REM Arms doesn’t make a lever gun or a single shot I’m not sure what they could do to promote the cartridge.

No such thing.

Kinda.........
I brought one put a couple times this year but didn't connect.
Several of my friends have used it on black bear with no issue.

George

2024 will be the year of the 400 Legend. SHOT show will be loaded with models in the cartridge.
Winchester has 22 model choices in the XPR line alone in 350. I expect they will do similar in 400

Thanks.


Okie John

H&R 357 Magnum rechamber job. It shoots very well.

Kinda like "brush busting" cartridges ....... No such thing.

when you shoot an animal with a real cartridge, you'll see "knock down power", with these pansy cartridges y'all will never see an animal knocked right offa the hooves

you shoot a deer, it runs ... there's tracking, dogs are brought out.. gets dark & y'all go home because night is scary, end of next day you find your bloated deer, take pics with a huge smile then cut the head off "your trophy" the carcass gets left behind, unfit to eat

do it again next year.... stupid

45-70, 44mag, 357, 357 max, 350 Leg, 454 Casull, Whole bunch of older ones. There are a bunch

I’m guessing that you don’t deer hunt with a 223 either. Lol.

I used to hunt with a 7 Mag but it’s too much for my type of short range hunting. But it did knock them right off their hoofs!

Thank you sir!

Nothing RemArms makes AFIK is suitable for the .360. Doubt very much it’d be worth their while to cobble something up.

Not crazy about the Henry levers, but like their SSs pretty well. CVA might come up with a Scout, and Ruger could do a 336, but that will be a slow process if their pace on the other Marlins remains typical.

Is the 375 Winchester a legal cartridge in those states?

Been a while since I perused the regs in those states, academically only, but some seem to have requirements based on caliber, case length etc, others lists of legal rounds. Some IIRC have both, presumably to cover new developments.

Being in Texas, I don't worry about straight-wall cartridge regulations. But reading threads like this one, I wonder why hunters don't ever consider the .357 Maximum? Just too anemic for those giant up-North whitetails & black bears?

Legal in Ohio. I've taken five or so with a model 99

Tough to find brass and guns that shoot it.

I have been experimenting last several years since Iowa went straight wall. Had a .45-70 First as I had an 1886 so chambered. Did the job but trajectory even with 300 required holdover and getting a fast load in a light rifle hurt the shoulder. Shot 1 deer with it and it worked, however the bullet was too heavily constructed in my opinion.

Shot a few with pistol cal carbines, .357 mag, 44 mag and .45 colt. Mostly in 1894 lever guns and a ruger #3 in .44mag. Better accuracy than my slug guns, less recoil. They all killed, however wouldn’t shoot again past 75ish yards with .357 or past about 125 with the others as bullet performance left me unsatisfied when we recovered. Used xtp’s l, nosler’s, and hard cast. With the hard cast being my favorite.

Currently using a rebored Marlin 336 in .375 win. Fast follow ups, good blood trails, and fairly flat shooting with out a lot of recoil compared to the .45-70. Shooting 200 grain speer’s over reloader 7. Getting close to 2375fps in it. I have shot between 7-10 deer with it from 12yards to just over 160. Yet to catch a bullet.

Now have kids hunting deer for youth season here and set up a pair of .350 legends. 5 deer shot, 68 yards to 120 yards. One was hit on run, high shoulder made it about 30 yards. Rest were on standing deer and none went over 5 feet. Shooting factory 180gr win power points.

Had both a ruger American and an AR build in .450 bushmaster. Key word, had. Loud, recoil about like a 20ga slug gun. Bullets were failing to open much beyond 120 yards. The American had feeding issues and would bind on feeding rounds. On the ar if you loaded the same round a few times times we had issues with the bullets coming out of cases and dumping powder in gun. As we do deer drives and may load and unload the gun 5-6 times a day it was just too much of a pain. Nobody in our group of 15 hunters shoots a 450 any more.


Of that group since rules changed we now carry l:
.375 win -1
.45-70-1
.350 legend-4
Slug guns-9

However, 2 guys have just purchased .350 L bolt guns and one is building a .350 ar upper.

YMMV but this is the journey we have been on since we started to use rifles here.

Gosh, you’re an insufferable phuggtard.

I've lung shot moose with a 375magnum. None of them flinched. Just stood there till they died. Same with a large Mountain Caribou in the Yukon.

Is that a "real" enough cartridge for you?

The only moose that I knocked off it's feet was a small moose that caught a 250gr Speer behind the ear from a 35Whelen at close range. I suspect I would have had the same results with a smaller "pansy" cartridge.

I really like my 405 Winchester 1885 Traditional Hunter. But if the purpose of this question was to find a rifle with less recoil than the 45-70, I would not choose this caliber!

Still, it's a lot of fun to shoot.



For the low-recoil straight-wall shots I use my Browning 1885 in .44 Magnum that my gunsmith mounted a Malcolm scope on for me:

44 MAG is a good choice if shots are limited to about 100 yards or so. - Sherwood

This ^^^

I concur with Scott.

Agreed! I have 7 stands that I hunt out of where the range is about 75 yards are less. This is where I favor my .44 Magnum. I found that my Browning shoots better with the "lighter" 180gr Remington bullets instead of the heavier 225 Hornady LEVERevolution ones. But at these close ranges the smaller bullet still does a great job of dropping the deer quickly.

Michigan has a OAL limit. I'm not sure what it is exactly but I do know it limits a person to pistol cartridges or the Bushmaster class of cartridge both of which do nothing for me.
Fortunatly I live where I can use any centerfire caliber so my 38/55 and 405 see some blind time.

Here in Michigan the case length for limited rifle zone (straight wall case) is 1.8"

For the handloader a 444 Marlin can be loaded down for deer easily. Just as a 45-70 can, with the exception of using .430” bullet weights that start around 200 and 225. Barnes’ 200 gr and 225 gr XPB can be loaded down to 1,700 fps - 1,850 or pushed as fast as 2,550 fps and 2,350 fps. You could shoot the Hornady 200 and 240 xtp in the same manner loaded down or loaded up. Truth is because of the multiple style .430” bullets available for the 444 Marlin it can use (jacketed SP, jacketed HP, Barnes Monos, Hard Cast, etc.) from 200 gr HP at 2,650 fps or 335 gr HC at 2,125 fps there’s nothing the 444 Marlin can’t be tailored to for tackling game from 100 lbs - 2,000 lbs. Doesn’t get much respect, but it’s the best and most versatile tube feed lever cartridge there is in my opinion.

444 marlin for sure

If you reload, you can do what I did. I bought a decent Marlin 336 from the 1980s, and had it rebored and chambered for the 38-55. It has the same bore diameter as the .375 Win., so it is easier to find bullets. The brass can be found, and Starline released a batch when I was looking, but you can make brass by opening up 30-30 brass. Some of the older rifles have larger bores, but I'd rather have one like mine. In a strong action like a 336 Marlin, you can get better performance without worrying about pressures, as long as you use the manuals. I had a 45-70 for years and killed deer with it, but I started having neck problems which made it necessary to downsize my caliber. The 38-55 is just a straight walled 30-30, 25-35, or .32 Special. That whole family of cartridges came from the 38-55 in the 1890s. JES rebore did my work for me. Just a note, he does everything by phone, so you leave your number, and he'll return your call.

360 Buckhammer. I know this cartridge just came out this year and has limited availability, but I think this could be one of the best ones to come on the market. If you like levers and single shots that is.

I wanted a rifle chambered for a cartridge that was legal in mid western states and limited zones, that would also be legal for Miss. primitive weapon season. I've got the 45-70, 444 and Whelen, but wanted less recoil. To fit these parameters, I bought a CVA Scout in .350 Legend. I could have been happy with that. When the 360 BH came out, I knew that for me, it would be a better cartridge than the Legend. After waiting for a bit for CVA to produce 360 Scouts, I said to heck with it and had the Legend rechambered.

I now have a Scout chambered for a cartridge in a rifle legal for all those restricted areas, that gives ballistics slightly better than the great 35 Remington. I've ended up buying two cases of Remington factory ammo that cost me $26-28.00 dollars a box. I'm getting +- one inch groups with it. I'll be using it this year for Miss. primitive season. At the rate I'll use that up, I don't see me loading for it anytime soon.

I’ve killed deer with the 357 mag and the 350 Legend. My son and nephews have killed a truck load with the 357 mag. Anywhere from 50-125 yards. Every caliber listed will get it done. I have a lever action 45/70 and a bolt action 450 BM.

If you don’t like the recoil of the 45/70, don’t get the 450 BM. I really like my 350L. But if the 400 legend is what they say, it will be a great caliber.

Rules here in MI are assine. Can't use a bottle neck or a tapered round out of a lever gun cuz it shoots to far but I can go buy the newest ML or a 450/350 and I'm good.

I thought AK was bad on some of their decisions but mi is up there and worse in some cases.

I like my 450's don't get me wrong but damn......no common sense

Don't feel too bad
Every wildlife and game department in every
place I've ever been is that way.
Staffed with people that seldom leave the
climate controlled office, let alone go afield
and get an up close and personal view.

That's part of the modern world.
Hopefully someday we'll get back to merit
based hiring, and only the most experienced
and qualified personnel will get the job

I'm not holding my breath...

The .360 BH intrigues me. Got a bug up my butt to send one of my High Walls I rarely use out to JES for a rebore and chamber for the .360. Gotta call them as they don't list the .360 as an option.

I have a .357 Maximum rifle (Martini Cadet with 26" barrel that launches 200 grain bullets with alacrity - it pretty much fulfills my need for a straight wall hunting cartridge), but I like the idea of the .360 with its larger case capacity. Not only for hunting but for single shot target competition - I see it being able to sling a 225-250 grain cast bullet fast enough to stay super-sonic out to 200 yards. To my mind it would also fill a niche between the .32-40 and .38-55- possibly better wind bucking than the .32-40 for 200 yard cast bullet target work without the added recoil of a .38-55, a real consideration over a match weekend involving hundreds of shots on an arthritic shoulder. That's important in the game I play, and the rifle I have in mind sports a heavy barrel and would weigh in the neighborhood of 10 pounds after the rebore. A not totally objectionable weight for hunting since I'm turning into mainly an ass-sitter hunter anymore. That would make it able to pull double duty, for hunting and targets.

I guess I should wait and see which way the wind blows as I don't see .360 brass available yet and I'm damned if I'm gonna spend $2/round for factory ammo just to salvage the brass, and I don't have the desire to send jacketed bullets screeching down a barrel that I'll be seasoning for lead shooting.

gnoahhh,

If it helps increase your interest, you can make the brass from any of the 30-30 based cartridges.

Geez. Of course, d'oh! (Red faced here right now! Me being a dedicated alterer of brass to make other brass and all. Spent the afternoon swaging .40-65 brass out of .45-70's in my 5-ton arbor press dontcha know!)

Speaking of which, I hear talk of "straight wall states" decrying straight tapered cases. What's up with that? By definition a .32-40 or .40-65 wouldn't cut the mustard. Pointy headed politicos/bureaucrats making regs as somebody else mentioned here, I suppose.

The 357 Maxi was more widely used in straight wall states when those states limited case length to 1.625". Now that most of them allow 1.8" it's not as popular.

I have owned no less than 7 guns chambered in 357 Max and have killed a number of deer and 2 bears.

It gets the job done with a calm and humble demeanor.

Brass is available from Starline and it uses 357 or 358 bullets unlike the 350L.

Dinny,

I wanted to use a single shot. .358 bullets and a rimmed case are the main reasons 360 BH was a better choice for me.

Chapter 1: the 45/70

Similar performance and knock down power probably means similar recoil. I really like my marlin guide gun in 45/70 but it's non ported and I just don't like the recoil my old bear load og a 350g Hornady flat nose at about 2100 fps has. I've started using cast bullets again and lighter loads and it's much more shootable. With those hotter loads the recoil puts the bore almost vertical and it takes a bit to get back on target. Not ideal at all if you miss with the first round.

Chapter2: The 444

Maybe 7 or so years ago I found a marlin 444p outfitter model at a good price. I strongly prefer stainless, inwasnt a fan of the ports, and didn't think I wanted a 444 but the price was really good so I bought it. I figured I'd just put it away and maybe a few years down the road trade it for something else.

Eventually I broke down and bought dies and brass for it. I shoot a lot of 44 mag so I had several different 44 bullets on hand. I worked up loads for some 250g Sierra jacketed flat nose silhouette bullets I had on hand and didn't have another use for and a load for 270g speer gold dot flat noses. I didn't go real hot but took them both to around 2200fps iirc.

I was amazed how much more enjoyable that 444p was to shoot than my 45/70 GG. The ports really reduced muzzle rise and the recoil overall was much less.i also found that that jacketed flat nose Sierra 250 actually mushrooms quite well at those rifle velocities. I used to always carry the 45/70 while we picked huckleberry in grizzly areas. Now I find myself just taking the 444.

I can stay on target much better and get quicker follow-ups even with the 270 Speers. Next I'm going to try a bunch of hard cast lee 310g bullets that I cast and powder coated and then sized checks on. I'm hoping it likes the cast bullets too because I made hundreds and it will get me to practice more.

I'm also sure I can get quite a bit more speed with the 250s if I want to and that should give me a lot flatter shooting load that my 45/70 loads.

Chapter 3: The 350L

I think if you want close to 45/70 but with less recoil a 444 is the best of tge more common options. Maybe a 450 bushmaster is similar too. If your just hunting deer and don't have grizzlies around you should seriously check out a 350l. My 350 is on an AR but I've really liked it and want a bolt gun in it now too. It's a very pleasant to shoot round and seems to hit pretty hard and shoot fairly flat for such little recoil. I had a few bugs to work out loading for it in an AR but now that I've got it figured out its great. Brass and ammo are affordable and available too.

My AR is just a cheap radical I went with first to see if I liked the round. Now I'm gathering parts to build me one just how I want it then I'll sell the radical. Once I figure out which bolt gun I want I'll get one of those too. I'd like something short barreled and threaded so I'm eyeing a howa mini. I've already cast and powder coated some 200g lee flat noses that I hope work well in both an AR and a bolt gun. The AR barrel I'm getting for my built has wider feedramos and should do better with the flat nose.

Chapter 4: My 350 AR load learning curve

The issue I had with loading for an AR was getting a good enough crimp to prevent bullet set back when it slammed them in the chamber. You definitely don't want your gun seating your bullets deaper for you on an already warm strait wall load. Pressures can go way up. A heavy crimp alone wasn't enough to reassure me so I worked up my own loads with a bit slower powder than you usually find data for. Now it's around 100% load density at my seating depth and that helps prevent set back. Another advantage to my own load is I used h4198 which is temp stable and seems much more consistent than h110 or lilgun. That cheap ar with 170g Hornady interlocks over h4198 is accurate and just fun to shoot. Iirc I'm got them up over 2200fps I'm that 16" even with the slower powder. The h4198 is cut short and meters well too.

Chapter 5: .358 in a .355

And just in case some person actually reads this far, the starline 350 brass has thinner walls than the win brass and my ar will chamber .358 bullets in starline brass. Just starting with a bit lighter load, just in case, I was able to shoot .358 158g xtps fine. Not that it's recommended so I should say be sure not to try it.

The end,
Bb

I'm amazed 32-40 made the pointy heads' kosher list here. It breaks the rules they laid out, but is specifically listed as a legal "bottleneck" cartridge 🤷‍♂️ Politicians are a strange lot...

I’d bet a dollar if Jess can get a reamer he will do it. I’ve had him do quite a number of things not on his website.

Speaking of, any 30-30 would make a solid rebore option and cheap 30-30 brass doesn’t anymore plentiful.

Maybe a good winter project…

A Savage 219 would make a good donor here or an H&R.

Very interesting, BB. Thanks for the write-up.

FWIW, the chamber in my .350L AR is so tight that I can't even easily seat a .355" slug into a fired case.

Any gun, AR, bolt, SS, etc chambered in 350L will shoot .358" bullets. A simple throat reaming is all that's needed.

Didn't someone confirm that a 30-30 Win couldn't be rechambered to 360 BH or did I just dream that up?

I call bs on this. I am only new on this forum. I have shot a lot of deer with a 100 grain bullet out of a 243 and seen a lot more shot with the 243 including one the other day by my 10 year old grandson. We have never lost a deer with a 243 in the 25 plus years I have hunted with it. They usually go down in sight.30-30 falls into the same category at my house. Never a deer lost. However, I have seen many lost and several long tracking jobs when shot with 180 grain 30-06 loads. Knock down power does not exist in the real world.

You remember correctly. The .30-30 shoulder sticks out beyond the chamber dimensions of the .360 BH.

That was my suspicion.

LGS just put a couple Salvage Trail Hunters chambered in 400 Legend on the rack. I'll say this for them, the Hogue over molded stock beats the abysmal Salvage tupperware. Wonder how long they'll sit?

Probably not long. Savage plastic stock rifles are everywhere around here during deer season. I know an old man who bought one in 243 ten or twelve years ago and he put a 3-9 Bushnell Banner on top and kills four or five deer with it every season since. It ain’t sexy, but she seems to get the job done.

460 Smith & Wesson. Versatile and powerful. Can shoot 45 colt, 454 Cas and 460 in same gun

Happy to read so many good results from 350 Legend. The reports online are so inconsistent, from deer running for miles and no blood at all, to making it a few yards and being real gushers.

Thinking of trying one for 200 yards and (usually very much less) in. With 170gr TSX and 180gr Powerpoint.

No obligation to. Just looks cool. Figure if 30-30 has been killing critters for so long, it should too.

Put me in the crowd of no blood at all with my 350 legend this year on a mature Illinois 10 pointer with the 150gr Deer Season XP.

Full disclosure, I had to thread the needle through some saplings and a bush and got him a little high and a little back. But, I’ll be damned, he only made it 60 yards before crashing. Im still perplexed how he expired so quick….

Huh, no kidding.

Have seen em go that far with a shot through the vitals with a 308 or 30-06.

Guess they ain't the "big boy rounds" that Swampy was talking about lol. Clearly underpowered for deer.


Wonder if having only an entry and no exit, located farther up on the animal than the blood filling its innards is why it didn't give you any sign on the ground?

We hunt in Iowa with the .350 Legend. Have taken about 7 deer in the last 3 years in our group, using the 150 grain Winchester Deer Season load. Not the toughest bullet available for the .350 but relatively inexpensive and accurate our guns. None has gone further than 40 yards after the shot and none have required a second shot. Ranges from 75 to 120 yards.

Got a 450 Bushmaster Henry single shot this year since Illinois opened up to the straight wall cartridge idea. Shot a buck through the lungs and clipping the vessels off the top of the heart at about 30 yards. Behaved just like every deer I've ever shot in that place with any cartridge, hopped bit, wagged his tail and shook his head a little, wandered about 40 yards and fell over.
Only way I've ever had a deer do a DRT routine is to make a bad shot, high enough to clip or severely traumatize the spine area.

I read about the 450BM recoil being heavy, but all I can say is that in the ss Henry it is mild compared to even a 7mm Mauser at modern speeds. The Winchester 2200fps load also has good ballistics (relatively speaking) out to 200 yards.

The Henry is a nice looking rig too, well made and the walnut in the stock is awesome.

One thing I've noticed with the 350L is if you load a magazine and seat the cartridges with the rims against the rear of the magazine, once you chamber the first round all the cartridges will be nose against the front of the magazine.

Do the other straight walls do this in ARs?

Seems like it could affect feed/function.
Normal AR mags have a ridge that bears on the cartridge shoulder, holding the cartridges back.

I have a straightwall only county near me. When the season opens back up after Christmas I will be toting the 45-70

Found that the 450bm gives similar performance to the 45-70 so my brother,buddy, and I all switched to ARs in 450bm for bear baiting here in Alaska. Quicker follow up shots and fast shots in the brush when going in to find them after shot. Feel it’s a great setup for sure. Lot of others use the 458 socom up here but the 450bm give better ballistics power wise.

+ 1000

i have 3 barrels in the Max. love the round. the new 360 is even better.

Lots of previously-existing cartridges will work and fit the rules, but damn few of them are readily available, either the rifles or the ammo. The vast majority of deer hunters aren’t gun cranks or handloaders. They just want to hunt, wipe their rifle off (maybe) and go back to real life. They definitely don’t want to spend the off season scrounging for hunting ammo. Rifle Loonys can pick and choose, it’s all part of the fun.

Now there are good choices for bolt-actions, leverguns, ARs, and single-shots, so everybody can use what they like.

Yes. As one has the rifle in hand, stick with a typical 405 grain slug in front of a commercial load and one should be comfortable and safe before any of north America's big game. I made the mistake of hopping up some rounds for a Marlin Guide gun. It now kills on both ends but front-end efficacy has likely remained the same. I will be going back to rounds doing about 1,250 fps where it's a puppy.

Decades of readings and my experience have convinced me there are 3 important issues with big game gunning. They are placement, placement, and placement.

I haver a Marlin 45-70 guide gun, haver killed a lot of deer and hogs with it. Mine is ported I have never minded the recoil from it. I think I have more felt recoil from my mod 88 Win in .308. One of my favorite rifles.

We have taken a number of deer with the .350 Legend due to the requirements of Iowa (which have now changed a bit) and it is an effective, accurate and light recoiling round.