Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Comanches Vs. Apaches

Getting off the subject I found it interesting that it talks about the white tail deer on Mescalero. It’s kind of a mystery how there is an island population of texas white tails, which are definitely not Coues deer, in the Sacramento Mountains. And another side note is it does mention Elk which I assume are Merriams elk but doesn’t mention vast herds. And interestingly doesn’t give much talk to them, as it sounds like they preferred deer meat to elk.

This has been another great thread! Thanks Leanwolf for starting it.

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Love these threads.

Thanks Kaywoodie LW, and Birdwatcher !

I believe reading that the famed last (known) Indian raid in Texas (Frio River Canton 1882) was a small group of Lipan Apaches. Not much of a war party, sounds in print like an extended family group was burglarizing the McLauren house when surprised in the act, killed just the two people that we know of.

Actually a must-read on Texas history is The Black Seminoles by Thomas Porter

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Seminoles-History-Freedom-Seeking-People/dp/081304488X

As much a story of Wildcat’s band of Seminoles as it is John Horse’s Black Seminoles, starts in Florida ends in Texas. Under their Quaker Officer, the generally overlooked today but justly famous in his day John Latham Bullis, the Black Seminole Scouts were brought in from Ft Clark and tracked those Lipans clear to the Burro Mts in Mexico south of El Paso where they attacked the camp.

A similar epic feat was when Bullis and his scouts were called out in response to a Lipan raid around Mason TX (1881 ?), an astonishingly late date for that area. What followed was an epic tracking duel 600 miles back to New Mexico, Bullis and his scouts being denied jurisdiction by an Indian agent there despite the fact that they were only half a day behind.

In popular history we tend to box in our Indians as THIS tribe living in THAT place much more so than they apparently did themselves. Lipans were identified as the actors in both these events but a Lipan guy whose kids I taught had close ties with the Mescalero, where many Lipan ended up (AND he married a Puerto Rican girl, so there’s that ).

My own take on both these events is that the Lipans had lived in Texas well within living memory, maybe they were revisiting old haunts.

Then in Texas you get reports of raids and battles involving alliances of quite different tribal groups, like the reported Waco and Comanche group that sacked Fort Parker and abducted Cynthia Ann.

HOLY SANITIZED VERSION OF HISTORY BATMAN!!!

…but a neat video nontheless, with some familiar faces 🙂

January of 1980 I left New York headed “out West”, I would have gone to Oregon but on account of it was January I picked out Las Cruces NM on the map. For the next seven months I lived off day labor, most of the time living out of my car while applying to the Peace Corps. BEAUTIFUL place, friendly people, the Land of Enchantment indeed.

One morning, while drinking too much coffee in a cafe in ‘Cruces, I saw in the morning paper that there was a four-day July 4th ceremony at a place called Mescalero. Since I only had to pay rent one month out of that seven, I had cash on hand and drove on over.

Beautiful setting at 7,000 feet, one of the few Indian ceremonials outsiders could be present, they paid well in cash for people to direct traffic during the day ( the ceremony starts at dusk) AND they have a tradition of feeding visitors for free, and I didn’t get beaten up

I didn’t make it back for five years, after Africa and a couple of years into Grad school. But between ‘85 and 2011 I made it back most years, either alone on a motorcycle or with whatever woman I was with at the time and later with wife and son. Not just for the ceremony but because of good friends near Ruidoso and to camp in the Sacramento Mts. All of that just 10-12 hours from Texas.

So I’m familiar with Mescalero, don’t claim to be an authority. Standing out there directing traffic in the sun all day friendly locals would invariably feed me and we’d get to talking. I’d be recognized by some from previous years.

1987 when it was just me on a motorcycle I got to sit around in the shade passing around a milk jug of home brew tiswin with a couple of elderly Chiricahuas who still remembered exile in Oklahoma.

I remember that year in part because I said my goodbyes and then return a short while later with a case of cold beer as a parting gift. Told them it musta fallen out of Tribal Chairman Wendell Chino’s Beechcraft that had been circling the fairgrounds

The following day on my way home I got sick as a dog from food poisoning after eating breakfast at a McDonalds in Snyder TX, laid up for two days in a roadside motel. I figured it was karma for bringing alcohol onto a Rez.

All of this a long way of saying Google has it that the Mescalero Reservation was establish in 1872, they just lucked out getting such a beautiful place and we’re somehow able to hang onto it.

To the best of my understanding there’s a large Chiricahua contingent at Mescalero. IIRC those Chiricahuas in Oklahoma were given a choice (1913?) of moving to Mescalero or remaining in Oklahoma. The band split. I forget the year but it was within childhood memory of elderly folk in 1987.

Naiche, son of Cochise and longtime associate of Geronimo, later an accomplished artist and Elder in the Methodist Church, is buried on Mescalero. It’s not supposed to be hard to find but, without an invite I haven’t presumed to look.

More on Comanche archery….

May 26th 1839 41yo Ranging Company Captain John Bird rides out with 35 men in pursuit of 27 Comanches. The pursuit lasts eleven miles, the Comanches, better mounted, stay just a few hundred yards ahead, always in sight. Periodically individual Comanches in the group hurry off ahead. Clearly something was up.

Sure enough, when Bird gives up the chase and attempt to withdraw, they themselves become the pursued by increasing numbers of Indians. Finding cover in a ravine the find themselves confronted by around 250 Indians; mostly Comanche but possibly including rifle-armed Caddo and/or Kickapoo (two of the rangers were killed by rifle fire).

In subsequently assaulting 36 entrenched riflemen the Comanches reportedly suffered the worst of it. At one point we are told Captain Bird climbed out of the ravine “to encourage his men” (I suspect “encouraging his men” consisted of shouting mean things and possibly making rude gestures at the Indians).

Someone among the Indians, most likely a Comanche, took a potshot at the distant Bird who was standing in the open. That arrow struck Captain Bird in the heart, killing him instantly.

The rangers, who saw the shot, said that the arrow was fired from a distance of 200 yards, at the time said to be the best-known shot in the annals of Indian warfare, and one that would seem incredible to one who was not familiar with their skill in shooting by elevation.

As far as I know that is the longest reported hit with a bow in North America.

George Catlin painting of Comanche war party.

Great thread, very interesting. Cheers to all who contributed.
BA

All considered they were very efficient with bow and arrows that they made themselves. I suppose modern technique differs because of technology but from all accounts they were very lethal with the equipment they made.

I just finished the main body of The Captured. What a great book! I think I'll read it again, as well as Indeh.

After taking all that in, I have a new understanding of how life really was on the frontier of the Hill Country. In retrospect, I can also understand these young guys' transformation and continued desire to identify with the Apache and the Comanche. When you consider the roots of western culture and its longstanding value placed on having sons, it becomes more clear: sons were free labor. Evidently the German settlers, being the thrifty sort, took full advantage of having sons and worked them like rented mules. That's just how it was.

Looking back on my own upbringing and childhood, something became crystal clear to me. Up until I was six years old, instability and upheaval were my almost constant companions. I don't want to go into the details of it but my mother's life was tumultuous and largely disastrous, and my own situation would change at the drop of a hat. My world would be a certain place with a certain set of people (grandparents, largely) one day, and then without rhyme or reason that I knew of it would all change and I would be in a completely different universe the next. As odd as it sounds, it seemed like a normal thing to me because I didn't know any better. I was adaptable and would feel at home again only a few days after some major change, life would change, and I'd be a happy kid again after a few days to adjust to my new surroundings.

These young people would find themselves in a strange new universe, sometimes after seeing one or both of their parents killed. I think that malleability of youth does wear off with age, but it seems that there was enough remaining for the captives to adapt to a new existence. That existence excluded the never ending hard labor of frontier farm life after some acclimation with the tribe, and that had to be appealing...and then there was the following life of being a hunter and a warrior after acceptance into the tribe. Not that there was not harshness, but captives were in large part treated the same as youth born into the band.

So, I can now understand how and why the captives became enamored of the Indian way of life. The rapidity of their transformations as described in the book is astounding, but I get it. I can even imagine living through it myself, and I think anyone who loves the outdoors and is endowed with a bit of wanderlust would probably understand it like I do.

And...wow. What an eye opener!

Think about how long it takes one of us to get proficient with a commercial self bow and laser straight arrows. Compare that to a hand carved bow of unknown draw weight and stick arrows. Those guys had to practice hours every day to get to be even a decent shot, let alone highly proficient.

Yep. Great Read! I highly recommend it too.

Seems like I also recall reading somewhere that the Comanche tribe of that era had fertility problems, as in having enough male children to train to protect the tribe and their families.
Young male captives were probably highly valued and treated well as they were quick replacements and easy to train. At least that’s my theory.
I’m guessing the young female captives were treated much much worse.

Bringing this thread back to life...

Someone recommended THIS book:





Well, I got a copy and started reading it. It is not light reading, far from it actually. I've been working on it for at least two weeks now and I am two thirds of the way though it, but I'll just say I am SO glad I picked it up. This book will give a guy who knows stuff about southwestern, American, Mexican, or Texas history a whole new perspective on the HOWs and the WHYs everything worked out as it did.

I came into it imagining the Comanche (and all the other tribes, for that matter) as stone age men who lived day-to-day, hand-to-mouth looking for something to kill and eat. It weren't that way by a very long stretch. These people had as much to do with shaping the history of the Southwest as the Spaniards, the French, the Americans and anyone else who showed their faces.

I once read about the Spaniards in the New World, and came away with the impression that they were not much more than plunderers, while the English were agriculture oriented. That view has not been upset at all by this book, but what I do see with more clarity is that the Spanish truly were plunderers and were much like the proverbial monkey with its hand in the jar grasping a handful of bananas. One of the shocking details revealed in The Comanche Empire is the fact that even as late as 1800, the Spaniards had absolutely NO idea what lay north of New Mexico, yet they claimed it. Believe it or not, they became alarmed when they became aware of Americans using the lower Missouri River for commerce. They thought this was a threat to their hold on New Mexico because it would provide such easy access to the region. That is an astounding idea to anyone who knows anything about North American geography. I was flabbergasted to learn this.

That's just one example of the multitude of things to be learned from this book. The way the Comanche nation organized and managed their society, how they adapted to and capitalized on equestrian life (a VERY pivotal thing in their history), how they managed relations with other nations and tribes, and how they dominated commerce on the southern plains---all of it is nothing less than remarkably fascinating. Interestingly enough, their very success sowed the seeds of their decline.

I can't recommend reading this book strongly enough. As I said, I'm only 2/3 of the way through. It's heavy duty reading for the most part, but very well worth the effort! I think this may be one of those books you read and when you finish, it saddens you a bit.

BTW, kaywoodie: earlier in this thread I stated that I believed there was no Apache group known as the Mescalero before they all ended up in Oklahoma for a while. I think I confused some facts somewhere along the way because they are mentioned and referred to as "Mescalero" long before the surrender. I cannot explain how I got the wrong impression any other way than to admit my memory isn't as great as it used to be.

Cage Match?

Gonna bet on the Comanche every time.

I just bought this book.

I'll give it a read.

….and yet Pawnees down from Nebraska would raid into Comancheria on foot and return with Comanche scalps and horses. Tonkawas did the same but didn’t have to pack a lunch

The Tonkawas, never very many, always lived within reach of Comanche war parties yet continued to terrify Comanches for forty years. Placido, a chief, even had two Comanche wives, whom he prob’ly didn’t meet online or at a social meet and greet.

…and then you get Comanches camping and raiding with Apaches and being chased around the Border by Seminoles….

Friggin’ Indians didn’t read the playbook, acted like a bunch of individuals……

When people intermarry with someone from somewhere else, as happens a lot, which tribe did they belong to?

IIRC a lot of overlap between Apache groups, again IIRC Victorio being a prime example, relations among the Chiricahuas and Mescalero. After some years of exile in Oklahoma the Oklahoma Chiricahuas were given the option of moving to the Mescalero reservation in New Mexico. Some stayed in Oklahoma, some moved, which may be they source of your impression re: the Mescalero.

Comanche Empire is indeed a great book; Comanches from a Comanche perspective and not a bunch of two dimensional simpletons hopelessly reliant of buffalo when they disappear at all. Who knew?

Likewise Eve Ball’s Indeh: An Apache Odyssey is a great book, Apaches from an Apache perspective. Heck, her books are a valuable resource for Apaches today. When Mrs Ball interviewed them, the original Apaches and their children were still around. A remarkable woman that Mrs Ball. I believe she wrote In the Days of Victorio too.

Case in point Masai, the outlaw Chiricahua Apache that escaped from the prisoner train in St Louis and made his way undetected on foot all the way back home. Mrs Ball interviewed people who knew that guy as a father and/or grandfather. From them we get the info that when he saw the Capitan Notch (a noted landmark) on the horizon he knew he had made it home.

I don't believe for a moment that individuals from any one tribe were superior physical specimens to other examples of other tribes. It was not individual attributes that made the Comanche the dominant force they were. There were several factors:

1. the strength of their social bonds and unity as a people

2. their acquisition of horses and development of an equestrian culture

3. their serendipitous arrival in and occupation of a very strategic geographic location, or IOW being in the right place at the right time

4. a system of leadership that produced sound decisions on trade, relations with other nations, and other important issues

The Comanche nation could not possibly all congregate in one area because of the number of horses they possessed, so they had to disperse in groups known as rancherias. The rancherias had to remain mobile because the horse herds would overgraze if not moved frequently. This caused dispersal over a wide area and that put the Comanche in contact with other tribes on all sides, sometimes resulting in alliances, and sometimes resulting in conflict. Alliances were largely based on commercial interests---trade. As it worked out, the Comanche were in contact with the New Mexico settlements on the western flank and other tribes on the east who were in contact with settlements in the Mississippi River valley. The Comanche found themselves in the middle, living in prime horse country with a huge demand for horses to the east and a huge demand for manufactured goods to the west. New Mexico was New Spain's (and later Mexico's) red-headed step child, essentially and the policies of Mexico were to build, preserve, protect, and enrich the environs surrounding Mexico City itself leaving the northern New Mexico settlements to fend for themselves. The New Mexicans found themselves reliant on the Comanche to the extent that their allegiance to Mexico was questionable at best, and that would eventually lead to New Mexico's ambivalence to American conquest during the Mexican War.

As momentous as the acquisition of the southwest at the end of the Mexican War was, it can be seen that the simple fact that the Comanche (a people who it is thought originated as a Shoshone band who migrated into Ute territory and coexisted with them for a time) acquired horses, mastered horsemanship, and occupied the territory they did was key in determining the ultimate outcome.

This is why I love history, and stories like this played out all over the world, continually from the beginning of mankind.

I think I have more reading to do.