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Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
[quote=add]

Tonkawas did the same but didn’t have to pack a lunch



Good one!


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Originally Posted by RiverRider
I don't believe for a moment that individuals from any one tribe were superior physical specimens to other examples of other tribes. It was not individual attributes that made the Comanche the dominant force they were. There were several factors:

1. the strength of their social bonds and unity as a people

2. their acquisition of horses and development of an equestrian culture

3. their serendipitous arrival in and occupation of a very strategic geographic location, or IOW being in the right place at the right time

4. a system of leadership that produced sound decisions on trade, relations with other nations, and other important issues

The Comanche nation could not possibly all congregate in one area because of the number of horses they possessed, so they had to disperse in groups known as rancherias. The rancherias had to remain mobile because the horse herds would overgraze if not moved frequently. This caused dispersal over a wide area and that put the Comanche in contact with other tribes on all sides, sometimes resulting in alliances, and sometimes resulting in conflict. Alliances were largely based on commercial interests---trade. As it worked out, the Comanche were in contact with the New Mexico settlements on the western flank and other tribes on the east who were in contact with settlements in the Mississippi River valley. The Comanche found themselves in the middle, living in prime horse country with a huge demand for horses to the east and a huge demand for manufactured goods to the west. New Mexico was New Spain's (and later Mexico's) red-headed step child, essentially and the policies of Mexico were to build, preserve, protect, and enrich the environs surrounding Mexico City itself leaving the northern New Mexico settlements to fend for themselves. The New Mexicans found themselves reliant on the Comanche to the extent that their allegiance to Mexico was questionable at best, and that would eventually lead to New Mexico's ambivalence to American conquest during the Mexican War.

As momentous as the acquisition of the southwest at the end of the Mexican War was, it can be seen that the simple fact that the Comanche (a people who it is thought originated as a Shoshone band who migrated into Ute territory and coexisted with them for a time) acquired horses, mastered horsemanship, and occupied the territory they did was key in determining the ultimate outcome.

This is why I love history, and stories like this played out all over the world, continually from the beginning of mankind.

I think I have more reading to do.

If you liked that one, you will probably like "Utah's Blackhawk War" by John Alton Peterson. Also look into the difference between Paiutes and Utes. Geography is destiny.

Sycamore


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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Based on the very little I know about place names in the Great Basin area, I would assume the Paiutes were somehow more focused on water. I'd guess they managed to control water sources, or maybe just made use of it more as agrarians. I'll look for the short answer on that one.

Whether or not I ever read about the history of the Great Basin region..can't say. More interested in the more powerful groups and will likely remain focused on the Comanche, Apache, and Navajo for now. The Caddo confederacy interests me as well. I would like to learn more about the northern plains tribes also but who knows what turn I might make. There are quite a few directions to go.


Don't be the darkness.

America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.


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I unexpectedly finished the book today. The last 140 pages is notes, bibliography, index, etc. That's a lot of footnotes and references! I may scan through the footnotes at some time in the future but I've already got something else in hand to read.

It was definitely a very good read and worth the time. I would read more books like it for sure, but I do have criticisms.

The last ten pages or so are kind of a wrap-up, inserting the totality of the book into the bigger picture of North American history. The author attempts to make the case that the USA was not all that powerful and seems to make excuses for Mexico's historical weaknesses, which were no doubt inherited through its Spanish origins, and he contradicts himself in several ways when summarizing the history of the American acquisition of the southwest from Mexico (for which Mexico was paid in cash under the terms of the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, BTW---he even points that out himself). Further, he injects race into the narrative in reference to the events and circumstances that shaped the development of Texas. I don't doubt that cultural differences played a part in politics and shaping the state, but his comments seem to be critical only of the European and American settlers. Par for the course and not totally unexpected. Most, if not all commentary of that type is confined to those last ten pages or so, so I wouldn't steer anyone away from reading this book for that offense. The vast bulk is descriptive of events---who, where, what, when and some presumably correct WHYs. Overall I'd rate the book about a 9.6 out of 10 and thoroughly illuminating.

Kaywoodie's and Birdwatcher's reading recommendations are spot on, and I thank you gents for them. I wish I had read all this stuff years ago, but better late than never. Now that I have time on my hands I'll be looking for more.


Don't be the darkness.

America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.


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