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Originally Posted by goalie
Originally Posted by 257Bob
In my inquiry re MIL v MOA, there was much debate but it appeared to come down to personal preference to most and it appeared that MIL had a stronger following but nobody would come out and say MOA was not ok. It was more a matter of what others were using in group events, everyone wanting to use the same standard. I was on the fence but an instructor at a shooting school that I highly regard said they use MOA at the school now but had used MIL in the past, that was good enough for me to tilt slightly in the direction of MOA.

As others have stated, dialing with dope cards, the come-up is just as easy with either although I've noticed that the MOAs are less finite, ie 3.1, 4.5, 7.5 vs 0.9, 1.3 or 2.2 for MIL if that makes any difference for people who need to wear glasses to read but don't have them handy for hunting/shooting.

Using MOA instead of Mils is like doing science stuff with Imperial measurements instead of metric. Base ten is more easier every time.

There are countries that use the metric system and there is one country with a nice collection of Moon Rocks.

Just Sayin.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs
Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs
to be clear, milliradian. 0.09 milliradian group = 0.324 inch

Let me indulge my pedantic urge: You're mixing units there. Angles don't equal linear measurements.

Ok. So dialing elevation 0.5 mil is an angular unit? I suppose it is, but results in a linear displacement.

But the linear displacement varies with distance for a fixed angular displacement.

True that is.


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the girls like it when you express your unit in mils, you heard me right babe...1.7

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Originally Posted by horse1
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by jackmountain
And I’m with Jordan, an MOA reticle is doable but mils are so much simpler especially with FFP
Why anyone ever produced a scope with Mil reticle and MOA adjustments is beyond me, Absolutely stupid

When you don't understand how things happened much of history will befuddle you.

Leupold was the first scope manufacturer to offer a Mil reticle.

At that time all adjustments in the high end Leupolds were MOA.

Nobody offered a Mil Reticle with Mil adjustments at that time so just having a Mil reticle was ground breaking.

Kahles made a Mil-Dot reticle w/MIL adjustments in 1969, the ZF69. Does Leupold's Mil-Dot option pre-date the Kahles?

Maybe you missed this last time around. When did Leupold add a Mil-Dot reticle and does it pre-date the 1969 Kahles?


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Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs
How about expressing bullet group size in mil in place of inch.

Shot a 0.09 mil group.

Oh hell, what’s next.

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if hunting matters to you then set up, practice with, and use what your brain is wired for because outdoors is where Murphy lives and where we go on auto-pilot and revert to instincts to fold tags...

anything works on steel and playtime at the range, too much of that practice though, especially if it's in non-instinctual units etc. will be more likely to catch you with unfolded tags than anything else, I'd rather take my 0-600, hold inches for wind, hunting set ups to play prs and suffer at the longer end where you don't kill things anyway than drag a prs set up hunting where it's just a bunch of fat and noise destined to have you meeting murph out there on animals in the ranges animals are killed, pick your priorities, lots of time you can crossover and get it mostly done most of the time...the really smart ones who value hunting over all else...won't do that however wink

a little of the right practice with the right set up goes a lot further than a ton of practice with the wrong stuff, what are you wired for, and what is your priority? trophies made of fur and antler? or brass and glass? hmmmm

can't wait for this prs fad to fully be exposed and we cycle into a more rational fad lol

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Here’s my formula for MOA, 10/3/1.047 =3.18 MOA.
10 inches of drop/300yards/1.047=

What is the similar equation for mils?

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So, if a guy was going to test his MOA scope on a tall target at 50 yards anticipating 48ish MOA of come-ups shooting every 12 MOA, how far apart would his marks be on the tall target? The scope is supposed to be true MOA. Can I just mark every 6 inches above point of aim? What do you guys do?


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Originally Posted by 1eyedmule
So, if a guy was going to test his MOA scope on a tall target at 50 yards anticipating 48ish MOA of come-ups shooting every 12 MOA, how far apart would his marks be on the tall target? The scope is supposed to be true MOA. Can I just mark every 6 inches above point of aim? What do you guys do?

6.282" on a 7" calipers would get you there.


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Originally Posted by 1eyedmule
So, if a guy was going to test his MOA scope on a tall target at 50 yards anticipating 48ish MOA of come-ups shooting every 12 MOA, how far apart would his marks be on the tall target? The scope is supposed to be true MOA. Can I just mark every 6 inches above point of aim? What do you guys do?


At 100 yards an moa is close to 1.047", so halve that for 50 yards.

Last edited by mathman; 02/01/24.
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Got it. Thank you.


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Originally Posted by horse1
Originally Posted by horse1
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by jackmountain
And I’m with Jordan, an MOA reticle is doable but mils are so much simpler especially with FFP
Why anyone ever produced a scope with Mil reticle and MOA adjustments is beyond me, Absolutely stupid

When you don't understand how things happened much of history will befuddle you.

Leupold was the first scope manufacturer to offer a Mil reticle.

At that time all adjustments in the high end Leupolds were MOA.

Nobody offered a Mil Reticle with Mil adjustments at that time so just having a Mil reticle was ground breaking.

Kahles made a Mil-Dot reticle w/MIL adjustments in 1969, the ZF69. Does Leupold's Mil-Dot option pre-date the Kahles?

Maybe you missed this last time around. When did Leupold add a Mil-Dot reticle and does it pre-date the 1969 Kahles?

You should post a link. Euro optic typically have metric adjustments which approximate a Mil radian but I can find no reference of the scope you referencing.


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They came aboard the Steyr SSG69


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Originally Posted by horse1
They came aboard the Steyr SSG69

Again post some kind of link or cert.

The Kanucks used that optic on early sniper rifles but never did it have a Mil Dot reticle in those applications.

Thanks.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs
to be clear, milliradian. 0.09 milliradian group = 0.324 inch

Let me indulge my pedantic urge: You're mixing units there. Angles don't equal linear measurements.
To be a further pedant, it's not the mixing of units that's the issue, but the mixing of quantities. Linear displacement versus angular displacement. grin

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Originally Posted by Kenneth
Here’s my formula for MOA, 10/3/1.047 =3.18 MOA.
10 inches of drop/300yards/1.047=

What is the similar equation for mils?

Not sure you need a formula. You just use a dope card. Its not that hard. No reason to convert linear measurements to angular measurements and then back again.


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Originally Posted by Kenneth
Here’s my formula for MOA, 10/3/1.047 =3.18 MOA.
10 inches of drop/300yards/1.047=

What is the similar equation for mils?


A little help here guys?

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Originally Posted by Kenneth
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Here’s my formula for MOA, 10/3/1.047 =3.18 MOA.
10 inches of drop/300yards/1.047=

What is the similar equation for mils?


A little help here guys?


It works the same way if you insist on converting between linear and angular measurements.

"1 moa subtends 1.047" at 100 yards" corresponds to "0.1 mil subtends 1 cm at 100 meters".

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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Here’s my formula for MOA, 10/3/1.047 =3.18 MOA.
10 inches of drop/300yards/1.047=

What is the similar equation for mils?


A little help here guys?


It works the same way if you insist on converting between linear and angular measurements.

"1 moa subtends 1.047" at 100 yards" corresponds to "0.1 mil subtends 1 cm at 100 meters".
I agree that for dialing/holding DOPE, there is no reason at all to think in linear quantities. For measuring group size or target size, you can also use the fact that 1 mrad is equal to 3.6" of displacement at 100 yards. So you could do the equivalent calculation as 10"/3/3.6"=0.926 mrad.

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