IMO what matters more is how it fits your hand and points. Lots of small ones out there, mostly reliable, and pretty cheap.
I suggest you spend some time watching Honest Outlaw reviews and then go someplace with a good selection and try them for size.
TFB and Mrgunsngear are other good reviewers, honest and not obviously on the take.
I picked an optics ready Shield Plus. Fits my hand, comes with night sights that can be seen through a red dot, 10 & 13 round mags. 15 rounders are available. Under 20oz. About $450.
I also have an FN 503, but it only has 6 & 8 rounders. It does point very well for me though.
My choice as well. I don’t know if it’s the smallest but it’s pretty small, small enough for me to carry concealed almost anywhere.
What I really like about it is the fact that, for me anyway, it shoots like a big gu. That’s the only way I can describe it. I have pretty big hands that have taken a beating over the years. Many of the small autos are difficult for me to handle and shoot with the degree of dexterity and accuracy I’d like. I’m just as comfortable shooting my little Sig as I am my Beretta 92 or Glock 34.
When I finished with the three rifles I took to the gun club yesterday I pulled over to one of the pistol bays and ran a few racks of plates with my 365 to shoot up the carry ammo that was in it and reassure myself I could shoot it if need be. It was very reassuring.
I had a CW9 for a few years, it's a little bigger than the CM9, but it was always reliable.
I like the khars 👍CW380 is my edc CW9 will fit in a pocket if need be
Those Kahr's are remarkably reliable, for being so inexpensive. My girlfriend has one, and it always goes bang. She shoots it very well too. She also has a Bersa, and I told her to get rid of that SOB!!! I've kept my eye on the Khar though, but it never has a hiccup. Great for CCW.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
I had a CW9 for a few years, it's a little bigger than the CM9, but it was always reliable.
We have a couple of the CM 9’s around here…..pretty darn pleased with them!
And they seem to “point shoot” real well, at least for me. I made a “snap shot” at a house cat at about 15 or so steps, running left to right at somewhere near mach 1. When the dirt exploded at the cat, it appeared to be on the other side of it…..I actually thought that I’d hit it! It was so close…..I was disappointed to find out that I’d missed! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 01/12/24.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
I tried a p238 for a spell with a laser bad ass 👍👍
I love my P238. Carried it today, in fact (due to having a doctor's appointment), in my Alabama pocket holster. Shoots great for such a tiny gun. Much better than the Ruger LCP, and disappears in a front pants pocket.
My wife went through a few 9’s before she tried a 938…..that’s her go to carry handgun! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Everybody thinks the P365 is all that and a bag of chips. I was underwhelmed by it and sold mine after a year of trying to love it. The Kahr CM9 is thinner, lighter, and shorter in both directions. And I could still shoot it as well or better than the P365xl. Both have been perfectly reliable for me. The only advantages to the little Sig is capacity and the ability to mount a dot sight.
Kinda hard to beat that CM9 for size and reliability. It's also smaller and lighter than the G43 and the Sig 938.
I was carrying a Glock 48 last couple years until Makay started this post.....I shoot it well but realized that the ONLY reason I chose it was because it was 1/8" narrower than a 19..... you could make the "shield arms 15 rd mag" argument but the fact is that they will NEVER be as reliable as a factory Glock mag and also can't accept anything else like a 17, 24, or 33 rd mag.
I went back to a 19 3 months ago and have put about 1200 rounds through it and will never go back. My opinion on the pocket guns is that you just haven't found the right holster for your larger gun.... I just don't see the benefit of a pocket pistol anymore.
I had a CW9 for a few years, it's a little bigger than the CM9, but it was always reliable.
Had one of each and carried them for a while when they first came out. Both were reliable and accurate.
Now the smallest 9mm I carry is either my Sig P365 or my Springfield Hellcat. I don’t mind giving up a little size for almost double the carry capacity. I shoot either of the above much better than I did either of the Kahr 9mm models mentioned above. Not to mention being able to carry a spare 15 round mags as backup ammo, should the need arise.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
I tried a p238 for a spell with a laser bad ass 👍👍
I love my P238. Carried it today, in fact (due to having a doctor's appointment), in my Alabama pocket holster. Shoots great for such a tiny gun. Much better than the Ruger LCP, and disappears in a front pants pocket.
I bought one when they first came out. The one I had was not reliable. Given a choice, I’d choose my Ruger LCP 380 over one of those.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
I’m very pleased with my Kahr PM 9 with Crimson trace laser it was my constant companion for over 10 years until things start getting weird and I decided I need to carry higher capacity firearms
Finally spending the money on Sparks holsters made that transition pretty easy
Everybody thinks the P365 is all that and a bag of chips. I was underwhelmed by it and sold mine after a year of trying to love it. The Kahr CM9 is thinner, lighter, and shorter in both directions. And I could still shoot it as well or better than the P365xl. Both have been perfectly reliable for me. The only advantages to the little Sig is capacity and the ability to mount a dot sight.
Kinda hard to beat that CM9 for size and reliability. It's also smaller and lighter than the G43 and the Sig 938.
The p365 is a great little pistol, but I thought this thread was about the "smallest reliable 9mm"??? Sometimes I don't get these threads, as that Khar is smaller than the 365, it is also "reliable". WTF am I missing? Is this all about interpretation? Do we need to be more democrat thinking? I'm thinking literal, not liberal.. I'd have to agree with you FreeMe.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
P365 I believe is the smallest 10 shot and Ruger EC9S may be one of the smallest single stacks. Or both use to be. I have one of each, both reliable and accurate. Shield+ is a nice small higher capacity carry gun. Though I had to put talon tape on the grip because it is pretty ruff and I was getting a rash. Lol
I went back to a 19 3 months ago and have put about 1200 rounds through it and will never go back. My opinion on the pocket guns is that you just haven't found the right holster for your larger gun.... I just don't see the benefit of a pocket pistol anymore.
Generally, I agree, but there are rare occasions when front pants pocket carry of a small .380 is preferable.
Everybody thinks the P365 is all that and a bag of chips. I was underwhelmed by it and sold mine after a year of trying to love it. The Kahr CM9 is thinner, lighter, and shorter in both directions. And I could still shoot it as well or better than the P365xl. Both have been perfectly reliable for me. The only advantages to the little Sig is capacity and the ability to mount a dot sight.
Kinda hard to beat that CM9 for size and reliability. It's also smaller and lighter than the G43 and the Sig 938.
Capacity and the ability to mount an optic and weapon light are huge advantages over the CM9 in my opinion. However, you are correct of course that once you start adding optics and lights you no longer have a micro pocket gun.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Everybody thinks the P365 is all that and a bag of chips. I was underwhelmed by it and sold mine after a year of trying to love it. The Kahr CM9 is thinner, lighter, and shorter in both directions. And I could still shoot it as well or better than the P365xl. Both have been perfectly reliable for me. The only advantages to the little Sig is capacity and the ability to mount a dot sight.
Kinda hard to beat that CM9 for size and reliability. It's also smaller and lighter than the G43 and the Sig 938.
Capacity and the ability to mount an optic and weapon light are huge advantages over the CM9 in my opinion. However, you are correct of course that once you start adding optics and lights you no longer have a micro pocket gun.
I carry a glock 43, it just works, no drama. I have shot a Hellcat and it was not reliable with 11gr ammo. So it could have been the ammo.
Are there any models that are reliable with that 11 grain load?
"The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation" "Dangerous Game Hunting........because golf, football and baseball only require one ball"
I am leaning toward the Kahr CM9 or a used PM9. I've owned a 43 which was reliable but not exceptional in any way. I might be interested in a Sig 365 but I could basically buy two CM 9's for the same price. I haven't seen the Hellcat.
The single action sigs are great guns I am sure, but I don't favor single action for pocket carry. With a good holster fine but I don't feel as comfortable just dropping it in a coat pocket like I do with the Kahr. A light trigger Glock is about the same for needing a dedicated holster IMHO.
P365 I believe is the smallest 10 shot and Ruger EC9S may be one of the smallest single stacks. Or both use to be. I have one of each, both reliable and accurate. Shield+ is a nice small higher capacity carry gun. Though I had to put talon tape on the grip because it is pretty ruff and I was getting a rash. Lol
The EC9s is also bigger and heavier than the CM9. It's a half inch longer and a full inch taller, yet carries only one more round (which the CM9 can also do with the extended factory mag that is less than an inch longer).
I agree that the Shield Plus is a great higher capacity pistol, but nowhere near smallest.
I am leaning toward the Kahr CM9 or a used PM9. I've owned a 43 which was reliable but not exceptional in any way. I might be interested in a Sig 365 but I could basically buy two CM 9's for the same price. I haven't seen the Hellcat.
The single action sigs are great guns I am sure, but I don't favor single action for pocket carry. With a good holster fine but I don't feel as comfortable just dropping it in a coat pocket like I do with the Kahr. A light trigger Glock is about the same for needing a dedicated holster IMHO.
The Hellcat micro compact is a half inch longer than the CM9. OTOH, some people just can't get used to the Kahr trigger - which IMO, is excellent. But I've been living with Kahrs since they first appeared, so there's that.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
For starters, I am assuming that 1 and 2 shot derringers are not on your list of candidates, nor rimfire guns. With that in mind, the winner is:
Sig P365.
I'm not sure if it is actually the smallest, but if you go to handgunhero.com you can find out. They are perfectly reliable. I owned and carried one for the same factors you asked about--size and reliability. But, I also liked the 365 for factors that you didn't ask about--ammo capacity and night sights. I looked hard at the G43 and G43x, but they are single stack guns and come with the Glock plastic sights. However, I ultimately sold my 365 to my sister (who still carries it) and went with the 365XL, because it has a slide milled for a red dot. No regrets. You'll find that almost everyone loves the P365. If they don't, it's due to personal preference, not function.
Kahr PM9 and CM9
The PM is the CM with just "better" parts. Otherwise they are the same same. I owned and carried a PM9 for several years. At the time, it really was the smallest 9mm available. Mine had night sights and with the extended magazine, carried 7+1 rds (the standard flush fit mag is 6 rds). It was fine. That trigger isn't for everyone. It's a lonnggg pull--like a double action revolver. It didn't bother me, but some folks absolutely hate it. I sold it and swapped into the Sig P365 for the higher ammo capacity. Plus, the P365 grip was a big improvement for me.
Sig P238
This is the .380 version of the P938. My buddy carries a P938 regularly and really likes it. I've shot the 938 and don't have any serious gripes about it, but I don't want an external safety on my carry gun. I sold my P238 mostly because of the safety. I went to the Kahr PM9, because I could get a 9mm gun in the roughly the same size as my .380 without the safety and it was 9mm. At the time, .380's were not nearly as well-accepted as a "real" self-defense guns, and more importantly, the ammo was about 50% more expensive than 9mm. It was a win/win for me--better caliber and cheaper to shoot.
I have also owned some others. Some I still have, some have been sold. But, the above guns are the ones that best fit your criteria and are guns that I have experience with.
P365 I believe is the smallest 10 shot and Ruger EC9S may be one of the smallest single stacks. Or both use to be. I have one of each, both reliable and accurate. Shield+ is a nice small higher capacity carry gun. Though I had to put talon tape on the grip because it is pretty ruff and I was getting a rash. Lol
The EC9s is also bigger and heavier than the CM9. It's a half inch longer and a full inch taller, yet carries only one more round (which the CM9 can also do with the extended factory mag that is less than an inch longer).
I agree that the Shield Plus is a great higher capacity pistol, but nowhere near smallest.
You are correct about the Kahr being all around smaller than the Ruger. It's almost LCP small. I never paid much attention to Kahr's pistols. I might have to check one out.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
For starters, I am assuming that 1 and 2 shot derringers are not on your list of candidates, nor rimfire guns. With that in mind, the winner is:
Sig P365.
I'm not sure if it is actually the smallest, but if you go to handgunhero.com you can find out. They are perfectly reliable. I owned and carried one for the same factors you asked about--size and reliability. But, I also liked the 365 for factors that you didn't ask about--ammo capacity and night sights. I looked hard at the G43 and G43x, but they are single stack guns and come with the Glock plastic sights. However, I ultimately sold my 365 to my sister (who still carries it) and went with the 365XL, because it has a slide milled for a red dot. No regrets. You'll find that almost everyone loves the P365. If they don't, it's due to personal preference, not function.
Kahr PM9 and CM9
The PM is the CM with just "better" parts. Otherwise they are the same same. I owned and carried a PM9 for several years. At the time, it really was the smallest 9mm available. Mine had night sights and with the extended magazine, carried 7+1 rds (the standard flush fit mag is 6 rds). It was fine. That trigger isn't for everyone. It's a lonnggg pull--like a double action revolver. It didn't bother me, but some folks absolutely hate it. I sold it and swapped into the Sig P365 for the higher ammo capacity. Plus, the P365 grip was a big improvement for me.
Sig P238
This is the .380 version of the P938. My buddy carries a P938 regularly and really likes it. I've shot the 938 and don't have any serious gripes about it, but I don't want an external safety on my carry gun. I sold my P238 mostly because of the safety. I went to the Kahr PM9, because I could get a 9mm gun in the roughly the same size as my .380 without the safety and it was 9mm. At the time, .380's were not nearly as well-accepted as a "real" self-defense guns, and more importantly, the ammo was about 50% more expensive than 9mm. It was a win/win for me--better caliber and cheaper to shoot.
I have also owned some others. Some I still have, some have been sold. But, the above guns are the ones that best fit your criteria and are guns that I have experience with.
Good point about the night sights. I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
I've owned a Kahr P-380 for probably 10 years. I've had some issues but have overall worked them out. It is picky about ammo, and not forgiving of a weak grip. It is also extremely accurate for such a small gun. I like the trigger. If I was strictly shooting targets, I would prefer a 2 lb. 1911 style trigger, but I have no problem and actually prefer a long smooth trigger with no safety on a defensive gun, especially one that could be dropped in a pocket or put in a fanny pack without a holster.
I am a bit concerned about reliability issues with the Kahr considering the issues I had with the P-380. The Glock 43 I owned before the 43X came out never malfunctioned with any ammo.
I've owned a Kahr P-380 for probably 10 years. I've had some issues but have overall worked them out. It is picky about ammo, and not forgiving of a weak grip. It is also extremely accurate for such a small gun. I like the trigger. If I was strictly shooting targets, I would prefer a 2 lb. 1911 style trigger, but I have no problem and actually prefer a long smooth trigger with no safety on a defensive gun, especially one that could be dropped in a pocket or put in a fanny pack without a holster.
I am a bit concerned about reliability issues with the Kahr considering the issues I had with the P-380. The Glock 43 I owned before the 43X came out never malfunctioned with any ammo.
The P380 is well known among Kahr fans for some curable problems and ammo sensitivity. It's a different animal. The PM and CM9 begin as the same platform and inner dimensions as the P9, and appear to continue the same tradition of reliability. My bone stock CM9 has been perfectly reliable with all the various loads I've tried in it. I suspect that it could be subject to limp wristing effects with some people, but I haven't seen it.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
For starters, I am assuming that 1 and 2 shot derringers are not on your list of candidates, nor rimfire guns. With that in mind, the winner is:
Sig P365.
I'm not sure if it is actually the smallest, but if you go to handgunhero.com you can find out. They are perfectly reliable. I owned and carried one for the same factors you asked about--size and reliability. But, I also liked the 365 for factors that you didn't ask about--ammo capacity and night sights. I looked hard at the G43 and G43x, but they are single stack guns and come with the Glock plastic sights. However, I ultimately sold my 365 to my sister (who still carries it) and went with the 365XL, because it has a slide milled for a red dot. No regrets. You'll find that almost everyone loves the P365. If they don't, it's due to personal preference, not function.
Kahr PM9 and CM9
The PM is the CM with just "better" parts. Otherwise they are the same same. I owned and carried a PM9 for several years. At the time, it really was the smallest 9mm available. Mine had night sights and with the extended magazine, carried 7+1 rds (the standard flush fit mag is 6 rds). It was fine. That trigger isn't for everyone. It's a lonnggg pull--like a double action revolver. It didn't bother me, but some folks absolutely hate it. I sold it and swapped into the Sig P365 for the higher ammo capacity. Plus, the P365 grip was a big improvement for me.
Sig P238
This is the .380 version of the P938. My buddy carries a P938 regularly and really likes it. I've shot the 938 and don't have any serious gripes about it, but I don't want an external safety on my carry gun. I sold my P238 mostly because of the safety. I went to the Kahr PM9, because I could get a 9mm gun in the roughly the same size as my .380 without the safety and it was 9mm. At the time, .380's were not nearly as well-accepted as a "real" self-defense guns, and more importantly, the ammo was about 50% more expensive than 9mm. It was a win/win for me--better caliber and cheaper to shoot.
I have also owned some others. Some I still have, some have been sold. But, the above guns are the ones that best fit your criteria and are guns that I have experience with.
Good point about the night sights. I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
I had a P365, a hellcat Micro and a Kahr CM9.
The CM9 (PM9) is the smallest 9mm I've ever seen or handled. I could actually carry it comfortably in my front pocket, which I can NOT do with any other 9mm, including the Hellcat Micro or the P365.
Some bemoan the trigger because of the looong stroke. It's a great trigger, like a well tuned double-action S&W trigger. But I suggest you try the trigger before you buy one.
The PM9 besides the upgraded barrel and slide morphology, has front & rear sight dovetails. The 'P' series Kahr's 'generally' come with night sights and 3 magazines.
The CM9's front sight is staked or? and it takes someone with the correct tools to put night sights on one. Night sights, last I checked (awhile ago) were available thru Kahr.
I sold my CM9 only because it did not have night sights on it, was considering getting the slide milled for a front sight, but instead decided to sell it and get a PM9 (which I have yet to do).
Besides the CM9, I've had a CW9, a TP45 and now have a P45. No issues and I was surprised at how accurate they are... I could never shoot a 2" or 3" S&W as well.
The CM/PM9's shine for an always on you gun that you don't have to dress around... slip it into your pocket holster and head out the door.
I could shoot a tighter group on the same targets with my P380 than I could with the Glock 43. The Glock was combat accurate, but my last few Glocks have not been nearly as accurate as my much older Glock 36. That was the reason I have let them go.
I know and can confirm of one reliable 9mm that is smaller than the CM/PM9. And I'm surprised that the usual fanatic hasn't brought it up, but that could be because it's discontinued.
The Keltec PF9. It also has a long but good trigger. But the loose tolerances that probably make it reliable must be why it isn't very accurate by Sig or Kahr standards. Also much less comfortable to shoot.
I know and can confirm of one reliable 9mm that is smaller than the CM/PM9. And I'm surprised that the usual fanatic hasn't brought it up, but that could be because it's discontinued.
The Keltec PF9. It also has a long but good trigger. But the loose tolerances that probably make it reliable must be why it isn't very accurate by Sig or Kahr standards. Also much less comfortable to shoot.
I think that's the gun Nutnfancy used to rave about.
I wish I could say 43 but my results are different than most folks. Have around 750 rounds through my sample of one. It has in the last 100 rounds failed to get next round in the chamber. I am going to change the mag springs and see if that cures it.
I am leaning toward the Kahr CM9 or a used PM9. I've owned a 43 which was reliable but not exceptional in any way. I might be interested in a Sig 365 but I could basically buy two CM 9's for the same price. I haven't seen the Hellcat.
The single action sigs are great guns I am sure, but I don't favor single action for pocket carry. With a good holster fine but I don't feel as comfortable just dropping it in a coat pocket like I do with the Kahr. A light trigger Glock is about the same for needing a dedicated holster IMHO.
The Hellcat micro compact is a half inch longer than the CM9. OTOH, some people just can't get used to the Kahr trigger - which IMO, is excellent. But I've been living with Kahrs since they first appeared, so there's that.
I had no problems with the Kahr trigger once I got used to it.
It was easier getting used to the trigger on my Hellcat micro, though since I’ve carried Glocks for so many years.
I wouldn’t hesitate to carry the small Kahr 9mm again, other than the magazine capacity.
Between my Springfield HellCat and my Sig P365, I like the HellCat slightly more. Fits my hands a little better. And the 15 + 1 capacity and a spare 15 round mag as a backup is a lot more “reassuring” than when I carried the Kahr 9mm.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
I did a lot of DA revolver shooting back in the day. To me the Kahr trigger is very similar to a SW M10, or M19 I did a lot of shooting with. Just a long smooth stroke of the trigger. It's a trigger that someone unfamiliar might need to shoot a bit to get used to, but it's a nice shootable trigger.
I did a lot of DA revolver shooting back in the day. To me the Kahr trigger is very similar to a SW M10, or M19 I did a lot of shooting with. Just a long smooth stroke of the trigger. It's a trigger that someone unfamiliar might need to shoot a bit to get used to, but it's a nice shootable trigger.
Yep.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
I had a CW9 for a few years, it's a little bigger than the CM9, but it was always reliable.
My PM9 was absolutely reliable for the 12 years I carried it. Had the armoror for Miami-Dade PD go through it when I first got it. The LGS where I bought it put me in touch with him. I told him to do whatever he would do to it if it was his gun. Came out great.
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want.
I did a lot of DA revolver shooting back in the day. To me the Kahr trigger is very similar to a SW M10, or M19 I did a lot of shooting with. Just a long smooth stroke of the trigger. It's a trigger that someone unfamiliar might need to shoot a bit to get used to, but it's a nice shootable trigger.
Yep. There's a lot of guys wishing Justin Moon would get with the times and increase the capacity. Even if only by a little.
I did a lot of DA revolver shooting back in the day. To me the Kahr trigger is very similar to a SW M10, or M19 I did a lot of shooting with. Just a long smooth stroke of the trigger. It's a trigger that someone unfamiliar might need to shoot a bit to get used to, but it's a nice shootable trigger.
Yep. There's a lot of guys wishing Justin Moon would get with the times and increase the capacity. Even if only by a little.
I like the cw9, except for the capacity..
Kahr keeps fuggin themselves…
Dave
�The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it.� Lou Holtz
I have a 365, it's about the smallest thing that can easily be shot well. Mine came with 12 rounders and the fillers. I've never wanted 10 rounders, the shorter grip ain't worth the short grip.
Don't get too caught up on "small", within reason bigger is always better. Small only helps with concealment, and hurts every gun/shooter performance.
Do you carry because the gun is little, Or do you carry to be able to defend yourself?
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
I have a 365, it's about the smallest thing that can easily be shot well. Mine came with 12 rounders and the fillers. I've never wanted 10 rounders, the shorter grip ain't worth the short grip.
Don't get too caught up on "small", within reason bigger is always better. Small only helps with concealment, and hurts every gun/shooter performance.
Do you carry because the gun is little, Or do you carry to be able to defend yourself?
This +10 my 365's are the tits, but my CZ75B with a 19 rd mec gar hanging out the bottom is all business stuffed with 147 fmj's..mb
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
I did a lot of DA revolver shooting back in the day. To me the Kahr trigger is very similar to a SW M10, or M19 I did a lot of shooting with. Just a long smooth stroke of the trigger. It's a trigger that someone unfamiliar might need to shoot a bit to get used to, but it's a nice shootable trigger.
This is exactly what I've always said about the Kahr triggers. I, too, cut my teeth on double action S&W K-Frames starting in 1980. Once that trigger is fundamentally learned, switching to the Kahr is easy. People who started on semi-automatics, though, tended to hate the Kahr trigger.
I used to work behind the gun counter of a gun shop, and I was always surprised when someone would try the Kahr trigger and say it was terrible. Invariably, though, they were people who had no familiarity with double action revolvers.
I did a lot of DA revolver shooting back in the day. To me the Kahr trigger is very similar to a SW M10, or M19 I did a lot of shooting with. Just a long smooth stroke of the trigger. It's a trigger that someone unfamiliar might need to shoot a bit to get used to, but it's a nice shootable trigger.
This is exactly what I've always said about the Kahr triggers. I, too, cut my teeth on double action S&W K-Frames starting in 1980. Once that trigger is fundamentally learned, switching to the Kahr is easy. People who started on semi-automatics, though, tended to hate the Kahr trigger.
I used to work behind the gun counter of a gun shop, and I was always surprised when someone would try the Kahr trigger and say it was terrible. Invariably, though, they were people who had no familiarity with double action revolvers.
Yep. I've seen the same thing. In fact, it's how I came to acquire the CM9. A friend who started handgunning late in life and never held any revolver just couldn't warm up to that trigger, even after I showed him how to use it.
I know and can confirm of one reliable 9mm that is smaller than the CM/PM9. And I'm surprised that the usual fanatic hasn't brought it up, but that could be because it's discontinued.
The Keltec PF9. It also has a long but good trigger. But the loose tolerances that probably make it reliable must be why it isn't very accurate by Sig or Kahr standards. Also much less comfortable to shoot.
I have to retract that. Memory fail. The PF9 is actually slightly larger (though thinner and lighter) than the CM9. Guess that's why I never look at it anymore.
.... The Rohrbaugh.....we were supposed to be talking about reliable options. I almost wanted to buy one back when they hit the scene. But test reports were unconvincing.
I have a 365, it's about the smallest thing that can easily be shot well. Mine came with 12 rounders and the fillers. I've never wanted 10 rounders, the shorter grip ain't worth the short grip.
Don't get too caught up on "small", within reason bigger is always better. Small only helps with concealment, and hurts every gun/shooter performance.
Do you carry because the gun is little, Or do you carry to be able to defend yourself?
Nobody disagrees with that. These pocket pistols are for times that you can't carry a real gun. Or for the NY Reload.
Having said that, it's not boasting to say that I can shoot the CM9 well enough for personal use. Good sights, great trigger, and great ergonomics go a long way - as does familiarity.
JMHO. Do you carry because the gun is little, Or do you carry to be able to defend yourself?
A agree. Like someone said in another thread, it's good to carry a gun you can fight with. I've carried a Sig 938 and could never warm up to it. I have and occasionally carry a Sig P239 but don't care for the bulk for the ammo capacity I get. Fine shooter, though. So the smallest I carry now is a Glock 26. It will fit nicely in a jacket pocket or a cargo shorts front pocket. I carry it with a snap on Clipdraw Trigger guard. It's a platform I'm familiar with. Even with a Pearce magazine pinky support, it's a really small package. And if I think I want to carry a spare mag, I can carry any mag for a G26, G19 or G17. I put an XGrip on a G19 mag for 15 rounds. With 147 grain non-+P loads, it is extremely managable even in rapid fire.
Nobody disagrees with that. These pocket pistols are for times that you can't carry a real gun. Or for the NY Reload.
Exactly. 99% of my daily carry is a Glock 26 in an IWB, but for something like a doctor's or dentist's appointment, I usually put that away and stick a Sig P238, cocked and locked, in an Alabama front pants pocket holster and pocket carry that till I get back home.
For cooler/cold weather I have a G27 in my waist band. It hold a few less rounds but works for me. Many people hate the G2/G27 guns. I happen to love them.
JMHO. Do you carry because the gun is little, Or do you carry to be able to defend yourself?
A agree. Like someone said in another thread, it's good to carry a gun you can fight with. I've carried a Sig 938 and could never warm up to it. I have and occasionally carry a Sig P239 but don't care for the bulk for the ammo capacity I get. Fine shooter, though. So the smallest I carry now is a Glock 26. It will fit nicely in a jacket pocket or a cargo shorts front pocket. I carry it with a snap on Clipdraw Trigger guard. It's a platform I'm familiar with. Even with a Pearce magazine pinky support, it's a really small package. And if I think I want to carry a spare mag, I can carry any mag for a G26, G19 or G17. I put an XGrip on a G19 mag for 15 rounds. With 147 grain non-+P loads, it is extremely managable even in rapid fire.
My Glock 36 is just as easily concealed as a 26 in most situations. A micro is for those other situations.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
Just thought I'd post this for all the pocket carrying, micro 9mm guys.................
Interesting read & comments from a very experience operator about being able to actually be able to fight at more than touching distance.
In today's world, incidents other than just protection against a close up & personal attack are becoming more & more prevalent & that incidence is likely to go nowhere but up.
I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
Snap off the front plastic sight with a pliers and there are two holes in the slide. The replacement sight will have two legs to fit the holes, with the rear one threaded. Loctite and insert screw from the bottom.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
I used to carry a P938. Now I carry a P365xl. I know its not the smallest. But I feel a lot more comfortable with the p365xl. Its still small enough and I shoot it better. And if I ever need it, there's no down side to having a 15 round mag.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
Just thought I'd post this for all the pocket carrying, micro 9mm guys.................
Interesting read & comments from a very experience operator about being able to actually be able to fight at more than touching distance.
In today's world, incidents other than just protection against a close up & personal attack are becoming more & more prevalent & that incidence is likely to go nowhere but up.
I understand the sentiment and because of that I carry a full-sized H&K USP 40 most times in the winter when I wear a jacket. I carry a G36 other times. The micro is for bike rides when I might be dog attacked, or possibly threatened in any other ways. I don't expect to defeat a mass shooter with one. Even a G36 is too big to endure during a full day in the saddle.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
Just thought I'd post this for all the pocket carrying, micro 9mm guys.................
Interesting read & comments from a very experience operator about being able to actually be able to fight at more than touching distance.
In today's world, incidents other than just protection against a close up & personal attack are becoming more & more prevalent & that incidence is likely to go nowhere but up.
That's all fine and dandy, but most everyone I've come across in the real world quits carrying their full sized pistols over a period of time, other than a few individuals in high threat environments or old retired white guys with nothing better to do. Sometimes folks will pack a full size gun after a high profile shooting gets their feathers riled up, then they shift back down to a more comfortable gun after a while. You see the same circle of life with internet gun carry threads. There's a constant cycle between "what's the smallest gun for xxxx" to "you need a full sized gun for battling a terrorist cell" and then back again, with a bunch of the same cast of characters. A P365 handles both situations.
I have owned PM9, Shield, G43, G26 and the P365 is more accurate in my hands than the others. Considering usual internet paranoia when something happens, the P365 xmacro 17 round magazine can be carried in your pocket.
I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
Snap off the front plastic sight with a pliers and there are two holes in the slide. The replacement sight will have two legs to fit the holes, with the rear one threaded. Loctite and insert screw from the bottom.
That seems simple enough. Thanks, JOG. Now if I just knew where to get those night sights. And this is why one might want to go with the PM instead of the CM. I'm still searching for night sights.
I understand the sentiment and because of that I carry a full-sized H&K USP 40 most times in the winter when I wear a jacket. I carry a G36 other times. The micro is for bike rides when I might be dog attacked, or possibly threatened in any other ways. I don't expect to defeat a mass shooter with one. Even a G36 is too big to endure during a full day in the saddle.
It seems like sometimes the viability of a lightweight shoulder holster, discreetly carrying a pretty fair sized revolver at a slight downward angle (higher in the back than the front) so it can be very quickly and easily accessed from under a sweatshirt, is forgotten. No need for any kind of belt or IWB holster, or even any belt at all (elastic waistband shorts or sweat pants won’t keep falling down), and the shoulders bear any weight for all day comfort. But, I suppose that’s really not an option for those with no revolver experience.
I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
Snap off the front plastic sight with a pliers and there are two holes in the slide. The replacement sight will have two legs to fit the holes, with the rear one threaded. Loctite and insert screw from the bottom.
That seems simple enough. Thanks, JOG. Now if I just knew where to get those night sights. And this is why one might want to go with the PM instead of the CM. I'm still searching for night sights.
I saw a CM somewhere in the last few days that had night sights when I was checking prices. It might have come up from Guns International.
I understand the sentiment and because of that I carry a full-sized H&K USP 40 most times in the winter when I wear a jacket. I carry a G36 other times. The micro is for bike rides when I might be dog attacked, or possibly threatened in any other ways. I don't expect to defeat a mass shooter with one. Even a G36 is too big to endure during a full day in the saddle.
It seems like sometimes the viability of a lightweight shoulder holster, carrying the gun at a slight downward angle so it can be very quickly and easily accessed from under a sweatshirt, is forgotten.
Imagine flying down hills in a completely urban but low traffic area at night on an 18lb racing bicycle that would be at home in the TDF. Even the wheel axels are titanium to save weight. Your water bottle holders are carbon fiber. You look like you are dressed to go deep sea diving, but that's ok because you have experienced the perils of loose clothing before. In such a situation you want the lightest smallest and most reliable possible sidearm.
I have only been attacked once by a dog pack. One trying to get my leg caused a crash that hurt for 6 months. I was surrounded by snapping dogs. I got off the bike prepared to beat them to death with it, if necessary, but they relented. I went on and got up speed and one had been following where I couldn't see it before it caused a higher speed crash. I wouldn't shoot someone's barking and chasing dog. I've been chased hundreds of times but only honestly attacked once. It was enough to make me not want to experience it again. Yes, I do often carry spray as a first deterrent. I have however seen it just further anger a pit looking dog that I simply outran after squirting.
It seems like sometimes the viability of a lightweight shoulder holster, discreetly carrying a pretty fair sized revolver at a slight downward angle (higher in the back than in the front) so it can be very quickly and easily accessed from under a sweatshirt, is forgotten.
I have only been attacked once by a dog pack. One trying to get my leg caused a crash that hurt for 6 months. I was surrounded by snapping dogs. I got off the bike prepared to beat them to death with it, if necessary, but they relented. I went on and got up speed and one had been following where I couldn't see it before it caused a higher speed crash. I wouldn't shoot someone's barking and chasing dog. I've been chased hundreds of times but only honestly attacked once. It was enough to make me not want to experience it again. Yes, I do often carry spray as a first deterrent. I have however seen it just further anger a pit looking dog that I simply outran after squirting.
A revolver offers the option of loading CCI Shot Cartridges with choice of two different shot sizes (light or heavy), mild wadcutters, and/or full strength loads. Seems like highly effective viscous dog (or other highly dangerous attacker) repellent with reduced risk to nearby “non-combatants.” But, if deployment becomes necessary, I would certainly not stop there to explain, or even travel that same route again for quite some time. Someone severely damaging the “gentle, loving, family pooch” would not likely be greeted warmly by those persons alerted by the commotion.
I understand the sentiment and because of that I carry a full-sized H&K USP 40 most times in the winter when I wear a jacket. I carry a G36 other times. The micro is for bike rides when I might be dog attacked, or possibly threatened in any other ways. I don't expect to defeat a mass shooter with one. Even a G36 is too big to endure during a full day in the saddle.
It seems like sometimes the viability of a lightweight shoulder holster, carrying the gun at a slight downward angle so it can be very quickly and easily accessed from under a sweatshirt, is forgotten.
Imagine flying down hills in a completely urban but low traffic area at night on an 18lb racing bicycle that would be at home in the TDF. Even the wheel axels are titanium to save weight. Your water bottle holders are carbon fiber. You look like you are dressed to go deep sea diving, but that's ok because you have experienced the perils of loose clothing before. In such a situation you want the lightest smallest and most reliable possible sidearm.
I have only been attacked once by a dog pack. One trying to get my leg caused a crash that hurt for 6 months. I was surrounded by snapping dogs. I got off the bike prepared to beat them to death with it, if necessary, but they relented. I went on and got up speed and one had been following where I couldn't see it before it caused a higher speed crash. I wouldn't shoot someone's barking and chasing dog. I've been chased hundreds of times but only honestly attacked once. It was enough to make me not want to experience it again. Yes, I do often carry spray as a first deterrent. I have however seen it just further anger a pit looking dog that I simply outran after squirting.
Yeah, I can understand that scenario & a larger gun won't work.
For that condition, I think I'd try one of the elastic/neoprene type waistband rigs that goes inside your pants with something line a single stack or maybe even a J-frame.
I understand the sentiment and because of that I carry a full-sized H&K USP 40 most times in the winter when I wear a jacket. I carry a G36 other times. The micro is for bike rides when I might be dog attacked, or possibly threatened in any other ways. I don't expect to defeat a mass shooter with one. Even a G36 is too big to endure during a full day in the saddle.
It seems like sometimes the viability of a lightweight shoulder holster, carrying the gun at a slight downward angle so it can be very quickly and easily accessed from under a sweatshirt, is forgotten.
Imagine flying down hills in a completely urban but low traffic area at night on an 18lb racing bicycle that would be at home in the TDF. Even the wheel axels are titanium to save weight. Your water bottle holders are carbon fiber. You look like you are dressed to go deep sea diving, but that's ok because you have experienced the perils of loose clothing before. In such a situation you want the lightest smallest and most reliable possible sidearm.
I have only been attacked once by a dog pack. One trying to get my leg caused a crash that hurt for 6 months. I was surrounded by snapping dogs. I got off the bike prepared to beat them to death with it, if necessary, but they relented. I went on and got up speed and one had been following where I couldn't see it before it caused a higher speed crash. I wouldn't shoot someone's barking and chasing dog. I've been chased hundreds of times but only honestly attacked once. It was enough to make me not want to experience it again. Yes, I do often carry spray as a first deterrent. I have however seen it just further anger a pit looking dog that I simply outran after squirting.
Yeah, I can understand that scenario & a larger gun won't work.
For that condition, I think I'd try one of the elastic/neoprene type waistband rigs that goes inside your pants with something line a single stack or maybe even a J-frame.
MM
That's where my thinking has headed. J-frame does have the advantage of being able to load a shotshell or a Glaser and still be 100% reliable. That's why I started the S&W quality thread.
The P365 is my most carried handgun now and I'd recommend it. I shoot it well despite it's size. There's smaller but the P365 keeps a compact size, has good round count for a compact with the option for larger mags, it's been reliable for me, and most importantly, I shoot it well.
If going the revolver route, I haven't used any of the recent model J-frames, but I'm a fan of the Ruger LCR. I use the smaller for pocket carry but prefer shooting the 3" model. Crimson Trace grips could be a nice addition...not required but it could be helpful on a moving dog, especially if in a physical position not normally used when shooting and sight alignment could be tough.
The HPG kit bag would be an easy way to carry while biking, easily accessible, and for any other small items like a phone, keys, etc. It works across different models/types. With a kydex trigger guard tied off to the inner tab, the side can be left unzipped for one hand access.
That's where my thinking has headed. J-frame does have the advantage of being able to load a shotshell or a Glaser and still be 100% reliable. That's why I started the S&W quality thread.
While the carrying of a self defense J-Frame loaded with different specialty rounds of increasing strength and effectiveness is not usually recommended, the bike rider versus viscous dog scenario presents an obvious exception, if done with some thought to the potential for differing hostile encounters. Loading the cylinder to present its 5 rounds in the following order is one possibility: a CCI light shot; a CCI heavy shot, a light target wadcutter or a Glaser; a plus P hollow point; and a final plus P hollow point. Depending upon the anticipated need, either another CCI heavy shot or another plus P hollow point could be substituted for the wadcutter or Glaser.
If viscous dogs are anticipated to be the only reasonable possibility, then loading all CCI shot cartridges would seem best, and in an AirLite revolver. Out of the snub nosed revolver, CCI shot spreads out surprisingly quickly, allowing some margin for aiming error. Within a remarkably short distance, the spread is so great as to minimize effectiveness on small targets (vipers and such), but may still discourage an attacking dog. However, the closer it gets to you, the worse it’ll be for it. For your anti-dog purposes, your shots need not be particularly effective beyond 3 or 4 yards; in fact, it’s better if they’re not.
I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
Snap off the front plastic sight with a pliers and there are two holes in the slide. The replacement sight will have two legs to fit the holes, with the rear one threaded. Loctite and insert screw from the bottom.
That seems simple enough. Thanks, JOG. Now if I just knew where to get those night sights. And this is why one might want to go with the PM instead of the CM. I'm still searching for night sights.
I saw a CM somewhere in the last few days that had night sights when I was checking prices. It might have come up from Guns International.
"And this is why one might want to go with the PM instead of the CM." When weighing the cost of the P/PM_ over the CW/M_ series consider the cost of night sights and that you 'generally' get two additional magazines (w/ the P/PM series).
Also, due to tritium having a limited lifespan, when ordering night sights I usually tell the sales rep that I want the ones with the latest manufacture date.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
Just thought I'd post this for all the pocket carrying, micro 9mm guys.................
Interesting read & comments from a very experience operator about being able to actually be able to fight at more than touching distance.
In today's world, incidents other than just protection against a close up & personal attack are becoming more & more prevalent & that incidence is likely to go nowhere but up.
That's all fine and dandy, but most everyone I've come across in the real world quits carrying their full sized pistols over a period of time, other than a few individuals in high threat environments or old retired white guys with nothing better to do. Sometimes folks will pack a full size gun after a high profile shooting gets their feathers riled up, then they shift back down to a more comfortable gun after a while. You see the same circle of life with internet gun carry threads. There's a constant cycle between "what's the smallest gun for xxxx" to "you need a full sized gun for battling a terrorist cell" and then back again, with a bunch of the same cast of characters. A P365 handles both situations.
Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.
The information was put out there. Some people can learn from it, and some will brush it off. To each their own. It reminds me of many years ago when I worked as a Trooper on the interstate during the winter time. You would see people flying past on snowy and ice covered roads. They would be doing 60,70, even 80+ miles an hour on a sheet of ice.
Invariably they would end up rolling their vehicle, or crashing into something. I heard the same two things over and over, year after year.
"I don't know what happened" and "I am a good driver, really"
Some people can learn from the experience of others and some will ignore those lessons and rely on a strategy of hope and luck.
If hope and luck if a person's strategy for personal protection or driving in the winter time, so be it. I choose to slow down, wear a seat belt and carry a gun that I can perform well with.
Others can do as they see fit.
Most people will never need their seat belt!
Hopefully.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL.
The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.
Smallest thing in 9mm that I carry is a Taurus G3c . Yep , it's cheap but in over 2000 rounds it's also been 100% reliable.
+1 for the Taurus G3c. Local Dunham's always has sales going on. I had been eyeballing the G3c, Hellcat, Glock 43 for some time.
Dunham's had Black Friday G3c $199 after $30 rebate. Bought it. Bought a UM Tactical IWB plastic holster also that had Black Friday discounts, $28 including ship.
To date I have ~300 rounds through it, mostly 115, 124, 147 std velo with some Speer 124 +P Gold Dot in the mix. Shoots n feeds reliable, 12+1 capacity.
Prior to the G3c for edc I used either FEG P9M or Taurus 445TI 44 special w/hard cast 220 gr gcswc at 850 fps.
I like what Mackay said above, hope to never need my seat belt.
Edit to add: Always practice situational awareness
I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
Snap off the front plastic sight with a pliers and there are two holes in the slide. The replacement sight will have two legs to fit the holes, with the rear one threaded. Loctite and insert screw from the bottom.
That seems simple enough. Thanks, JOG. Now if I just knew where to get those night sights. And this is why one might want to go with the PM instead of the CM. I'm still searching for night sights.
Well...when I looked before, I couldn't find them anywhere, even on Kahr's website. But now I managed with a search to find Truglo Tritiums on the Kahr site for all C and S series.
I had a P365 for a while but I found the magazines difficult to load and also had a few occasions where the the slide did not return to battery. I now carry a P239 and it has been trouble free and accurate.
I have a 365, it's about the smallest thing that can easily be shot well. Mine came with 12 rounders and the fillers. I've never wanted 10 rounders, the shorter grip ain't worth the short grip.
Don't get too caught up on "small", within reason bigger is always better. Small only helps with concealment, and hurts every gun/shooter performance.
Do you carry because the gun is little, Or do you carry to be able to defend yourself?
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Also agree with the guys that say to try them out first.
Decades of voting for the lesser of two evils has gotten us just that.....
Have a ported Shield that is about as small as I would want to go. If a plus had been on the shelf at the time, I would have snagged that instead. Has been dead nuts reliable. More than I can say for my 5" M&P
FWIW: I'd recommend a holster for whatever gun you choose. Keeps some gunk out it and disguises it a little; but mainly keeps it pointed in the right direction.
I can add this since the thread came back up I've got a Springfield hellcat Pro have only shot it like 200 rounds but it's been absolutely flawless. but I'm sure there's smaller pistols that have worked just as good. they may not be as use your friendly but they probably work as good..
I don't know if you can get them for the CM9. At any rate, the front sight isn't dovetailed, so changing isn't so easy. They are available on the PM9 though. Currently, there are P-series Kahrs with a light/laser rail (actually labeled S series), but not any of the micros.
Snap off the front plastic sight with a pliers and there are two holes in the slide. The replacement sight will have two legs to fit the holes, with the rear one threaded. Loctite and insert screw from the bottom.
That seems simple enough. Thanks, JOG. Now if I just knew where to get those night sights. And this is why one might want to go with the PM instead of the CM. I'm still searching for night sights.
I saw a CM somewhere in the last few days that had night sights when I was checking prices. It might have come up from Guns International.
"And this is why one might want to go with the PM instead of the CM." When weighing the cost of the P/PM_ over the CW/M_ series consider the cost of night sights and that you 'generally' get two additional magazines (w/ the P/PM series).
Also, due to tritium having a limited lifespan, when ordering night sights I usually tell the sales rep that I want the ones with the latest manufacture date.
Hey, just want to thank you and JOG. Ordered and installed the front sight. No real special tools, but it helps if you're built for microsurgery. Did it in a tray to reduce the possibility of losing those tiny machine screws.
A bit of a tangent here since the original topic has been fairly well hashed out. Carrying on a bicycle is a conversation that comes up fairly often. There isn't a great solution. Anything body worn will get drenched with salty sweat. A holster that mounts to the head tube/top tube/down tube junction would allow for a quick draw. For dogs, a revolver with a few rounds of rat shot up front would probably be ideal.
As a dog lover, I DO NOT want to shoot someone's family member. In my experience, the overwhelming number of dogs that chase are doing it for the chase and will quit when I stop. In most cases, I can sprint away from dogs, and that is normally my first course of action. The downside to that is that if they cause a crash, that crash occurs at a higher speed. If I am on an uphill, I'll stop and dismount on the opposite side of the bike.
I have gotten off my bike and chased dogs off the road. Interestingly after doing so, those dogs have never been an issue again. Some of these interactions rely on instinct. So far my instincts have served me well.
One thing is for sure, after an armed encounter with a dog, a bicyclist better be ready for an encounter with the dog owner. Whether that encounter be a weaponized motor vehicle or an armed and angry pet owner. Because of the latter a low capacity small gun that would be fine for dog encounters may no longer be suitable.
A bit of a tangent here since the original topic has been fairly well hashed out. Carrying on a bicycle is a conversation that comes up fairly often. There isn't a great solution. Anything body worn will get drenched with salty sweat. A holster that mounts to the head tube/top tube/down tube junction would allow for a quick draw. For dogs, a revolver with a few rounds of rat shot up front would probably be ideal.
As a dog lover, I DO NOT want to shoot someone's family member. In my experience, the overwhelming number of dogs that chase are doing it for the chase and will quit when I stop. In most cases, I can sprint away from dogs, and that is normally my first course of action. The downside to that is that if they cause a crash, that crash occurs at a higher speed. If I am on an uphill, I'll stop and dismount on the opposite side of the bike.
I have gotten off my bike and chased dogs off the road. Interestingly after doing so, those dogs have never been an issue again. Some of these interactions rely on instinct. So far my instincts have served me well.
One thing is for sure, after an armed encounter with a dog, a bicyclist better be ready for an encounter with the dog owner. Whether that encounter be a weaponized motor vehicle or an armed and angry pet owner. Because of the latter a low capacity small gun that would be fine for dog encounters may no longer be suitable.
Paul, I do agree. I'm not particularly afraid of dogs. Just like you, I have been chased probably hundreds of times. Only once have I been attacked by a dog intent on tasting blood. I usually carry pepper spray, and since a bad crash caused by an attacking dog, I usually dismount to confront any of the possibly serious encounters. I have had one large Pit looking dog only get more aggressive when pepper sprayed though. I won't shoot anybody's dog unless it's absolutely necessary to avoid getting seriously bitten, just like I wouldn't shoot a person unless absolutely necessary.
I don’t carry a micro but in my small town of 7000, I do carry a compact. Mine is the Taurus G3c. It’s a 12+1 mag and comes with 2 extra mags. That’s because I also believe I’m my only protector. If I was concerned about a dog attack, and I know people who have been attacked I’d probably carry a small revolver. But I do know and believe that evil exists out there and never gives you a heads up. Evil plans on surprising us when we are least expecting it. I trust that gun and it’s very reliable. There are no malls in this town but I do occasionally have to run to the grocery store. 380’s aren’t in this guy’s world!
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
my concern with a dog is that if they are chasing you or attacking you you have to move pretty fast to keep from being harmed, then hitting a moving animal is tough, expended bullets have a lawyer attached to each one. A dog attack is a tough one to deal with, then if you carry your CCW in a fanny pack or something, it might be a moment to get it out. How does pepper spray work on dogs? I have never tried it but have wondered if it was effective.
I don’t carry a micro but in my small town of 7000, I do carry a compact. Mine is the Taurus G3c. It’s a 12+1 mag and comes with 2 extra mags. That’s because I also believe I’m my only protector. If I was concerned about a dog attack, and I know people who have been attacked I’d probably carry a small revolver. But I do know and believe that evil exists out there and never gives you a heads up. Evil plans on surprising us when we are least expecting it. I trust that gun and it’s very reliable. There are no malls in this town but I do occasionally have to run to the grocery store. 380’s aren’t in this guy’s world!
The Honest Outlaw (YouTube) recommends the G3 for those on a tight budget who don't already have a concealed carry pistol, but also suggests that, in his experience, they are not 100% reliable. He calls them 99% reliable, but recommends them above the High Point.
my concern with a dog is that if they are chasing you or attacking you you have to move pretty fast to keep from being harmed, then hitting a moving animal is tough, expended bullets have a lawyer attached to each one. A dog attack is a tough one to deal with, then if you carry your CCW in a fanny pack or something, it might be a moment to get it out. How does pepper spray work on dogs? I have never tried it but have wondered if it was effective.
From a tactical situation, a dog or dogs chasing a cyclist is a tough one to manage. In a split second, I'll have to make the decision as to whether or not the dog is a threat and then decide whether to flee, not worry about it or engage. In most cases, a couple of pedal stokes will have me outrunning the dog if fleeing is the best option. With small dogs and dogs that don't seem threatening, I continue to pedal, or maybe coast, and talk to them. If it appears to be a bad dog that I can't run from, I immediately dismount.
I have only pepper sprayed one dog in my life and it hardly reacted. It rubbed its nose on the ground. I am very sensitive to pepper spray, so I have decided that it's not a good choice for me.
I have only had one dog that ever truly worried me. I was able to sprint away from it, but barely. It was a big Rott mix of some sort. I got the vibe that it meant business. I chased a pack of Pits back under their doublewide one time and yelled at their owners. I have chased other dogs back into their yards too. I have dismounted a few times to find that the dogs wanted to have their heads rubbed. Having been a dog person all my life, I guess I am good at understanding them. On occasion, I have put a shoe into them. Maybe I am just lucky that my interactions have never turned bad.
Glock 43X is the smallest 9 that I own, and it's reliable.
I can say the same for my original Glock 43. I've fired it extensively, and have never had a failure of any kind. That said, if I'm looking for a compact 9mm, what I carry is my Glock 26, since it's just as easy to carry and conceal as my Glock 43, and when I need something smaller, I generally go with my Glock 42 (.380 ACP). That usually leaves out the Glock 43.
I had an earlier model S&W Shield that I probably put around 1500 rounds of all kinds of ammo through and can't recall a malfunction. Wish I'd kept it.
I don’t carry a micro but in my small town of 7000, I do carry a compact. Mine is the Taurus G3c. It’s a 12+1 mag and comes with 2 extra mags. That’s because I also believe I’m my only protector. If I was concerned about a dog attack, and I know people who have been attacked I’d probably carry a small revolver. But I do know and believe that evil exists out there and never gives you a heads up. Evil plans on surprising us when we are least expecting it. I trust that gun and it’s very reliable. There are no malls in this town but I do occasionally have to run to the grocery store. 380’s aren’t in this guy’s world!
The Honest Outlaw (YouTube) recommends the G3 for those on a tight budget who don't already have a concealed carry pistol, but also suggests that, in his experience, they are not 100% reliable. He calls them 99% reliable, but recommends them above the High Point.
I don’t carry the G3, Honest Outlaw tested the G3c and G2c and both went 1000 rounds without a single problem. I’m not on a tight budget I run what works for me. If I had a need to carry a full size gun it would be one of my M&P’s. But I don’t. I get rid of any gun that doesn’t work. Honest Outlaw has recommended both of the Taurus compacts multiple times. Carry what you are comfortable with, and fit your hand. Many of the guns recommend on this thread don’t fit my hand.
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Glock 43X is the smallest 9 that I own, and it's reliable.
I can say the same for my original Glock 43. I've fired it extensively, and have never had a failure of any kind. That said, if I'm looking for a compact 9mm, what I carry is my Glock 26, since it's just as easy to carry and conceal as my Glock 43, and when I need something smaller, I generally go with my Glock 42 (.380 ACP). That usually leaves out the Glock 43.
I don’t carry the G3, Honest Outlaw tested the G3c and G2c and both went 1000 rounds without a single problem. I’m not on a tight budget I run what works for me. If I had a need to carry a full size gun it would be one of my M&P’s. But I don’t. I get rid of any gun that doesn’t work. Honest Outlaw has recommended both of the Taurus compacts multiple times. Carry what you are comfortable with, and fit your hand. Many of the guns recommend on this thread don’t fit my hand.
In his most recent video, he did indeed suggest that in his experience it's 99% reliable.
I don’t carry the G3, Honest Outlaw tested the G3c and G2c and both went 1000 rounds without a single problem. I’m not on a tight budget I run what works for me. If I had a need to carry a full size gun it would be one of my M&P’s. But I don’t. I get rid of any gun that doesn’t work. Honest Outlaw has recommended both of the Taurus compacts multiple times. Carry what you are comfortable with, and fit your hand. Many of the guns recommend on this thread don’t fit my hand.
In his most recent video, he did indeed suggest that in his experience it's 99% reliable.
His individual gun may have been, mine’s been 100% reliable. I don’t believe anyone can say that about any manufacturer’s gun, unless and until it’s tested.
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
His individual gun may have been, mine’s been 100% reliable. I don’t believe anyone can say that about any manufacturer’s gun, unless and until it’s tested.
He said he tested three. I'm glad, however, that you've experienced enough reliability with yours that you can trust it to go bang.
I was carrying a Glock 48 last couple years until Makay started this post.....I shoot it well but realized that the ONLY reason I chose it was because it was 1/8" narrower than a 19..... you could make the "shield arms 15 rd mag" argument but the fact is that they will NEVER be as reliable as a factory Glock mag and also can't accept anything else like a 17, 24, or 33 rd mag.
I went back to a 19 3 months ago and have put about 1200 rounds through it and will never go back. My opinion on the pocket guns is that you just haven't found the right holster for your larger gun.... I just don't see the benefit of a pocket pistol anymore.
pretty much how I see it.my Gen 5 19 is one of my most grabbed carry guns. though i am considering a p365 Macro
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I'm starting to have trouble with my hands. The small 9mms are getting hard to work, currently have a springfield 911. I checked out a glock 43X with night sights the other day realy felt good in the hand. It's bigger, than the mircos. I'm thinking about buying it. Trading for it. Seems like alot of guys like the 43-43x, I'm not a big glock guy but carried a 23 for 9 years, for work never failed me!
I was carrying a Glock 48 last couple years until Makay started this post.....I shoot it well but realized that the ONLY reason I chose it was because it was 1/8" narrower than a 19..... you could make the "shield arms 15 rd mag" argument but the fact is that they will NEVER be as reliable as a factory Glock mag and also can't accept anything else like a 17, 24, or 33 rd mag.
I went back to a 19 3 months ago and have put about 1200 rounds through it and will never go back. My opinion on the pocket guns is that you just haven't found the right holster for your larger gun.... I just don't see the benefit of a pocket pistol anymore.
pretty much how I see it.my Gen 5 19 is one of my most grabbed carry guns. though i am considering a p365 Macro
I am really digging my P365 XMacro Comp. That XMacro or XL-size gun is a sweet spot.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
I have to try the XL, I shot the Macro yesterday, and I like the grip frame on the original P365 better, and I shoot it better. Plus you cannot put the macro in your pocket! I think my next step would be the xl for holster carry.
I love my Kahr CM9 Each time I would find something different I just went back to it But than I got a P365 and same size twice the capacity Pretty hard to beat
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Sig 365. Had a lc9 I bought new. After second or 3rd round , magazine would fall out and hit my boot . Sent it back to Ruger and they fixed it , but couldn’t warm up to it after that . Love the sig 365 !
When thinking "small" are you also thinking light weight? I have both a Sig P365 and a Kimber Micro 9! The Sih holds so many rounds, it's far heavier than the Kimber. Also -- the Kimber is noticeably thinner than the Sig, so I carry the Kimber in the summer and the Sig in the winter when I'm wearing heavier clothes!
When thinking "small" are you also thinking light weight? I have both a Sig P365 and a Kimber Micro 9! The Sih holds so many rounds, it's far heavier than the Kimber. Also -- the Kimber is noticeably thinner than the Sig, so I carry the Kimber in the summer and the Sig in the winter when I'm wearing heavier clothes!
What's the weight difference with the same number of rounds in each? That would be more relevant. BTW - the Micro 9 is also bigger in every dimension than the Kahr CM/PM9, and only .3 oz - three tenths of an ounce - lighter.
Still no reliable 9mm pistol that I know of - and certainly none in any post above other than that which has been reported to have questionable reliability - is smaller than the CM/PM9.
Nobody complains about too much ammo in a gunfight.
Absolutely true. But that wasn't the question now, was it? Nobody ever complained about having a longer sight radius or less recoil in a gunfight either, I'd bet.
It’s heavy enough you can throw that pos at the bad guys when it jams.
LGS got two of them in when they first came out. Both jammed and were returned within the week.
You’d be better off with a Taurus G3 C. Or a High Point. 😂
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
I don’t carry the G3, Honest Outlaw tested the G3c and G2c and both went 1000 rounds without a single problem. I’m not on a tight budget I run what works for me. If I had a need to carry a full size gun it would be one of my M&P’s. But I don’t. I get rid of any gun that doesn’t work. Honest Outlaw has recommended both of the Taurus compacts multiple times. Carry what you are comfortable with, and fit your hand. Many of the guns recommend on this thread don’t fit my hand.
In his most recent video, he did indeed suggest that in his experience it's 99% reliable.
His individual gun may have been, mine’s been 100% reliable. I don’t believe anyone can say that about any manufacturer’s gun, unless and until it’s tested.
My little brother and nephew both live their Taurus G3c
Both have been reliable.
I’ll stick with my Sig P-365 or Springfield Hellcat. Both are 100 % reliable and very accurate too
I prefer the Hellcat a little more nowadays as it fits my hand better and the magazines are easier to load than the Sig mags.
If folks ARE on a tight budget, I’d recommend the G3c to them, if they ask.
If I carry a “bigger” 9mm, it’s usually my Glock 19X.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
M&P Shield single stack I got the performance center version
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I picked up a sccy cuz the price was really good. Trigger is a complete piece of dog shidt but decided to go shoot my sig228 and 320 and compare with the sccy.
I was actually impressed for such a cheap gun. I've shot it quite a bit and comparared to the sigs, I'd say FTF's were about equivalent. The whole trigger thing will stop me from carrying it so just for popping paper.
I used to have a Kahr PM9. It was reliable, but I didn't like the long trigger pull. I now carry a Sig P365 because for me it's much more shootable. I also have a Glock 26, which is certainly reliable, but is a bit larger than the P365 and slightly more difficult for me to shoot well.
I think the important question is: what is the smallest 9mm that you can shoot well? It doesn't matter if it's the smallest if you can't shoot it quickly and accurately under stress.
Full sized guns are much easier to shoot than little ones. I shoot IDPA and other gun games, and my IDPA scores with a Sig P320 X5 Legion are quite a bit better than my scores with a P365 on the same course of fire. This is true for most people, and that's why cops shoot duty sized guns.
Small guns are nice to carry, but you do pay some penalty in speed and accuracy.
Probably been said already, but worth repeating, small enough and reliable qualifies many pistols that will always go bang. That's easy to find. big enough to still handle reliably enough to hit accurately is much more important. the M&P Shield Plus! Glock 43x, Glock 48, Taurus G3, Sig 365, original Shield, etc. are also possible candidates, depending on individual hand size.
No argument there, bowmanh & Crash Pad. I can shoot the CM9 pretty good, probably because I have years of experience with the Kahr line. But I shoot the Shield Plus better, even though it's pretty new to me. And that's still a pretty small pistol.
I can not criticize those guns, but is that a fanny pack? Nobody carries those anymore, new trend is crossover bag, chest sling bag,.... Pick something "Square Head" would carry: The North Face, L.L. Bean, Patagonia,..... these do not look suspicious even to police who pay attention to stuff like that.
I can not criticize those guns, but is that a fanny pack? Nobody carries those anymore, new trend is crossover bag, chest sling bag,.... Pick something "Square Head" would carry: The North Face, L.L. Bean, Patagonia,..... these do not look suspicious even to police who pay attention to stuff like that.
lol no , mo fanny pack ... that's the range bag that came with the hellcat Pro value kit or whatever they called it.
The smallest reliable 9mm I ever owned was a PM9. Actually I've owned three over the years and each was 100% reliable. Now, the smallest reliable 9mms I own are Hellcats and P365s. I've owned multiple of each, still do, and they've all been 100% reliable. I would love to be able to put that Kahr trigger in every pistol I own.
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I carry a G19 most of the time but I shoot a HK VP9SK even better but I consider them compacts, not sub-compact. I have considered a 43X but am watching this to see what other’s experiences prove as the best sub-compact. The micro Kimbers are intriguing but don’t sound 💯 reliable.
I have to try the XL, I shot the Macro yesterday, and I like the grip frame on the original P365 better, and I shoot it better. Plus you cannot put the macro in your pocket! I think my next step would be the xl for holster carry.
When I first read your post (specifically that you shot the original P365 better) I really wondered about that. It is a such small handgun. Yesterday my brother in law and I took a few handguns to the range. I really thought the 43X was going to be the winner. I shot it ok. Then I shot a P365 and it was noticeably better.
Then my brother in law pulled out a P365XL and said try this. It did have a Romeo Zero on it. Wow. (Ok: disclaimer. I like shooting handguns but I don’t shoot them more than a few times a year). With the other two pistols I had an acceptable group, with the XL I pretty much had a ragged somewhat elongated hole.
I need a lot more practice, I know that but I really liked the XL. Pretty much what you said. I’ll keep my P365 for pocket carry and buy the XL for holster carry.
I can not criticize those guns, but is that a fanny pack? Nobody carries those anymore, new trend is crossover bag, chest sling bag,.... Pick something "Square Head" would carry: The North Face, L.L. Bean, Patagonia,..... these do not look suspicious even to police who pay attention to stuff like that.
Nobody here cares what police notice. And waste packs are still common. You never fail to amuse.
What current production or at least readily available 9mm is the smallest and most reliable?
. P365 and G43 are probably the two top sellers. And I would equate that to the best two. If you're in the market, best thing to do is to go to a range that rents and do a try out. Don't buy based on the "gun store fondle".
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Did it in a tray to reduce the possibility of losing those tiny machine screws.
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