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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,545 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,545 Likes: 1 |
Sounds like boomer reloader's are resistant to change, lol. This exactly the reason, but not just any particular age group. Just look at any thread on the fire about powders, you'll see a dozen "I've been using imr4350 for 50 years and I'm not changing now!". Handloaders get so stuck with 1 formula (bullet+case+powder+primer) that they'll go buy factory ammo or use a different gun instead of *gasp* trying something new. Newer loaders will say "I was told to use this or don't even try". I work in the retail side of the industry and I hear these things on a daily basis. Personally I love loading and experimenting. You never know what you might discover if you only stick to 1 or 2 powders for everything. Especially if they're old standards because, guess what, shortages WILL happen again. Your favorite powder WILL become unavailable again. So either you suck it and foot the increased bill to but a lifetime supply when you can or you adapt. Agree 100% on this. I like having options, especially in an era where things can get scarce or discontinued at the blink of an eye. I always try to work up loads with a few different powder/bullet combinations for any new rifle I pick up. I hate the physical process itself, but I'm a load fiddler by nature... it's a bit of a contadiction 🤷♂️ I'm always monkeying around with stuff just to see what I can get it to do with new loads, even if I've already got proven shooters for it. And I've evolved to the opposite. From picking a "perfect" powder for every gun, to trying to consolidate on a few that do well in many applications. I really don't need a powder to maximize the 22-250, 243, Swede, 264, 7mag, 308, 30-06, 300win. Two, maybe 3 will do darn fine in all of them. That's where Im at. Stocking up on Varget, H4350, H4831, True Blue, Xterminator and H110. Everything I need to load for I can shoot with these and still find them as of yesterday. They cover all my bases and I have records for other powders that I had in years past that I can refer to if I need to if I find something else cheap. I no longer mess around with different bullets or powders having fun looking for the best load. Those days are behind me, as I'm not willing to put the capital into it it'd require. I'm fortunate in that I was able to play around when I did.
MAGA
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,149 Likes: 11
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,149 Likes: 11 |
Just idle speculation here...With today's technology...I wonder if there is some type of industrial metrology equipment that could give a much more accurate picture of powder burn characteristics than the burn rate chart? If I understand it correctly, burn rates are determined from 'closed bomb' tests. I assume that to mean X amount of propellant is ignited in a closed pressure vessel, and a time/pressure curve is recorded.
As experimenters and reloaders it seems to me our life would be simpler with some kind of pressure /time graph that factored in a method of a volume expander to simulate an actual firing sequence. Something on the order of a vertically mounted smoothbore barrel with a smooth fitting heavily weighted piston or rod maybe.
Every reloader of some experience has experienced contradictory examples of burn rate chart performance. No, powder burn-rate is not determined by a "closed bomb" test, though that's what QuickLoad uses (with one particular lot of powder) for their computer projections. The present pretty-much-standard test in the powder industry is piezo-electronic testing, which does provide an inch-by-inch look at pressure during a bullet's trip down the barrel. This involves a SAAMI-standard barrel and chamber with a hole for a transducer drilled into the the barrel. (Some bullet companies use something like a Pressure Trace, which uses a detector essentially taped to the outside of the action--which also provides an electronic PSI rather than CUP or LUP read-out. If used correctly this results in a very close correlation with piezo pressures.)
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,127 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,127 Likes: 2 |
Thanks for posting this...Who'da thunk it? Leave it to me to be 20 yrs behind the curve...even though I suspected they had something like this to engineer where and how large a gas port should be located.
In any case, the typical burn chart they give us is a skimpy piece of data compared to what they have gathered. We could use it to determine more efficient bbl lengths, silencer design, load development, all kinds of stuff. A lot of tech we take for granted today, was developed in workshops and garages.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,926 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,926 Likes: 2 |
Steve, The more information...in this case we are talking about pressure of a given powder charge with bullet X...they give us, the more we can make informed decisions about what loads will be safe in OUR rifle. That is in the interests of all concerned, tort lawyers and gun owners, IMO. What these decision makers, SAAMI and CIP, are doing now is assuming that since there MAY be someone out there that has a 1901 Remington Rolling Block in 7x57...that ALL 7x57 loads should be tailored to not blow up the 1901. And therein lies the problem...human nature will dictate that we all want our rifles to perform to their design parameters. If they are limited to 1901 tech, why buy modern rifles if the ammo is still 1901?
I say publish the pressure of every handload, it will make our sport safer and better. If you hold back pressure info, people will experiment. The only problem here is, unless you use at least a chonograph, you have no idea how the pressure in your chamber compares to the pressures listed in the manual. Yes, I do apreciate the manuals where pressures are listed. I recently mentioned working up 30-06 loads with a 190 and H4831, where I went above manual max loads. But I used a chrono, and observed that my rifle produced the velocities/load weight as predicted. Some barrels produce 300 fps higher velocity than other barrels with the same load. Higher velocity with the same load, in an equivalent length barrel, always comes as a product of increased pressure. If you have one of these fast/high pressure barrels; and no measure of velocity, you could get in trouble assuming you have larger margins of safety to increase powder charge than are actual.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,124
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,124 |
SAAMI specs take into account spikes. If a pressure is a fair bit lower than the cartridge specs, maybe that powder is spikey at a higher pressure.
You can hunt longer with wind at your back
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,127 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,127 Likes: 2 |
You guys make some very good points ^^^^ Just in my own experience, I had some pressure excursions (as they like to call them) with good old 4320. Every thing is going fine, as powder increases...velocity increases on a nice smooth rising graph...then you reach a point adding powder and the graph goes vertical right now. Maybe that was a factor in discontinuing it, I don't know...but I much lament it's passing.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,101
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23,101 |
Simply put, quit dancing around at the ragged edge of max loads with any powder. You're not proving anything to anybody (Including yourself), and take burn rate charts, no matter their source, with a little grain of salt. They aren't, and never were, intended as gospel merely a comparison aid for the uninitiated. An anecdotal reference if you will.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,944
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,944 |
Sounds like boomer reloader's are resistant to change, lol. This exactly the reason, but not just any particular age group. Just look at any thread on the fire about powders, you'll see a dozen "I've been using imr4350 for 50 years and I'm not changing now!". Handloaders get so stuck with 1 formula (bullet+case+powder+primer) that they'll go buy factory ammo or use a different gun instead of *gasp* trying something new. Newer loaders will say "I was told to use this or don't even try". I work in the retail side of the industry and I hear these things on a daily basis. Personally I love loading and experimenting. You never know what you might discover if you only stick to 1 or 2 powders for everything. Especially if they're old standards because, guess what, shortages WILL happen again. Your favorite powder WILL become unavailable again. So either you suck it and foot the increased bill to but a lifetime supply when you can or you adapt. Agree 100% on this. I like having options, especially in an era where things can get scarce or discontinued at the blink of an eye. I always try to work up loads with a few different powder/bullet combinations for any new rifle I pick up. I hate the physical process itself, but I'm a load fiddler by nature... it's a bit of a contadiction 🤷♂️ I'm always monkeying around with stuff just to see what I can get it to do with new loads, even if I've already got proven shooters for it. And I've evolved to the opposite. From picking a "perfect" powder for every gun, to trying to consolidate on a few that do well in many applications. I really don't need a powder to maximize the 22-250, 243, Swede, 264, 7mag, 308, 30-06, 300win. Two, maybe 3 will do darn fine in all of them. This is me. If it’s one thing I’ve learned in these shortages, consolidate! This and buy the crap out of it before they decide to stop production of any powder that's working for you!
MAGA! This is the way!
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,149 Likes: 11
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,149 Likes: 11 |
Yep, and just because a certain powder has a very similar burn-rate to another powder doesn't mean they'll work the same in different cartridges, or at different temperatures.
The last is why SAAMI maximum average pressure limits (MAPS) are well under what many handloaders would consider "safe" pressures because they're not seeing any traditional "pressure signs." Pressure can change considerably in different conditions, not just temperature but bore condition.
Which is why anybody who claims 2900+ fps with 180-grain loads are "safe" in their 22-inch barreled .30-06 is FOS, like the "real gunsmith" in his YouTube video that started the other recent thread. (Either that or their chronograph is FOS. Have run into a couple of those since I bought my first chronograph in 1979.)
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 3,056
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 3,056 |
You guys make some very good points ^^^^ Just in my own experience, I had some pressure excursions (as they like to call them) with good old 4320. Every thing is going fine, as powder increases...velocity increases on a nice smooth rising graph...then you reach a point adding powder and the graph goes vertical right now. Maybe that was a factor in discontinuing it, I don't know...but I much lament it's passing. I've had 4320 get a bit sporty on me, too. Love the stuff, but it can get a bit spicy when it's 90+ out and the load was worked up at 60-70° I'm down to my last pound now, so sadly hot days probably won't be an issue with it for me much longer ☹️
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,149 Likes: 11
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,149 Likes: 11 |
zcm82,
Even the latest "temp-resistant" powders will gain some velocity (due to higher pressure) at temperatures over about 80 degrees. But they gain less than "standard" powders.....
The temp-resistant powders really shine in real cold, down around zero or colder. Between around 25-30 and 80 F. just about all available smokeless rifle powders are pretty consistent.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 3,056
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 3,056 |
MD
Yep, the chrono shows pretty significant jumps on hot days with most of my loads on hot days. I am a bit cold blooded in nature, so I generally avoid shooting when it's over 80° or so to avoid melting, but once in a while the itch to burn powder overrides my good sense 😂 4320 was just the only one I'd had give me sticky extraction on hot days. I shoot pretty sedate loads for the most part.
As to cold; not much of an issue down here, but I got into the habit of avoiding ball powders like the plague in stuff much bigger than 223 Rem because of cold weather ignition problems with them when I was living in MN. I just recently cooked up some LeverEvolution loads for my 303 Savage, and that's the first slow burning ball I'd loaded for myself in years.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,549
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,549 |
Just talked with Hodgdon, they told me we won’t be seeing Grand this year.
Imagine that another new product marketed but sorry you won’t see it for another year.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,264
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,264 |
It has been said here by many in the past...but I will repeat, we will rue the day the Hodgdon giant began cannabalizing the competition and sourcing powders all over the world. And when a giant like Hodgdon derives the big money from .gov...they will do whatever is required to keep those big contracts coming. I'm not saying conspiracy...I'm saying we have plenty of historical fact to support the fact that .gov suborns big corporations for political ends. Mandatory mileage and emissions, healthcare, media, carbon extortion, energy production...the track record of .gov is undeniable.
What can we do? Buy brand X from the little manufacturer whenever feasible...and hope the big H doesn't go corporate raider mode?
Whether we want to acknowledge it or not...reloading components are by extension, married to the second amendment. Can't happen here? Russian import shooting supplies were banned by the stroke of a pen. To punish the Russians...or to restrict supply to US citizens? Your choice. Hodgdon’s does not sell powder to “.gov”. They derive their revenues from the sale of powder to the sporting market. Hodgdon has stated such on their website for years. The smokeless powder manufacturers who Hodgdon’s contracts to make their powder does sell to “.gov”. I don’t like it that Hodgdon has gobbled up a huge share of the smokeless powder market in North America either. The sporting market of primers, powder, and ammo make up a very small portion of the total volume—the world’s militaries have been and currently are the biggest buyers and consumers, by far. No conspiracies needed.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,232
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,232 |
I came across a news blurb today where a German defense ministry munitions audit discovered that, based on the Ukrainian experience with munitions consumption, the German army currently has approximately 2 days' worth of small arms ammo stocked.
Me thinks they'll soon be putting in a sizable order for ammo.
It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,124
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,124 |
That might be one more day than the Canadian Army. And we have troops on the front line facing Russians.
You can hunt longer with wind at your back
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,461 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,461 Likes: 1 |
I now pay close attention to the pressures in the manuals. I wish everyone would do this .  But most don't. Many start with the max load right away.  Well, there are "book" loads...  And, then there are Fire loads.... Gotta be a lot more fun living on the "edge"....  DF To borrow from a short verse about air force pilots, There are old reloaders.
There are bold reloaders.
But there are no old, bold reloaders.C'mon Steve, we need some old, bold re-voters in Canada to rid ourselves of the complacent, old Liberal re-voters if we hope to continue with our freedom to reload our own! And that WILL take a BOLD Conservative at the helm! But BOLD and conservative isn't gonna happen in reloading nor in governance! I'm more on the BOLD side of matters in each! Bob www.bigbores.ca
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,536
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,536 |
Forecast bad things as Hodgdons bought everything up.
Was pounded on by naive fan boys.
Didn't have to be Nostradamus to see one company absorbing almost every competing supplier of multiple competing product lines as very bad.
Products were certainly going to be eliminated,
and prices would surely drop.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Yea prices have dropped to about 72.00 per lb here in the local gunshop for the "Extreme" powders.....
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